How do i know when i can feel KI?

Hansel Wong wrote: Perhaps it would be better to say that Ki is something limited to physical expression. Or at least, restricted to the boundaries of the flesh and bone in this particular instance because O'sensei was still limited to the weaknesses of the human body, despite his skill.

Humans have many tools for action and perception beyond the limits of their physical bodies. It's not "woo woo" nonsense to observe that some actors and singers can make an emotional connection with the people in the back row, and some can't. It's not "supernatural" to catch someone's attention and communicate non-verbally across a crowded room.

There's also plenty of evidence that humans can detect and respond to stimuli below the level of conscious thought. Did you "decide" to shiver when a cold draft blew across your neck?

There is nothing in the universe that is non-physical, by definition. But there are plenty of phenomena that are difficult to measure or explain without sophisticated instrumentation.

Katherine

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: If you really want to go down this road, I think you ignore the role of gravity at your peril. Both the potential energy stored up by lifting oneself from horizontal to standing, and the kinetic energy released when one's structure is undermined and one falls down. Katherine

Kinetic energy generated from dropping one's weight is still kinetic energy. And when dropped through a broken structure could result in a throw or takedown. So yeah, gravity only works when something is falling, falling is kinetic energy as well.

Katherine Derbyshire wrote: Humans have many tools for action and perception beyond the limits of their physical bodies. It's not "woo woo" nonsense to observe that some actors and singers can make an emotional connection with the people in the back row, and some can't. It's not "supernatural" to catch someone's attention and communicate non-verbally across a crowded room. There's also plenty of evidence that humans can detect and respond to stimuli below the level of conscious thought. Did you "decide" to shiver when a cold draft blew across your neck? There is nothing in the universe that is non-physical, by definition. But there are plenty of phenomena that are difficult to measure or explain without sophisticated instrumentation. Katherine

Perhaps, but I believe that all this phenomena are a result of the mind and body working together to a degree that we can't compute or scientifically comprehend yet. It is limited to the physical in the sense that it is the human body being developed and integrated to a greater degree through training and knowledge, rather than supernatural forces or outside intervention as it were.

Ki is a bucket word, so I think we need to circle the wagons about the meaning for [each of us]. For me, the conversation of converting potential energy to kinetic efficiently is a better conversation. "ki flow" is more of a conversation about the conversion process and its effects on your body and that which comes into contact with you.

I think as you migrate the conversation to an ethereal discussion, you lose the physical anchor that is a body feeling. Maybe it's real, maybe it ain't; but if you can't demonstrate your perspective of ki, you probably shouldn't be professing about it. I think that is part of the difficulty of this thread - it is constrained around a physical feeling to associate with ki... which is exactly the opposite of how most people want to talk about ki. It's much safer when ki is something that can't be measured... Then everybody can do it.

http://www.aikido-maastricht.nl/inde...nterview-tohei

this is the founder of Ki Aikido talking about Ki, and O Sensei. My own experience with a student of Koichi Tohei was that Ki was not something ethereal.

" I’ve always urged aikido people to avoid writing things like that. Unfortunately many people don’t seem to listen... Such things are nothing but exaggerations of the kind often used in old-fashioned storytelling.
The stories have gotten rather incredible since Ueshiba Sensei passed away, and now people are having him moving instantaneously or reappearing suddenly from a kilometer away and other nonsense. I was with Ueshiba Sensei for a long time and can tell you that he possessed no supernatural powers."

Tohei also talks about the Mind leading the Body (and the Ki follows is how other martial arts would finish this).

If there is no qualitative change at the physical level, no change in ability to receive or issue mundane forces, then there is nothing to differentiate feeling Ki and hallucinating. In Tohei's aikido, his Ki testing looking for physically palpable changes.

Hansel Wong wrote: Perhaps, but I believe that all this phenomena are a result of the mind and body working together to a degree that we can't compute or scientifically comprehend yet. It is limited to the physical in the sense that it is the human body being developed and integrated to a greater degree through training and knowledge, rather than supernatural forces or outside intervention as it were.

It isn't even that these are things "we can't compute scientifically or comprehend yet." With regards to ki, its more that it would be exceedingly cumbersome to describe these things in a martial arts training environment.

I've been doing mostly sword lately, and the concept of "put your ki in the tip of your sword" is a much easier way to talk about the rate of change in the blade's angle as it moves through the cut, and the exact way in which all the muscles of the upper body should be relaxed or tensed during the cut.

Forget about it......you will probably be better off just practicing each week and putting energy into that and not analysing.

'Since I came to you master, you have never given me any instruction.' 'How can you say that I've never given you any instruction? When you brought me tea, didn't I drink it? When you brought me rice, didn't I eat it? When you saluted me, didn't I return the salutation? How can you say that I haven't instructed you?' And the student said, 'Master, I don't understand.' And he said, 'If you want to understand, see into it directly, but when you begin to think about it, it is altogether missed.'

Forget about it......you will probably be better off just practicing each week and putting energy into that and not analysing.

