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Old 10-14-2004, 11:51 PM   #26
thomas_dixon
Location: Florida, USA
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Re: acceptance

I agree with peter.

While you say Aikido is good exercise and all, it is not the best exercise for pregnant women. Even cutting back on Aikido wouldn't help..If getting a perm, bleaching your hair, using anti-lice medicine, smoking, etc. would all hurt a developing child, Aikido could do a lot of damage.

Good common sense would say a non-violent (which whether you'd agree or not, getting thrown to a mat is in some sense violent IMO) exercise, like exercise classes for pregnant women (which there are many) would help her stay fit much better.

Quote:
Secondly, IMO it is not your position to choose what a pregnant woman does or does not do during her pregnancy.
This is why i said it was my opinion. I don't know this woman, how could I tell her how to live her life? She asked how people would feel, and I answered my honest opinion, that I would not train with her, because If I knew I was at fault for causing a miscarriage because of my ignorence in the matter, I'd have to live with that for the rest of my life.

I'm sorry if I offend with with any of my previous statements, or what I'm about to say, but if you trained pregnant, I could not and would not support you in any way. You're doing more harm to yourself and the baby than good, and even though it is your body, it doesn't mean anyone has to support you for what you do with it, especially if it's an inane act. Do you support a crack addict who continues to do anything for drugs? No...You support a crack addict who does their best in realizing their situation and trying to become rehabilitized. Same with pregnant women. When you realize that doing Aikido becomes a purely selfish act, as in the long run it benefits neither of you, then you stop, have the baby, then continue Aikido. This as once stated is my opinion.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:23 AM   #27
Tricia Escobedo
Dojo: Dogwood Aikikai
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Ki Symbol Re: acceptance

Hi anonymous.. I am a shodan at Dogwood Aikikai in Atlanta, where I have practiced for nearly 7 years. I am four months pregnant and am still training. Here's my two cents on the whole pregnancy thing:

I understand your concern regarding not telling your fellow aikidoka. I went through the same thing. Earlier this year, my husband who is a nidan at the same dojo was terribly worried about an errant tsuki to my belly so I decided to tell early (9 weeks) and then had a miscarriage the next week. Just what I was trying to avoid! But my dojo is my family and they were incredibly supportive. Of course the miscarriage had nothing to do with aikido and is very common, as you know, especially with first pregnancies.

My opinion -- if you are at three months, you are just about out of the 1st trimester and your miscarriage chances have already decreased, especially if you have heard or seen the baby's heartbeat. If -- God forbid --you do have a miscarriage, have a friend or your instructor tell your dojo because you will be too emotional to announce it yourself. But I would tell, just my opinion. Good thing is you told your instructor, which is most important.

This pregnancy, I still practice but not as regularly. Maybe 1-2 times a week. Our dojo has a soft mat and we practice hard falls. For me, no breakfalls, no koshi throws, and limited front/back rolls, just as a precaution. I concentrate on not getting overworked and if my heart rate is too high, I take a break.

I continue to teach class once a week which is, of course, easy on the body. I decided to take up Iaido (art of drawing the sword) to help complement my aikido. That gets me in the dojo and active with no ukemi. I am enjoying that tremendously.

I am very comfortable as a senior student setting my own pace during class, as all our instructors and students are very understanding. If I am tired, I tell sensei and sit out that technique or the rest of class for that matter.

I do not feel like I am taking away from anyone's practice. It is much easier when the dojo is aware of your condition. The guys that are training for upper kyu tests next month -- and need to throw -- do not work with me as often. And that is fine. They need a strong uke and that ain't me. I choose my techniques more carefully than my partners as we have a great dojo and anyone who may feel uncomfortable working with me has every right to bow into someone else. I don't care, that is their right.

Aikido is for everyone and if your condition takes away from someone's practice, they have many other partners to chose from. You shouldn't worry so much about their training.

I've read many posts on this and heard everything from women who quit training to women who practically give birth on the mat. I think it also has a lot to do with how advanced you are in the martial art -- that is, if you are still a beginner you might want to take it easier. This being my first (successful) pregnancy, I'm going to play it by ear. I am waiting to hear back from a former female aikidoka and see what her experiences were with her 3 pregnancies. Please feel free to email me -- dishies@excite.com -- I'd love to compare notes as it is hard to find a fellow aikidoka that is expecting

And congratulations!

