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Old 07-17-2005, 08:03 PM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Just use your kokyu power from center to hands and spiral the power left or right thru uke's center and manipulate their center thusly. My teacher Takeda Yoshinobu and some of my sempai can do, have done this to me. I have felt it. I'm close to doing it occasionally, but not as consistently as I would like.
OK, but let's forget the spiral for a second and just go back to the simple push. You have your hands on uke. How do you get his center and manipulate it... with just a push, even? What is the source of the power that is coming from your middle? What do you do with the opponent's forces, if he's not just standing there? Can you give us some idea of the difference between just pushing the opponent and using a kokyu force on him?

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Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 08:32 PM   #52
eyrie
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
OK, but let's forget the spiral for a second and just go back to the simple push. You have your hands on uke. How do you get his center and manipulate it... with just a push, even? What is the source of the power that is coming from your middle? What do you do with the opponent's forces, if he's not just standing there? Can you give us some idea of the difference between just pushing the opponent and using a kokyu force on him?

Regards,

Mike
Good questions. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can even satisfactorily answer these questions myself, much less explain it yet. I can only feel what I feel.

OK, working on a simple push, let's say, yokomen-uchi kokyu nage irimi where you throw uke backwards. I contact the attacker's R forearm with my LH. And touch my RH heelpalm on the collarbone/chest.

The source of power comes from the ground up my back foot and big toe through the middle into my hand, and I "cut" thru uke into the ground behind uke (where the "hole" is).

My LH is also working in conjunction with my whole body and "feeling" for the connection with uke's center.

If I were to "push" uke simply from a straight arm using the shoulders, the "feeling" is different, and the effect markedly weaker.

Ignatius
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Old 07-17-2005, 08:43 PM   #53
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
OK, working on a simple push, let's say, yokomen-uchi kokyu nage irimi where you throw uke backwards. I contact the attacker's R forearm with my LH. And touch my RH heelpalm on the collarbone/chest.

The source of power comes from the ground up my back foot and big toe through the middle into my hand, and I "cut" thru uke into the ground behind uke (where the "hole" is).

My LH is also working in conjunction with my whole body and "feeling" for the connection with uke's center.

If I were to "push" uke simply from a straight arm using the shoulders, the "feeling" is different, and the effect markedly weaker.
I dunno. I can't fault the wording. But I reserve the right to wait and feel it. I think you're off on the big toe thing... given Ueshiba's comments about six directions, given the jo trick, etc., I suspect the "big toe" comment refers to a manner of storing and releasing power that I would have thought was not given to the Japanese, but which, once again, I was probably wrong about. If wisdom is learned through mistakes, I may be one of the wisest people you know.

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 09:16 PM   #54
eyrie
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

You forget I am Chinese, doing a Japanese martial art. Most of what I "know" (which I use VERY loosely) comes from prior learning, thru what I've felt Takeda do to me, and from outside learning.

So, who knows where I actually picked up the connections, coz it sure as hell wasn't told to me specifically by Takeda (or any of his senior students). It was always a kind of unspoken, the "look" in the eye, inner "knowing", shared moment, thing, as is the Asian way.

I'm pretty sure I'm not all that good (maybe in another 20 years), but at least I "know" what I'm looking for when I train, and when I teach.

Well, you'll just HAVE to come to Oz to visit then....

Ignatius
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Old 07-17-2005, 09:28 PM   #55
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
You forget I am Chinese, doing a Japanese martial art. Most of what I "know" (which I use VERY loosely) comes from prior learning, thru what I've felt Takeda do to me, and from outside learning.

So, who knows where I actually picked up the connections, coz it sure as hell wasn't told to me specifically by Takeda (or any of his senior students). It was always a kind of unspoken, the "look" in the eye, inner "knowing", shared moment, thing, as is the Asian way.
Well, I'm not Asian, but I have known a whole raft of Asian instructors. Generally, my impression is that the more they know about how these things work, the more analytical and studied are their comments and explanations. In fact, the ability to analyze even static structures in the realm of mechanics by some of the experts has intrigued me... even ones without any formal training in physics and statics. So I'll counter your "look in the eye" and suggest that you should still be able to track the thread of logic and mechanical analysis, regardless of genetics.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 09:32 PM   #56
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Does not that "jo-trick" fall outside of basic biomechanics however (if you do believe in that sort of thing)?

