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Old 10-18-2004, 06:37 PM   #51
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
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Re: acceptance

A couple of points just to round things out.

The issue of visibly pregnant women training is not addressed in the Shodokan syllabus but is my policy. A risk I am unwilling to take. Fry me for it not the system. When we were originally translating the site there were phrases that felt wrong to my politically correct western ears but I wasn't meant to do a re-write. Shodokan Honbu is about 30% woman and in my opinion far more egalitarian than average in Japan and often far more than Aikido dojos I've encountered in the West.

Randori in the Shodokan context is quite unique in Aikido circles. At the higher levels there is no quarter given and frankly there are few women and elderly men that can withstand a young buck intent on showing what he can do. There are lower levels of randori required for Shodan and Nidan and if you will look at the syllabus - everyone must do those. There are however, enough woman with advanced Dan grades at Honbu that most woman will do Randori for Sandan and up but it is considered gentlemanly to give ladies the option.

Jo I seriously doubt your 74 year old sensei could survive Shiai, most Aikidoka are overwhelmed the first time and that's why we work up to it slowly. As has been mentioned any number of times it is a training method taken to its logical conclusion. Aikido itself encompasses far more than the skill set randori teaches. Randori is a very physical/aerobic endeavor and is heavily weighted to the young and fit. Of course there are a number of 60+ Shodokan members that continue to train in the randori method.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-18-2004, 08:03 PM   #52
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Hanna Björk wrote:
Now I did not say that, did I. But yes, the system you outlined seems to me like better fitted for a pretty homogenous group. If that is a misunderstanding, well then it is.

I originally wrote about different dojo populations, Peter got into talking about the Shodokan system and I agreed he might have a point; there might be a difference also between styles, not only between different dojo populations. I still do think there are - no, I have experienced the huge difference between training in mixed dojo population and in dojos where most everyone is 20-25 and male! This is a separate issue, I am sorry if I was unclear here.
Yes it is a separate issue and an interesting one.

I'm going to start a new thread under training (Group versus Individual) even though it could just as easily be placed under spiritual. If I did the latter there would probably be more confusion than necessary but perhaps some will see through the haze of my logic.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 10-19-2004, 01:32 AM   #53
"anonymous"
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Re: acceptance

For the record - we don't do Randori in my Dojo, not to mention the kind of Randori Peter was talking about. We usually end classes with Gi-waza on the attack we were practicing during class and so fat I usually sat at this part. It was from the lack of certainty what my Nage will perform and the element of surprise to it. I only performed it with Aikidokas who knew my condition and had my full confidence. I will keep this guideline from now hence.

Quote:
Thomas Dixon wrote:
Theres no point in trying to open a closed mind if someones holding it shut.

I hope the best for you and your child, Good Luck!
I'm sorry for sounding closed minded to you, "determined" would have sounded much better… Thanks for your wishes.
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Old 10-19-2004, 03:09 AM   #54
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Re: acceptance

Jo, I guess I completely misunderstood what you wanted to say.
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Old 10-19-2004, 04:30 AM   #55
deepsoup
Dojo: Sheffield Shodokan Dojo
Location: Sheffield, UK
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Re: acceptance

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
Jo I seriously doubt your 74 year old sensei could survive Shiai, most Aikidoka are overwhelmed the first time and that's why we work up to it slowly. As has been mentioned any number of times it is a training method taken to its logical conclusion. Aikido itself encompasses far more than the skill set randori teaches. Randori is a very physical/aerobic endeavor and is heavily weighted to the young and fit. Of course there are a number of 60+ Shodokan members that continue to train in the randori method.
During the run up to the Osaka tournament a few years ago, some sports science students who took the British Shodokan squad on as a project put a heart monitor/data logger on one of our young bucks as he got into some shiai. They wanted to get some objective measure on how strenuous it was. He was (still is) an extremely fit young man, even so they were surprised to find his heart rate peaking up into the 200's.
There are a lot of people who'd be ill advised to push their heart rate right up as far it'll go, especially for really quite a marginal benefit. (Shiai is a valuable learning experience, but its hardly central to the curriculum after all.) I don't think anyone would really want to send a 74 year old into a sport lab to take a VO2 max test, what would be the point? Same applies.