Last edited by Tricia Escobedo : 10-15-2004 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:52 AM   #28
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
It becomes a greater problem when we're talking about my partner during the injury - that's exactly the burden I was talking about when I've started the thread. I will never blame someone for an accident (they do happen, as we all know), but he/she might feel responsible for it and that's the hard point. We'll both have to live with my decision to practice and the consequences of it, but I'll be the one that laid it on him/her… Not an easy thing.
This is exactly why I think it is your training partners' right to be informed, so they can make a choice - if they want to play on the extremely safe side, ten times more carefully than you think is necessary, they should have the right to do so.

Quote:
PeterR wrote:
Yes activity is good for pregnant women but breakfalls and other components of training can be quite extreme, especially in some dojos.

As much as a woman has a right to continue to exercise anyone (and why does it sound like you are assuming its a man making the decision) can decide that they do not want to risk hurting a developing child or anyone for that matter. In actual fact tori should be making that decision with everyone they practice with every time they do a technique.

It hasn't happened yet but if a visibly pregnant woman came to my group, based on the intensity of the practice, I would strongly suggest another form of exercise even if they were used to our form of Aikido training. Take the time to explore something else.
Everywhere I've trained, it has been OK to train without breakfalls... and some people have not done them, for various reasons (fear, age, injury). How well it works to adapt training to various conditions, probably depends a lot on how the training in the dojo is. This might have something to do with style of Aikido, but at least as much it depends on the practitioners. In a group of young competitive males adaptation to training with injury or pregnancy is probably quite a bit more difficult than in a group where some people have reached their 50s.

I also agree on what has been said, that a more experienced practitioner often finds it more easy to adapt training. I usually advice beginners to stop training when injured, as they'll learn all forms of bad habits while trying to protect their weak joint for instance. More advanced practitioners are more able to make case-by-case decisions.

Last edited by Hanna B : 10-15-2004 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 10-15-2004, 03:02 AM   #29
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
The fact is, due to the nature of our training style there are some areas that elderly folks, pregnant folks etc. just cannot participate in. For this reason we have separate testing syllabi for women and elderly Dan grades. For things like resistance randori especially, these folks are advised to take a rest or practice kata if they are unable to handle the intensity.
You have separate testing syllabi for women because they might be pregnant?!? Or they always have different testing requiremensts - what is the reason for this?
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Old 10-15-2004, 03:04 AM   #30
"anonymous"
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Re: acceptance

I hear you all and everything you say, from the reserved to the supportive, is true simply because that's your own opinion. I wasn't trying to convince anyone that I'm doing the right thing, but to get different opinions on the subject.
The decision to keep practicing wasn't in advance - in the first pregnancy you don't know what to expect, so I was glad to learn about myself that I'm able to continue practicing with no physical discomfort and even with great enjoyment. It still feels so good!
I followed my doctor's advice - he said that pregnancy ain't a disease and I'm not sick. What was good for my health before the pregnancy is good for me now, as long as I don't over do it. So Thomas, it's not the same as smoking, which is never good for your body, pregnant or not.
I don't know for how long I will keep practicing, but if I do go on - it certainly won't be out of selfishness. Aikido suits us all, right? It's the people who don't necessarily suits to other people...
Yesterday I went to an important medical check and all seems well (thank God), so today I'm going to tell the Dojo. It's a big day for me.
I don't know how will they react, but I'm confidence that the Aikidokas that will continue to practice with me will share the same harmony as before (though a slower one).
Hanna - I'm 2nd kyu now. Do you call it experienced enough?
Tricia - Congratulations, my fellow to the experience, I'll contact you shortly
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Old 10-15-2004, 03:11 AM   #31
PeterR
 
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Re: acceptance

Hi Hanna;

Well I'm the oldest at 42 and ages range between that and 17. The Shodokan training style is pretty much group driven. Opting out here and there is quite disruptive. Still you will find me quite accommodating to individual needs but I must balance this out with what's best for the group.

The other consideration is that I am responsible for any and all injuries. Whether that be broken bones, heart attacks or miscarriages. I have to make a risk assessment and consider if its a risk I am willing to take.