According to how I have attempted to define "kokyu-ryoku" and according to what others have said thus far - the "jo trick" seems to fall outside of such understandings.

Truthfully, I do not trust that trick - as it came at a time when Osensei was being made into an icon and/or into a rallying point for a burgeoning "Aikido" identity. For better or for worse, many folks during that period took ukemi that they should not have. This is my opinion no matter how "famous" such Uke (or such students from that time period) may now be.

An interesting thing... Once I had an opportunity to talk firsthand to a student of a well-known teacher that does this trick currently. As things had turned out I had trained with this person for quite some time before I knew he had trained with this teacher and had actually been one of the uke "pushing" against the jo just before they went "flying." Later, I came across a video of this teacher doing this trick and there was my friend taking that ukemi! I was shocked. However, I was also very happy because here I was given the opportunity to ask one of these "uke" if he was really pushing or not. So I went and asked him and guess what? He dodged the question like you could not imagine. (Please do not give me that "Well maybe he felt you wouldn't understand" response. He and I had talked about many topics up to that point -- including highly abstract ones, etc. He was just plain embarrassed and the silence was totally related to a desire for not being asked any more.)

Another kind of related point -- for me at least -- is that I would like to leave space for the fact that basic waza are themselves outlets for developing kokyu-ryoku (as many have said). The flip-side of this is to note that while someone might be able to do the "unbendable arm" under its normally accompanying conditions such a person is not then primed to demonstrate kokyu-ryoku under more intense or spontaneous conditions. The same thing can of course be said for training in kihon waza, but it would seem that such "cool ki tricks" have even further to travel before they could really demonstrate a kokyu-ryoku that is of actual value (e.g. operable under spontaneous martial conditions) and/or REAL.

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-17-2005, 10:02 PM   #57
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Does not that "jo-trick" fall outside of basic biomechanics however (if you do believe in that sort of thing)?
Not really. It's the same basic idea of bringing "that from which the center is drawing its power" (in this case, the ground) to some part of the body or a weapon being held by the body. It's an extreme trick. When someone originally asked me about how to do the "jo trick", I was thinking of some pictures I had seen in books where a student was pushing from the front. After I realized that they were referring to something different (I have been out of the Aikido mainstream for a long time) I joined AikiWeb and Aikido Journal forums to see if someone could privide pictures. Watching the videos of O-Sensei, I knew immediately what he was showing, but because I couldn't believe he had access to the sort of training it usually comes from, I began formulating ways that he might have been able to approach the trick differently. Now, after having had a lot of information input from books, videos, members of this list, etc., I just accept that he had access to a certain method of training, which is a surprise to me.

But basically, the answer is that the jo-trick is just another variation of kokyu tricks, of which the "ki tests" are also a member. So is any kokyu throw or any other movement in Aikido. The argument would be how sophisticated the level of kokyu skills must be to be considered "acceptable".
Quote:
An interesting thing... Once I had an opportunity to talk firsthand to a student of a well-known teacher that does this trick currently.
Watching O-Sensei do the trick, it was legitimate, even though the uke(s) were over-acting. However, having seen too many cases where bona fide demo's were faked by some teachers and students, I can't just accept out of hand that this "well known teacher" was legitimately also doing the same trick. Frankly, I'd be interested in who the teacher was... if it was a westerner, my warning flags would go way up because to do the trick legitimately would take knowledge of something I don't think is very commonly known, even in Japanese Aikido circles. I'd like to see/feel him do the trick.
Quote:
Another kind of related point -- for me at least -- is that I would like to leave space for the fact that basic waza are themselves outlets for developing kokyu-ryoku (as many have said). The flip-side of this is to note that while someone might be able to do the "unbendable arm" under its normally accompanying conditions such a person is not then primed to demonstrate kokyu-ryoku under more intense or spontaneous conditions. The same thing can of course be said for training in kihon waza, but it would seem that such "cool ki tricks" have even further to travel before they could really demonstrate a kokyu-ryoku that is of actual value (e.g. operable under spontaneous martial conditions) and/or REAL.
I agree with you. I was just saying that someone with "really good" kokyu skills should be able to do ki tricks without too much difficulty because he/she would understand how fairly pure kokyu skills work. Knowing how kokyu works and having some reasonable skills will not allow you to do the jo-trick because that involves a kind of training that enhances the "strength" of the connection from the center of the body to the extremities. So it's a matter of conditioning level, but not a matter of any difference in the basic principles.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-17-2005, 10:49 PM   #58
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Re: Defining Kokyu