As Peter says, randori is weighted to the young and fit. The 'competition' thing is most attractive, and most useful, for young bucks (of both sexes). In terms of their aikido, I get the distinct impression that they're expected to enjoy it, learn from it, but ultimately grow out of it and move on.

For older folks, the benefit may not be worth the increased risk of injury even if they are extremely fit for their age. Of course the individual may feel differently, skipping the randori is only an option after all, its not compulsory. Some people may need to persuade the grading panel they're up to the randori section - but then the whole point of a grading is to persuade people that your aikido is up to a certain standard anyway.
Theres plenty of opportunity for a vigorous oldie to demonstrate that they're up to it in the run up to the grading anyway, all they have to do is practice with a few young bucks and leave them sweaty and out of breath.

For pregnant women, if that increased risk of injury carries with it a risk of miscarriage, it just isn't worth it. We're talking about the grading syllabus here anyway, the time in grade requirements are several years at this level, gradings are frequent, so a pregnant woman who really wants the randori always has the option to wait a while and do it when she's not pregnant any more.

For what its worth, I'd really like to see that "women and older people" phrased differently. I think it gives the wrong impression, especially the "women" part, it implies that young women are less able than young men.
I know there was a time when women were dissuaded from getting into judo shiai, and female greco-roman wrestlers only got to join the men at the Olympics for the first time this year. I think the word "women" in that bit of our grading syllabus is an artifact from a few decades ago, of an attitude that has largely gone the way of the dinosaur. (An attitude for which, hopefully, total extinction beckons.)

Sean
x

Last edited by deepsoup : 10-19-2004 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 10-19-2004, 06:03 AM   #56
Hanna B
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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Re: acceptance

Peter, I have started another thread in the Training forum to cover another aspect of that topic... the "dojo demographics".
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Old 03-09-2005, 08:56 AM   #57
"anonymous"
IP Hash: fd8cc8eb
Anonymous User
Acceptance - 6 months later...

Six month ago I started a thread called "acceptance" and I want to update you about what happened through the passing months. I chose not to continue with the previous thread because it went off topic toward the end.

Quick summary:
I was at the beginning of my first pregnancy and decided to continue practicing Aikido with the approval of my Sensei.
I was not sure how the people from my Dojo will react to my pregnancy and whether it was fair of me to put them in such condition.

What happened since:
I told the whole Dojo about it when I reached the 4th month (then the pregnancy is considered "stable" and the risk of natural miscarriage lessen).
They were very supportive and helped me to practice regularly but in my own pace for the next few months.
Of course, I've noticed that some of them were trying to avoid me and it made perfect sense (most of my Dojo population are male). Some actually looked like they would rather meet the Terminator in the middle of the night then train with me… but to be honest - that was OK with me because I preferred to train with people that feels relaxed with me and therefore make less mistakes.
My Ukemi needed constant checking - I stopped doing forward rolls around the 5th month and back falls even later.
You know what? I even done my 1st kyu exam when I was at the end of my 7th month. Working as Nage felt natural all the way through, including techniques from Swari-waza, Hamni-handachi and Tachi-Waza. The only techniques I couldn't perform were Koshi-Nage variations. I think it went well and it was something I wouldn't have believed me capable of doing if you'd asked me about it 6 months ago.
I'm now at my 9th month and I stopped training three weeks ago.
My Gi awaits folded in my closet for after the delivery. Till then, I still come to watch classes.

I think my experience is very personal and that doesn't mean it will fit all women in my condition, but I don't regret for a moment the choice I made. I really think it contributed to my current good health (thank God) and having almost no "Pregnancy side effects" like back pains or weariness.
Just wanted to share the second part of my story with you.

Now I'm about to take a new road and let me tell you something - I can't wait!
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