Im not really sure what its about but I just got frustrated trying to find out.....I just thought #$%# it.........have a good stance, head up, move and keep moving....thats all I am working with currently, that way I dont get too frustrated trying to understand too much at once. Each week I pick one thing to have in mind when practicing, or rather.....remind myself of this one thing.....to practice, simple things like keeping my head up.......or not forgetting to move and not stopping that movement once its started, even if it goes wrong along the way....keep moving and do something else. Sounds simple but I think less is more, relax...thats a tough one, I could spend months on that alone............trying to unlearn conditioned reactions isnt that straightforward. The limbic system response has a strong pull and is a big hurdle.

The breath can keep you out of the head and focused on what you are doing.....or rather.....being aware of the breath by feeling it happen...bit like in meditation, they use the breath as one technique that brings your attention into the present, not past or future...ie not thinking....chatter in the skull...thats like experiencing reality in a similar way to using a torch in a dark room, you can only concentrate or experience that room in one small point at a time.....if it was floodlit it would ve a completely different experience.......the mind is a useful tool but often all it does is adds complexity to experience, with complexity comes confusion and frustration.......not sure what the point is I am trying to make......but thats ok too.

We have had visitors to our dojo that get what it is and others that don't....and it doesn't seem to be those that get it are necessarily part of organizations that that emphasize training in ki development.

Just a thought.

Hansel Wong wrote: Perhaps it would be better to say that Ki is something limited to physical expression. Or at least, restricted to the boundaries of the flesh and bone in this particular instance because O'sensei was still limited to the weaknesses of the human body, despite his skill.

Find some of the Ushiro Kenji videos which demonstrate kizeme similiar to that of Ueshiba, and you may have a different take on that.

Keeping in mind that Ushiro Kenji was brought over to the US to give seminars on the utilization of Ki in aikido, he is relevant to the discussion.

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: Find some of the Ushiro Kenji videos which demonstrate kizeme similiar to that of Ueshiba, and you may have a different take on that. Keeping in mind that Ushiro Kenji was brought over to the US to give seminars on the utilization of Ki in aikido, he is relevant to the discussion.

Looks very similar to Systema techniques and movements.

If you would look at one of my other posts; 'Structure, Leading, Atemi'. I raise the point that Aikido techniques aim to instill in Aikidoka the knowledge and skill in using their structure to drive an opponent off-balance and applying that to practical situations. Kenji Sensei is an example that reflects my opinion. Knowledge of his structure about his opponent involved in a variety of situations. Kenji Sensei is using physics and biomechanics to lead his ukes off-balance, and that comes from knowing how manipulating his structure affects other's as they move in to engage or move in general. Systema has similar principles as well, the leading, the soft movements and versatility Kenji Sensei shows is reflected in Systema practitioners as well.

There is nothing supernatural about all this. It's all about structure, leading and application of the previous two elements. In Systema, this is all a matter of breathing, relaxation and movement. Which is entirely developed, and expressed through physical movement and training. Which leads back to my point; Ki is natural, and expressed and experienced physically. Therefore, the laws of physics are in effect when Aikido techniques or Ki are performed. As a result, Ki could likely be defined and taught according to the laws of energy conversion. Which relate back to my original post regarding structure.

Hansel Wong wrote: Looks very similar to Systema techniques and movements. If you would look at one of my other posts; 'Structure, Leading, Atemi'. I raise the point that Aikido techniques aim to instill in Aikidoka the knowledge and skill in using their structure to drive an opponent off-balance and applying that to practical situations. Kenji Sensei is an example that reflects my opinion. Knowledge of his structure about his opponent involved in a variety of situations. Kenji Sensei is using physics and biomechanics to lead his ukes off-balance, and that comes from knowing how manipulating his structure affects other's as they move in to engage or move in general. Systema has similar principles as well, the leading, the soft movements and versatility Kenji Sensei shows is reflected in Systema practitioners as well. There is nothing supernatural about all this. It's all about structure, leading and application of the previous two elements. In Systema, this is all a matter of breathing, relaxation and movement. Which is entirely developed, and expressed through physical movement and training. Which leads back to my point; Ki is natural, and expressed and experienced physically. Therefore, the laws of physics are in effect when Aikido techniques or Ki are performed. As a result, Ki could likely be defined and taught according to the laws of energy conversion. Which relate back to my original post regarding structure.

I'm referring to what Ushiro Kenji shows and the infamous, Ueshiba the Arch-mage video.

Both are applications of kizeme.

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: I'm referring to what Ushiro Kenji shows and the infamous, Ueshiba the Arch-mage video. Both are applications of kizeme.

Any particular videos? Just so that we are on the same plane of discussion as it were.

Hansel Wong wrote: Any particular videos? Just so that we are on the same plane of discussion as it were.