This is my take:

Kokyu-ryoku is just pushing. Kokyu-nage is pushing combined with a little skill - taking uke's balance. If you take uke's balance too much, it is too easy - uke almost falls over. If you take none at all he won't budge. So, to develop the 'ryoku' (or power) you need to take his balance just enough so you are still required to give him a good push. Of course, taking more balance and doing it easily might seem to be the logical approach, but if you want to develop 'power' then you need something to push. (By develop, I mean train the power). The problem is, however, a push is not always just a push, just as a shovelling (see above) steel plate 'feels' different to different people. For example, although it is a push, you can't practise this on a wall. The 'other end' needs to be alive. But you can practise it by yourself, to a certain degree.

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Old 07-17-2005, 11:09 PM   #59
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Rupert,
I agree with you that you cannot practice kokyu ryoku on a wall. I was using that to try to get the picture of how to set up proper body mechanics to deliver energy and partly because someone else had mentioned it earlier. I'm not sure I understand the technical part of what you were saying about pushing a little to take balance and then pushing alot???

Ignatius,
Could you explain in more detail exactly where the power in your push comes from again in terms of body mechanics describing uke's stance also. Just curious.

Anybody,
Please explain the jo trick. Nothing fancy, just what happens as I really have no idea.
Thanks,
Jason
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:37 PM   #60
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Well if one wants to use the expression of "the same basic idea," I would say that it is an over-exaggeration of that same basic idea. For it may be true that one may be dealing with a centered power or a power that is emanating from a center, but at the same time it is an example of violating the physical laws that pertain to leverage. In this latter sense, the jo trick is in actuality something entirely different. It would be the same with any version of Kokyu Nage that attempted a similar thing (e.g. where Nage attempts energy in one direction and Uke ends up traveling in harmony with an energy that would actually be going the other way). In fact, this is the nature of the jo trick itself (i.e. what makes it a trick), that it appears to defy normal physics. What we are seeing, or what someone is trying to show us (better said), is that with "kokyu-ryoku" one can defy the natural world. For me, that goes against my suggested notion of kokyu-ryoku being in accord with the principles and laws of Nature.

Mike, I am getting the feeling that you feel there are these drills or techniques out there that stand over and above normal training (e.g. kihon waza training). Or, better said, that waza training alone is not enough or even couldn't possibly be enough (e.g. "couldn't believe he had access to the sort of training…"). If that is the case, I would have to disagree. In my opinion, while waza training may not be enough for some, it is enough for others. Or, better said, if one trains correctly and fully (i.e. meeting every tenet) in waza, one will cultivate kokyu-ryoku. Inversely, if one does not practice their ki tests or ki tricks correctly and fully, these things will not cultivate kokyu-ryoku. For me, this means that it is about how you are doing what you are doing and not just about what you are doing. That said, again, in my opinion, no matter what one might be doing; I am going to push that jo from the side of anyone that might be holding it -- including Osensei. Those uke were faking it for Osensei just like my acquaintance was faking it for his teacher -- my opinion. In contrast, the unbendable arm is something completely different in my mind -- even in principle. It is, as was explained above, in perfect accord with the natural world (i.e. the antagonistic relationship between muscle groups, etc.).

However, I am more than willing to change my mind if I could see something first hand or better yet experience something first hand (something that would also account for why the jo itself does not break should it be unable to leverage itself forward (and all kinds of other things like that).