Last edited by PeterR : 10-15-2004 at 03:13 AM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-15-2004, 04:02 AM   #32
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
The Shodokan training style is pretty much group driven. Opting out here and there is quite disruptive.
This is quite different to how I have trained, so I guess things like this is a bigger obstacle in Shodokan environments (or your Shodokan environment, at least) than in many others. How dojos differ with the age and walk of life of the dojo population is interesting, though. I find that I seldome thrive in dojos dominated by young males, for a variety of reasons. But that's another thread.

Quote:
Hanna - I'm 2nd kyu now. Do you call it experienced enough?
anon, ranks can mean many different things in different places. Less than two years of regular training I would say people should realise that they can not really judge how training can be adapted, over that I guess it is individual...
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:44 AM   #33
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: acceptance

I haven't got anything to add, really, except for congratulations! I just suddenly thought of the fact that almost half of our dojo membership consist of women in their early thirties...I'm surprised that we haven't had any pregnancies yet!

kvaak
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:57 PM   #34
GaiaM
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Re: acceptance

Peter and all,
It sounds like your dojo, and perhaps all Shodokan dojos, is quite different than those that many of us train in. At my dojo we have people up to age 70 and down to 10 all in the same classes. Practice is generally partner based (so if I'm working with a yudansha it's fast and strong, if a beginner or injured or older it's slower and gentler) and when it's groups sensei often asks us to split according to rank or ability. So it sounds like we are perhaps both in the right... At your dojo it would not be appropriate for a pregnant woman to train and at mine it would.
I certainly respect the right of nage (tori) to bow out of training with someone if they were uncomfortable, but in my dojo i would expect that anyone who was past the beginner stage would be able to adapt their training to be safe and respectful. Also, opting out of a technique or just sitting out for a while is not disruptive (although not encouraged for healthy young folks). We have an elderly member who often sits out close to half of class. We all enjoy training with him and no one feels put out.
I'd be curious to hear from other Shodokan folks if these differences are true across the board.
Gaia

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Old 10-15-2004, 09:07 PM   #35
L. Camejo
 
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
You have separate testing syllabi for women because they might be pregnant?!? Or they always have different testing requiremensts - what is the reason for this?
Hi Hanna,

The difference in testing requirements for Dan grades apply to "Women and older people" on the part of the syllabus that requires freeplay which goes from zero resistance to high resistance depending on which test is being done (tanto kakari geiko, hiki tate geiko or tanto randori geiko in increasing order of difficulty). In these situations the women and elderly folks got to do extra kata for their grading instead of the free play element. My website has the syllabus here. If you look at any of the Dan syllabi you will see the
"women and older people" specifications.

The reason for this is because the resistance tanto randori is like practice for competition as well and requires a certain degree of fitness, mental and physical strength and flexibility, technical skill and martial spirit to be successful at it. It can be very taxing on the body after a while. Peter may have the exact and official reason as to the reason for the 2 different syllabi, but this has been my experience.

Gaia, as far as other Shodokan dojos go, in ours we tend to train in kata much like any other dojo you'd find. The actual techniques may be slightly different but the way of practicing slowly and with cooperation to get the techniques correct is the same. I think Peter's is similar if not the same. The change comes when we start to practice freeplay, especially what we call randori, which involves much resistance and constant countering of techniques in a strong effort to throw your partner without being thrown yourself.

In these situations, there is no such thing as being thrown "softly" your Ukemi skills must be spot on. Like Peter indicated above, allowing people to practice in these sort of conditions, whether pregnant or not becomes a risk to be assessed by the instructor, other issues may also cause a person to be unable to partake in this sort of practice. I have on many occasions been asked by students who were either aged or unfit to sit out randori sessions as they became winded, dizzy etc. from the rapid movement. In my dojo, I may allow pregnant women to train in kata practice with no ukemi, but not at all in free play. Again it comes down to the risk assessment.

