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Old 08-14-2018, 05:06 AM   #26
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
When self-defense stops, fighting occurs. That's why you'd better know both. Aikido, at least by Ueshiba, isn't a self-defense martial art.
Honestly, why do you think Aikido is not a self defense martial art?

Do you feel that there was a time in Osensei's life when Aikido was martial and was used as self defense and Osensei decided to practice it for a different reason?

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:26 PM   #27
sorokod
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Honestly, why do you think Aikido is not a self defense martial art?

Do you feel that there was a time in Osensei's life when Aikido was martial and was used as self defense and Osensei decided to practice it for a different reason?

dps
Can you articulate what you mean by "self defence martial art" and how Aikido is that?

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Old 08-14-2018, 12:29 PM   #28
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

I will throw out a couple of comments (that I am pretty sure I have said before)...

Self-defense is a legal concept, largely in the US. It's an affirmative defense (justification) for acts against others. We have socialized the phrase to imply a greater presence in the world than maybe actually is. Fighting is fighting; "self-defense" is an excuse about why you fought.

Aikido is not self-defense. That is, because one trains in aikido does not make one ultimately in a state of "self-defense". This kind of rhetoric has (and continues) to misinform people about aikido and I am not a fan of the inclusion of self-defense into statements about aikido.

I think there is pretty firm language that O Sensei said that points to a consistent message that aikido is a individual pursuit of training, from which stems values that we identify as passive in nature (i.e. non-violent, defensive, etc.). That we personally take that message and further imply that preservative = self-defense is on us. Aikido is a training methodology to teach the body how to move; overlapping that training is a philosophy that helps to place our movement in context.

The conversation reminds me of the medical creed, Primum non nocere (first, do no harm). From a simple statement come a myriad of extrapolated perspectives. Aikido is similar in the sense that our individual interpretation of a statement is based on our personal ability to support that statement. I think we rely far too much on a claim to ethos that does not originate in ourselves.

Last edited by jonreading : 08-14-2018 at 12:33 PM.

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Old 08-14-2018, 02:28 PM   #29
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Can you articulate what you mean by "self defence martial art" and how Aikido is that?
"The Aikido that I first saw being demonstrated by Abbe Sensei in 1956 was without doubt a positive martial art.
I was immediately impressed by its positive techniques and power, and in those days my fellow martial artists and I were in no doubt that we were witnessing a devastating new form of self-defence as demonstrated by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei."

"Is Aikido a Martial Art?"
Sensei Henry Ellis - 2001
http://www.ellisaikido.org/isaikmart.html

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-14-2018, 05:27 PM   #30
sorokod
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
"The Aikido that I first saw being demonstrated by Abbe Sensei in 1956 was without doubt a positive martial art.
I was immediately impressed by its positive techniques and power, and in those days my fellow martial artists and I were in no doubt that we were witnessing a devastating new form of self-defence as demonstrated by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei."

"Is Aikido a Martial Art?"
Sensei Henry Ellis - 2001
http://www.ellisaikido.org/isaikmart.html

dps
It is till not clear to me what you mean by self defence martial art. What qualities it has , what qualities it has not. Perhaps a comparison to a martial art that is "not self defence". That kind of thing.

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Old 08-14-2018, 06:21 PM   #31
shizentai
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

IMO the common-sense definition of a self-defense martial art, would be a martial art that would be useful in a situation like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHdyzo5X6Nc

Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6HFSr8Nkos

Or perhaps this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wO0u4QW0pk
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Old 08-15-2018, 01:59 AM   #32
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
It is till not clear to me what you mean by self defence martial art. What qualities it has , what qualities it has not. Perhaps a comparison to a martial art that is "not self defence". That kind of thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:28 AM   #33
RonRagusa
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido is effective self-defense because we deal with what is, here, now: not what should be or what could be or what we want it to be.

Aikido helps us cut through the denial, minimization, and rationalization.

Our minds, bodies and spirits come together in the moment.

By practicing being here, now, we develop awareness for when something feels off.

We learn to believe ourselves.

We pay attention and most importantly we stay, with what is, here, now.

Aikido is effective self-defense because we are awake. We can do what we need to do to stay safe.
Aikido training helps cultivate the skills above, all of which are necessary for self defense. In addition Aikido practice will enhance all the physical skills commonly associated with being able to defend one's self.

Ron

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Old 08-15-2018, 09:05 AM   #34
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Honestly, why do you think Aikido is not a self defense martial art
Because it's quite evident from all of the available resources that Aikido wasn't meant to be a "passive-aggressive" martial discipline. For instance O'sensei always advocated for the initiation of techniques from Nage's side.

Quote:
Do you feel that there was a time in Osensei's life when Aikido was martial and was used as self defense and Osensei decided to practice it for a different reason?
I don't understand this question?

Last edited by MrIggy : 08-15-2018 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:27 AM   #35
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Because it's quite evident from all of the available resources that Aikido wasn't meant to be a "passive-aggressive" martial discipline. For instance O'sensei always advocated for the initiation of techniques from Nage's side.

I don't understand this question?
OK thank you.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:32 AM   #36
dps
 
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Aikido is effective self-defense because we deal with what is, here, now: not what should be or what could be or what we want it to be.

Aikido helps us cut through the denial, minimization, and rationalization.

Our minds, bodies and spirits come together in the moment.

Maybe later we can talk about what we should have done or what could have happened.

By practicing being here, now, we develop awareness for when something feels off. Our neck hairs may prickle or our ears pick up a strange vibration. Maybe the air smells different or we catch a flash out of the corner of our eye…or maybe we notice a change of tone or nuance of body language.

We learn to believe ourselves.

We pay attention and most importantly we stay, with what is, here, now.

Aikido is effective self-defense because we are awake. We can do what we need to do to stay safe. The situation will provide the details we need to get to resolution and safety.
"There is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the present moment. A man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. There will be nothing else to do, and nothing else to pursue. Live being true to the single purpose of the moment."

― Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 08-15-2018, 11:52 AM   #37
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews/interviews.html
The following interview, conducted by two unnamed newspapermen, appeared in the Japanese-language text Aikido by Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Tokyo, Kowado, 1957, pages 198-219. It was translated from the Japanese by Stanley Pranin and Katsuaki Terasawa.

Quote:
"In Aikido, there is absolutely no attack. To attack means that the spirit has already lost. We adhere to the principle of absolute nonresistance, that is to say, we do not oppose the attacker. Thus, there is no opponent in Aikido. The victory in Aikido is masakatsu and agatsu; since you win over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven, you possess absolute strength."
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Old 08-15-2018, 05:25 PM   #38
sorokod
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Re: Aikido is effective self-defense

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David Skaggs wrote: View Post
What a fantastic resource! You may find this very interesting as well: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=martial%20arts

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