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:41 PM   #61
eyrie
 
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Jason Mokry wrote:
Ignatius,
Could you explain in more detail exactly where the power in your push comes from again in terms of body mechanics describing uke's stance also. Just curious.
Sorry, don't know the jo trick and haven't seen it to be able to comment.

The "power" comes from the ground thru the "whole" body. Fune-kogi undo, sayu undo and ikkyo undo is a good way to feel where the power is coming from. But like Rupert says, you can't do this on an inanimate object. (Note, some uke's are LIKE inanimate objects....).

Imagine every major joint in your body from your feet to your hands as a series of spring loaded fulcrums, and the long bones as the levers. Using the ground reaction force, transmit and amplify the force through this series of "springs" as you transmit it from your feet, knees, hips, back, shoulders, elbows, wrists and hands.

Then try short-cutting the path just feet to hands, or hip to hands.

At least, this is how I understand it. YMMV...

Last edited by eyrie : 07-17-2005 at 11:43 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:41 PM   #62
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Re: Defining Kokyu

The Jo Trick:

Osensei holds one distal end of a jo and about four or five young men get on the side of the jo (at a perpendicular angle to Osensei) from the near end (next to Osensei) to the far end (the other distal end that Osensei is not holding) and attempt to push the jo from the side forward and away from them with both of their hands, bodies, and legs, etc. The jo will not budge until Osensei "releases" it - and the men go flying.

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-17-2005, 11:59 PM   #63
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I saw the trick being performed by Osensei in a video I have somewhere - sorry can't remember which off the top of my head. Here is the best pic I can find of it on the Net on the quick. I tried to blow it up a bit but it lost some resolution. However, combined with my description, one should be able to figure out what is being discussed here.
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:32 AM   #64
Drew Scott
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Re: Defining Kokyu

I wish we could see the event in this picture from various angles. To me, it doesn't look like they are perpendicular to the Jo at all. The angle of the Jo and the differences in body positions between the Uke's makes me think the actual line of force is at a slight angle to the Jo's long axis. Numbering the Uke's 1, 2 and 3 moving outward from O'Sensei, I note that 1's hands are not equidistant from his center, but the hand closest to O'Sensei is in fact further forward, implying to me that the force is not truly "perpendicular" to the Jo. As you move to 2 and 3, the angles become even more exaggerated along the vertical plane as well as the horizontal. This looks a lot more complex to me than the traditional description I've heard which involves four Uke standing perfectly perpendicular to a completely level Jo pushing with all their force. Thanks for posting this image, it's fascinating.

This reminds me of something one of my sensei's showed me once. We were doing work on maintaining a strong center in seiza, and I was sitting on the floor with a partner pushing on my shoulders from the front. Although I could maintain my posture, it was a definite effort. Sensei came over and said "align your forearms under his and lift gently as you do this" and as I found the alignment he was talking about, suddenly the pressure redistributed and the whole exercise became easier. When my turn came to provide the pressure to my partner, sensei showed him the same thing and I was amazed at how well it distributed the force I was trying to apply. It wasn't mystical "Ki" stuff, it was utilizing leverage and body mechanics, though from the outside, it might well have looked like some kind of mystical power, as the change in position was fairly subtle. Looking at this image, I have to wonder if there is something similar going on. O'Sensei's lifetime of martial study had to have given him an immense understanding of the forces the human body can exert and the limitations of our physical structure.

Interesting stuff.

Regards,
Drew
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:35 AM   #65
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Kokyu-ryoku is just pushing.
It can be pushing, pulling, lifting, or downward. Or any reasonable combination of those force directions. If you move your hand in a circle, it should contain all four of those forces .... a good example of using the example of a circle would be the full arm circle made in sayo undo or when a calligrapher draws a circle on a piece of paper.
Quote:
For example, although it is a push, you can't practise this on a wall. The 'other end' needs to be alive. But you can practise it by yourself, to a certain degree.
Huh? I can break a door with kokyu ryoku and the door is certainly not alive.