Just my thoughts.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 10-16-2004, 03:31 AM   #36
PeterR
 
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Re: acceptance

I have no problem with people bowing out of practice if they have difficulty - half a class is better than none. We also adjust quite a bit to the skill level/condition of your partner but there are limits. A point where its best to bow out and not practice.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-16-2004, 06:57 PM   #37
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
The reason for this is because the resistance tanto randori is like practice for competition as well and requires a certain degree of fitness, mental and physical strength and flexibility, technical skill and martial spirit to be successful at it. It can be very taxing on the body after a while.
Fitness, mental and physical strength, flexibility, technical skill, martial spirit... all of which women are supposed to have less of? You and me surely live in different worlds! I could understand if one picked female or at least small stature men for women, though.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:32 PM   #38
L. Camejo
 
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Fitness, mental and physical strength, flexibility, technical skill, martial spirit... all of which women are supposed to have less of? You and me surely live in different worlds! I could understand if one picked female or at least small stature men for women, though.
Hey Hanna,

This is my interpretation of what I see on the Shodokan syllabus that comes from Shodokan Honbu in Japan. It is not my rule. I admit that my interpretation of why they put this condition in can be wrong, but it is there, and there probably is a reason for it, else I may just have an old version of the testing syllabus and it may be that this situation no longer applies. As I indicated before, maybe Peter Rehse or Hori, who are physically close to Shodokan Honbu may be able to shed some more light on the subject. The distinction may have been made for women because at the time women did not compete in the Shiai portion of tournament, I don't know the official reason.

A similar condition is also placed on the Shodokan Honbu website here the only difference is that women and older people are allowed to be Tori, but not Uke, and this is only for Shodan which tests Tanto Kakari Geiko (lowest level of randori against tanto as practiced in most styles) and tanto hiki tate geiko which is the medium level, including light to medium resistance by the person with the tanto. Having only now seen this I will edit my syllabus to suit, but the rule hasn't changed that much.

On another note of my experience with this, I have yet to see women and older people (as indicated in the Shodokan syllabus) as well as young vibrant members of many other Aikido flavours stand up to the rigours of Tanto Randorigeiko without extensive practice and physical/technical training in this method of training. It may just be my experience as I am sure there are not that many physical factors that can affect the performance of a man over a woman or vice versa (though US Naval Special Warfare Command may disagree with me). However, pregnancy is one of those factors, hence the reason I don't let them take part in freeplay. It's safer for all involved.

Oh and I can assure you we live in the same world.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:36 AM   #39
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

No, our training worlds are not the same. I am sorry.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
However, pregnancy is one of those factors, hence the reason I don't let them take part in freeplay. It's safer for all involved.
The possibility that I might possible get pregnant once or twice in my life affecting my training all of my life? Gee. This is the only time I have heard of something similar.

If I am on the pill, will that affect how I am allowed to train? If I have a (what is it called, some coppar stuff in the womb to prevent a fertilised egg to implant)? If I have a sterilisation performed? Come on, this is absurd.

Probably this follows logically from the "group centered" approach, where everyone is supposed to train the same - if you make an exception, you must have a group that can have the same exception. I much much rather train in environments where things are adapted on bases of the individual, not on gender or either easily determined subgroup of the human species that you belong to...

Last edited by Hanna B : 10-17-2004 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 10-17-2004, 08:49 AM   #40
"anonymous"
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Re: acceptance

Mission accomplished!
At the end of the practice on Friday (which was surprisingly crowded) I set in front of my Dojo and revealed my condition. The experience itself was a bit embarrassing, but liberating… Anyway, everybody were amazing about it.
I'm constantly looking for ways to adjust my training to my physical condition - today I'm helping in the kids class and I'm thinking about putting more effort into my weapon training.
Hanna - you can never feel too confident (it might cause carelessness), but after 3 years of continuous practice, I know my abilities enough to make the choice and feel comfortable with it.
Paullina - thanks, I believe that that it will happen in your Dojo sooner then you think...
Larry - it's very interesting to hear your side of the story. My Dojo is more like Hanna's Dojo - we have people from all ranges of sex, age and ability. That makes my situation much more acceptable then in a Dojo like yours. But to be honest - I would rather not be cataloged, but to be given the opportunity to choose what kind of training suits me. Grouping can be good (for example: beginners and advanced), but grouping by sex/age sounds too totalitarian to me. My 2 cents.
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Old 10-17-2004, 06:58 PM   #41
sarah07
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Re: acceptance

Congratulations to those expecting! I hope all goes well whether you are training, pursuing other activities or opting out for a few months.