Sure

The infamous ueshiba the arch mage video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ

Ushiro Kenji demonstrating kizeme, literally Offensive (or projected) ki

https://youtu.be/wsuhU8uouNs?t=48

You have to listen hard to hear Cordelli's explanation in the second video, I can't find the english only version of this video, but he describes something wierd is just pushing him back and he can't react right. Also that he feels some sort of panic or fear.

https://youtu.be/G070tSg9xeY?t=173

It's also a relatively high level concept in kendo as well, you could say its posture, or some sort of visual cue, that causes one to react in such a way. If you want to call the posture or movement physical that's fine, but the result is something that causes a wierd reaction inside of yourself without any actual physical contact. Ushiro Kenji is also a nana-dan in iaido, and you have to be able to utilize this concept in iaido at higher levels.

Again, I only bring up Ushiro Kenji because of the seminar's he gave in the past for Aikidoka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGlCP9R8Q

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: Sure The infamous ueshiba the arch mage video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ Ushiro Kenji demonstrating kizeme, literally Offensive (or projected) ki https://youtu.be/wsuhU8uouNs?t=48 You have to listen hard to hear Cordelli's explanation in the second video, I can't find the english only version of this video, but he describes something wierd is just pushing him back and he can't react right. Also that he feels some sort of panic or fear. https://youtu.be/G070tSg9xeY?t=173 It's also a relatively high level concept in kendo as well, you could say its posture, or some sort of visual cue, that causes one to react in such a way. If you want to call the posture or movement physical that's fine, but the result is something that causes a wierd reaction inside of yourself without any actual physical contact. Ushiro Kenji is also a nana-dan in iaido, and you have to be able to utilize this concept in iaido at higher levels. Again, I only bring up Ushiro Kenji because of the seminar's he gave in the past for Aikidoka. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlvGlCP9R8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CwoYuSgLc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNlz7U56aZo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEGgZ86Ci0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfJoOsldEg

This is Systema. A Russian martial art with similar ideas in Aikido. Except they don't use the term 'ki.' It's simply breathing, relaxation and natural movement. Yet the effects are almost identical to kizeme.

I am not sure I would include ki-touch movement in this thread. Mostly, I say this because if you can't feel ki if someone touches you, I would argue you're not gonna feel ki if its projected at you. Similarly, if you can't affect someone by touching them, you're not going to affect them by projecting ki. Also, it brings an element of scrutiny to the authenticity of the exchange. Second, aiki is more physical affect - I am not sure if I would call it kizeme as I know that concept. Not that there are not mind tricks in fighting, but that is not aiki for me.

Hunter Lonsberry wrote: Sure The infamous ueshiba the arch mage video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCjySZuVDkQ Ushiro Kenji demonstrating kizeme, literally Offensive (or projected) ki https://youtu.be/wsuhU8uouNs?t=48

Could be these similar effects have different causes.

Hansel Wong wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3CwoYuSgLc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNlz7U56aZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEGgZ86Ci0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkfJoOsldEg This is Systema. A Russian martial art with similar ideas in Aikido. Except they don't use the term 'ki.' It's simply breathing, relaxation and natural movement. Yet the effects are almost identical to kizeme.

They have psychological concepts that are similarly implicit, though, which they might as well call ki.

Cliff Judge wrote: They have psychological concepts that are similarly implicit, though, which they might as well call ki.

Or we might as well acknowledge that it is a purely physical combat phenomenon.

Hansel Wong wrote: Or we might as well acknowledge that it is a purely physical combat phenomenon.

Yes, including a conditioned response type thing, particularly if we are talking about no-touch stuff like Ueshiba, Ushiro, and Systema.

You dont percieve wind until it reacts with an object, (ie. rustling leaves, grass moving in a field, the breeze on your skin etc...) this is how i see ki.
You wont necessarily "feel" it specifically, but when you start manipulating your own correctly you will see an increase in the results of a practiced move or technique.

Peter A Goldsbury wrote: Hello again, I have been living in Japan for over 35 years now and I teach aikido to Japanese students in Japanese. I think it is fair to state that I have managed to avoid using this term and I have never heard it used in any special sense in any Japanese dojo where I have trained. However, I have trained with -- and taken ukemi from -- many aikido teachers who were / are direct students of Morihei Ueshiba and I have a good idea what it feels like. The problem is that there is no acceptable English translation and so the word is used in its original Japanese, but without all the linguistic cultural baggage that comes with it. A similar term is budo, which is what aikido is supposed to be, and people will go into great -- and, in my opinion, relatively useless -- detail in trying to explain in English how and why a do is different from a jutsu. When it is time, you will be much better off studying the concept of aiki and for this, of course, you will need to go back to the roots of aikido. Best wishes,

You feel it, or you don't feel it :-)

Alex Fitzgerald wrote: You feel it, or you don't feel it :-)

Ah, yes, and the emperor has some awesome clothes that only the most intelligent and perspicacious people can see...

The phenomenon may be real, but non-falsifiable statements about anything are always suspect.

Alex Fitzgerald wrote: You feel it, or you don't feel it :-)

You're not dead, so you are feeling ki. ;-)

You know you are feeling ki- full when uke just seems to melt away.