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 07:52 AM   #66
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
(re the "jo trick")For it may be true that one may be dealing with a centered power or a power that is emanating from a center, but at the same time it is an example of violating the physical laws that pertain to leverage.
How are the laws of physics being violated?
Quote:
What we are seeing, or what someone is trying to show us (better said), is that with "kokyu-ryoku" one can defy the natural world. For me, that goes against my suggested notion of kokyu-ryoku being in accord with the principles and laws of Nature.
No, all Ueshiba was showing was the extent of the powers he had built up using his special training methods (which he obviously didn't pass down to most of his Aikido students, right?). Granted his students over-dramatised the demonstration a bit, but the ability to withstand forces from the side is a well-known kokyu/jin demonstration. I can think of about 10 people, off the top of my head, who can withstand sideways pushes on their arms or weapons pretty well. It's just a demonstration of the power that they have built up, coordinated with their skill in jin/kokyu. Nothing more.
Quote:
Mike, I am getting the feeling that you feel there are these drills or techniques out there that stand over and above normal training (e.g. kihon waza training).
True. Kihon waza is usually done without any idea of what kokyu skills are, so kokyu training should be added to the kihon waze, the Aiki-Taiso, Tai-sabaki, etc.
Quote:
Or, better said, that waza training alone is not enough or even couldn't possibly be enough (e.g. "couldn't believe he had access to the sort of training…"). If that is the case, I would have to disagree. In my opinion, while waza training may not be enough for some, it is enough for others.
Well, I guess we disagree.
Quote:
Or, better said, if one trains correctly and fully (i.e. meeting every tenet) in waza, one will cultivate kokyu-ryoku.
And if you poll western Aikidoists and ask how many of them train kihon waza correctly, the overwhelming answer would be what? And if you then tested western Aikidoists to see how many actually have bona fide kokyu skills, you'd find what?
Quote:
Those uke were faking it for Osensei just like my acquaintance was faking it for his teacher -- my opinion. In contrast, the unbendable arm is something completely different in my mind -- even in principle. It is, as was explained above, in perfect accord with the natural world (i.e. the antagonistic relationship between muscle groups, etc.).
OK. I understand your stated position and how you see things.
Quote:
However, I am more than willing to change my mind if I could see something first hand or better yet experience something first hand (something that would also account for why the jo itself does not break should it be unable to leverage itself forward (and all kinds of other things like that).
Frankly, if I was studying Aikido, there are enough clues out there about the importance of ki and kokyu that I would be asking every "teacher" (particularly the original uchideshi, etc.) I could find, in order to get information or at least the indication that it was a hidden topic. I.e., I would be actively chasing information. Wait.... that's what I did.

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:04 AM   #67
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Drew Scott wrote:
I wish we could see the event in this picture from various angles.
Try this video clip: http://www.neijia.com/jotrick2.avi Bear in mind that Ueshiba is old and the uke is over-acting. However, at a couple of moments you can see that Ueshiba is indeed setting up a resistance despite the amount of moment-arm working against him. And he is relaxed while doing it. I suspect he was better at it when he was younger and stronger.... but it's still an overdone example, IMO, of the power you can develop with certain training methods.
Quote:
This reminds me of something one of my sensei's showed me once. We were doing work on maintaining a strong center in seiza, and I was sitting on the floor with a partner pushing on my shoulders from the front. Although I could maintain my posture, it was a definite effort. Sensei came over and said "align your forearms under his and lift gently as you do this" and as I found the alignment he was talking about, suddenly the pressure redistributed and the whole exercise became easier. When my turn came to provide the pressure to my partner, sensei showed him the same thing and I was amazed at how well it distributed the force I was trying to apply. It wasn't mystical "Ki" stuff, it was utilizing leverage and body mechanics, though from the outside, it might well have looked like some kind of mystical power, as the change in position was fairly subtle. Looking at this image, I have to wonder if there is something similar going on. O'Sensei's lifetime of martial study had to have given him an immense understanding of the forces the human body can exert and the limitations of our physical structure.
Good point. In some ways, kokyu tricks do indeed involve shifting force directions and responsibilities, but not quite in the way you're talking about. But you should indeed always be sceptical and analytical. Here's a discussion of such tricks that is worth reading:
http://www.worldwideschool.org/libra...ned/Chap1.html

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:31 AM   #68
Drew Scott
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
ARGH! It won't play on my system. I've saved the file so I'll work it out. Thanks very much!