As far as my 2 cents is concerned - I can understand completely a womans right to have control of her own body and also think it is an excellent idea to keep up with as much exercise as is possible and safe. If one can find a dojo willing to accomodate and work with a pregnant woman, no problem (although I think it is important for all memebers to be aware of the pregnancy after a certain point).

If however, a dojo is not willing to accomodate pregnant women due to the style or intensity of training, group ethic or possible risks involved then I think this must be respected. At the end of the day the responsibility lies with the dojo-cho as often they are the ones held responsible if something were to happen. Albiet a tough call to make....


[quote=Hanna Björk]

Everywhere I've trained, it has been OK to train without breakfalls... and some people have not done them, for various reasons (fear, age, injury). How well it works to adapt training to various conditions, probably depends a lot on how the training in the dojo is. This might have something to do with style of Aikido, but at least as much it depends on the practitioners. In a group of young competitive males adaptation to training with injury or pregnancy is probably quite a bit more difficult than in a group where some people have reached their 50s.

QUOTE]

I have not been training long at all, but even so I can not imagine practicing Aikido without following through with a breakfall when taking ukemi in techniques where it is required. It was one of the very first things I learnt (and am still learning, as my abdominal muscles will attest..!) and it soon becomes apparent that in order to participate effectively in randori you need to have your ukemi up to scratch.

I think the difference possibly has more to do with the 'style' than the 'practitioners' as there are few styles outside of Shodokan that include randori in their practice, although I am no expert.

Lastly, Peter's Shodokan Himeji dojo where I have started my training is by no means exclusively comprised of 'young, competitive males'. We have an increasing number of women participating regularly and the dojo environment is not intimidating in the least. Rather, everyone gets along with respect, consideration, focus and the attitude that we are working together, not against each other.

We also like to throw in a little humour, for good measure


-Sarah Moon
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Old 10-17-2004, 07:14 PM   #42
PeterR
 
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Re: acceptance

Now this is getting silly (quick edit to point out that Sarah posted just before I did).

The Shodokan syllabus is a product of Japanese society which in many ways is far more accommodating than Western societies. The operative word is the syllabus is may - meaning the option exists. Honbu dojo accommodates anything from teenage to sixties, male or female. In all my years I have seen someone opt out of the randori component in a test below sandan only twice - once a woman, once a man. A young fit lady, and trust me they are there in droves, is expected to do and does randori. The way its written in the syllabus is I suspect the easiest way in Japanese to suggest that there is room in the Shodokan family for the less gung ho. The English is just a direct translation.

Hanna - we are talking about pregnancy not method of birth control.

Last edited by PeterR : 10-17-2004 at 07:17 PM.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-17-2004, 07:41 PM   #43
PeterR
 
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Re: acceptance

In an ongoing attempt to get a good representative picture of current dojo members we are taking them every practice. We are missing a few people from the picture taken last Saturday (we have 20 members) but - well I take umbrage at having my views and style of Aikido being pegged as nothing but testosterone driven under 30 young men.

I've up-loaded the picture to the Image galleries - subdirectory Dojo images - and waiting for Jun to approve. For the impatient you can also go to our Dojo Homepage - shown below - which has older picis.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-17-2004, 10:03 PM   #44
L. Camejo
 
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Lastly, Peter's Shodokan Himeji dojo where I have started my training is by no means exclusively comprised of 'young, competitive males'. We have an increasing number of women participating regularly and the dojo environment is not intimidating in the least. Rather, everyone gets along with respect, consideration, focus and the attitude that we are working together, not against each other.
We also like to throw in a little humour, for good measure
Thank you soo much for posting Sarah, you have added a very unique point of view here for us. The post you made that I have quoted above also explains exactly how we train at our dojo. The women in our class, though not at black belt level yet, perform very well in all aspects of training and are among some of the most proficient and longest lasting members of our dojo. If we had a testosterone driven drill camp I'd think they'd be long gone.

Quote:
Now this is getting silly
I can't agree more.

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
The possibility that I might possible get pregnant once or twice in my life affecting my training all of my life? ....

If I am on the pill, will that affect how I am allowed to train? If I have a (what is it called, some coppar stuff in the womb to prevent a fertilised egg to implant)? If I have a sterilisation performed? Come on, this is absurd.
It is very interesting how individual perception works imo. How some people can see not allowing women who are pregnant to train in hard resistance randori for their own safety as an attack on all women and their ability to train for their whole life, bringing into the mix things like contraception and other medical procedures that have absolutely nothing to do with the point being discussed, Aikido, the dojo or the price of gas imo. It amazes me how you utilised a very innocent post to launch a crusade on women and wider social issues that obviously affect you very much. It is becoming evident that you have some deep seated issues regarding this concept Hanna and it has affected your perception of one of my earlier posts to the point where you may have misconceived the training method we employ totally.

The same rule I apply to my pregnant students I apply to my students who have serious injuries that are in the process of healing. In our dojo safety comes first regardless of how much you think you can handle. When folks snap joints, break bones and get other injuries in class I always have to ask myself if it could have been prevented and how it can be avoided in future, their safety to a very large extent (if not totally) is my responsibility. A major part of that is pre empting situations that can result in injury. Regardless of how good a pregnant student thought they were I would not allow them to (even remotely) possibly endanger their unborn child. If men got pregnant the same rule would apply.

Quote:
I much much rather train in environments where things are adapted on bases of the individual, not on gender or either easily determined subgroup of the human species that you belong to...
This is exactly how we train. The pregnancy/training intensity question is taken on a case by case basis. There are those who may be able to partake in randori while pregnant, but as a law they do not receive falls. As I indicated earlier, how one perceives things may be coloured by how one has experienced things in the past. We do not victimise women because they are pregnant Hanna, If you feel this is what we do I am sorry. Like Peter eloquently indicated, I really don't appreciate my Aikido being labelled as a testosterone driven under 30 boys club.

Anon: I am happy all worked out well at your dojo and I wish the best of health to you and the baby.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 10-18-2004, 09:57 AM   #45
Qatana
 
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Re: acceptance

[quote=Larry Camejo]Hi Hanna,

The difference in testing requirements for Dan grades apply to "Women and older people" on the part of the syllabus that requires freeplay which goes from zero resistance to high resistance depending on which test is being done (tanto kakari geiko, hiki tate geiko or tanto randori geiko in increasing order of difficulty). In these situations the women and elderly folks got to do extra kata for their grading instead of the free play element. My website has the syllabus here. If you look at any of the Dan syllabi you will see the
"women and older people" specifications.

The reason for this is because the resistance tanto randori is like practice for competition as well and requires a certain degree of fitness, mental and physical strength and flexibility, technical skill and martial spirit to be successful at it. It can be very taxing on the body after a while. Peter may have the exact and official reason as to the reason for the 2 different syllabi, but this has been my experience."

I do not see the word "pregnant" anywhere in this statement. And if my 74 year old teacher was told he was not Allowed to participate in randori or anything else in the dojobecause of his "age" i'm sure a few asses would be kicked in short order.

Q
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Old 10-18-2004, 12:36 PM   #46
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

Qatana, why do you quote almost an entire post to prove that the word "pregnant" does not exist in it, only to omit the sentence
Quote:
However, pregnancy is one of those factors
? I can not see this as a very sincere method of discussing.

Peter, Larry originally posted that the syllabuses were different - no "may" there. If the "may" was clearly esplained later, then I missed that and apologise. Describing it as optional certainly gives a nicer sound to it, but this was not how it was originally described. Also, if you can make exception for women, for older men - why not for different handicaps, for personality, for any reason? Then we are IMO discussing individual treatment.

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote:
Like Peter eloquently indicated, I really don't appreciate my Aikido being labelled as a testosterone driven under 30 boys club.
Now I did not say that, did I. But yes, the system you outlined seems to me like better fitted for a pretty homogenous group. If that is a misunderstanding, well then it is.

I originally wrote about different dojo populations, Peter got into talking about the Shodokan system and I agreed he might have a point; there might be a difference also between styles, not only between different dojo populations. I still do think there are - no, I have experienced the huge difference between training in mixed dojo population and in dojos where most everyone is 20-25 and male! This is a separate issue, I am sorry if I was unclear here.

When you are saying I confuse pregnance with methods of birth control - yes you are right, this is getting silly. I do not think I have to explain that my point of course was that it is extremely silly to have pregnancy in consideration for a woman who actually is not pregnant, nor in risk of becoming so. I was answering Larry, not you, and he clearly stated that
Quote:
pregnancy is one of those factors
that would explain the different testing syllabuses, and as an explanation as to why he does not let women take part of "free play" (randori, I suppose).

Well well, I guess we've travelled this road just about to its end...

Last edited by Hanna B : 10-18-2004 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 10-18-2004, 12:43 PM   #47
Hanna B
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Re: acceptance

Back to topic... anon, good to hear that it seems to work out for you!
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Old 10-18-2004, 04:38 PM   #48
Qatana
 
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Re: acceptance

Hanna-

because i was only quoting those two paragraphs. The criteria for "different" testing says "women & older people" in the paragraph i quoted. Nothing about "pregnant" women.That was all i was saying.
Why do you feel the need to correct something that completely agrees with your position in the matter?

Q
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Old 10-18-2004, 05:23 PM   #49
thomas_dixon
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Re: acceptance

Theres no point in trying to open a closed mind if someones holding it shut.

I hope the best for you and your child, Good Luck!
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Old 10-18-2004, 05:51 PM   #50
L. Camejo
 
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Qatana, why do you quote almost an entire post to prove that the word "pregnant" does not exist in it, only to omit the sentence

? I can not see this as a very sincere method of discussing.
Agreed Hanna. It is great to discuss concepts with someone who maintains the integrity of the forum of communication. If one has a valid point one does not have to misquote someone to make it more valid.

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Peter, Larry originally posted that the syllabuses were different - no "may" there. If the "may" was clearly esplained later, then I missed that and apologise. Describing it as optional certainly gives a nicer sound to it, but this was not how it was originally described. Also, if you can make exception for women, for older men - why not for different handicaps, for personality, for any reason? Then we are IMO discussing individual treatment.
I agree eith your points above Hanna. Firstly, I tend to defer to whatever Peter says regarding the Shodokan syllabus, since he is in direct contact with at least one of the people who should have been responsible for creating it imo. So I would trust his info over mine any day. As I indicated in an earlier post, it is very possible that my interpretation of what was written on the syllabus may be incorrect. Secondly, your point about making exceptions for some groups does raise the question of "If for one or two groups, why not others?" and this makes perfect sense to me as well, hence my request from Peter or someone in the know to get the "official" reason. I think the reasons Peter gave should be taken at a higher level of correctness than mine regarding official Shodokan stuff.

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
When you are saying I confuse pregnance with methods of birth control - yes you are right, this is getting silly. I do not think I have to explain that my point of course was that it is extremely silly to have pregnancy in consideration for a woman who actually is not pregnant, nor in risk of becoming so. I was answering Larry, not you, and he clearly stated that that would explain the different testing syllabuses, and as an explanation as to why he does not let women take part of "free play" (randori, I suppose).
Your earlier post makes perfect sense to me now Hanna and I see your point as it pertains to the different syllabus for Women and Older people. As I indicated in my previous post, I do allow women to take part in free play (in our training there are 3 basic levels of randori which I tend to group collectively as "free play") and I also indicated that they are pretty good at it. It's the pregnant ones that I don't allow for reasons of safety primarily, not because I think they are not skilled enough or unable or unwilling to do it.

I think in the end we were talking about similar concepts but from different perspectives, coupled with some miscommunication in some places. It's all good though.

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Well well, I guess we've travelled this road just about to its end...
Agreed.

Quote:
Qatana wrote:
And if my 74 year old teacher was told he was not Allowed to participate in randori or anything else in the dojobecause of his "age" i'm sure a few asses would be kicked in short order.
This may likely be the case, but please please remember that when we say Randori it is absolutely nothing like what the rest of the Aikido world calls randori. There is no cooperation or taking of falls unless one is comprehensively put down after seriously resisting, attempting counters and techniques of his own at full force with full intent of putting his partner down as well. If your teacher could handle it at 74, I'd say more power to him. Even though the words are written on the syllabus, as Peter indicated, there are many women and older students who have been able to do the full force randori syllabus instead of the kata one.

Peace all.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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