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Good point. In some ways, kokyu tricks do indeed involve shifting force directions and responsibilities, but not quite in the way you're talking about. But you should indeed always be sceptical and analytical. Here's a discussion of such tricks that is worth reading:
http://www.worldwideschool.org/libra...ned/Chap1.html

Regards,
Mike
That is a GREAT link and is going in my permanent file. Should be required reading for all Aikidoka, regardless of their position on Ki, etc. Thanks for being patient with a noob. I'm willing to accept the possibility that virtually anything is true, but I'm fundamentally an empiricist and skeptic, so my first instinct is to look for clear explanations and reproducible results.

I'm interested in your thoughts on the "shifting force directions and responsibilities" of "kokyu tricks" beyond, or in contrast to, the kind of exercise I described above.

Thanks much,
Drew
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Old 07-18-2005, 08:47 AM   #69
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Drew Scott wrote:
I'm interested in your thoughts on the "shifting force directions and responsibilities" of "kokyu tricks" beyond, or in contrast to, the kind of exercise I described above.
Just as a rough idea of "shifting force directions and responsibilities, try this:

Take something about the weight of a half-gallon jug of milk in both your hands and hold it comfortably out in front of your chest about 12-16 inches from the chest about throat high. Notice that normally the body is sort of a "tower" and the shoulders hold the arms and then the weight/object. Now without moving too much, kind of "get under" the weight of the object so that the weight of the object is sitting directly on the legs and feet. Relax your body and feel the difference when you let the legs hold the object. You just shifted the load-bearing responsibilities by adjusting the force vectors within your body. Your "mind" arranged it.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:15 AM   #70
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Re: Defining Kokyu

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Drew Scott wrote:
I wish we could see the event in this picture from various angles. To me, it doesn't look like they are perpendicular to the Jo at all.
This pic is from the video clip that I have seen - which is different from the one Mike has provided. Still - they are the same kind of demonstration. This pic is from the part right as or right before Osensei attempts to throw them - so the angle is a little different than I described it (because they are in the process of falling. However, in the total video from which the pic is taking, and in the one that Mike has provided, you can see that Uke is/are perpendicular to Osensei. There is no shift in angles or "lost" position that the picture or the video/pic is hiding. It is what is, and (sorry to say) it is as I described it.

Your other example Drew, I would say, is different from what Osensei was doing - in that the positing of your hands/arms allows for you to capitalize upon uke's energy such that it now pushes you downward instead of just backward. In my opinion its a variation on "A" frame architecture. We build structures according to that technology all over the place. It is quite a well-known part of the natural world. What Osensei is attempting to convince us of is that the short end of a lever can maintain a mechanical advantage over the long end of the lever and/or that via some kind of "energy' an inanimate object can be structurally rienforced (i.e. a jo should break if the short end of the lever were actually strong enough to maintain a mechanical advantage over the long end of the lever - just stick a jo in a vice and and push on the distal end and see what happens!). It is these things Mike that I say go against the law of physics, the Natural world, etc. I can grasp that kokyu-ryoku can allow one to withstand more horizontal resistance than usual (i.e. than without kokyu-ryoku), but once you start reversing distal-end lever concepts and/or the structural integrity of a one inch diameter piece of wood that is 51 inches in length - that's another thing entirely.

I'm afraid we will also have to disagree on your take of "Western" practitioners. It seems my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. When I trained in Japan it had only cemented for me the position that true Budo (of which kokyu-ryoku is a part) was more in the West (and practiced by more westerners) now than in the East.

As I said, this jo trick stuff was being practiced at a time when Osensei was being put up as a political/social/cultural icon. Uke were faking things for him all over the place at this time. This was not the time of Osensei when he was 68 and demonstrating at Asahi Shinbun (I believe he was that old at that time - maybe he was 48). Once you start faking things, you don't really have a place where you can stop and say, "Oh wait a minute - this is TOO fake." Rather, you just start going with it, working more to find ways of including it along the lines of what you have already done. In this way falsehood perpetuates itself. It is like this with a commitment to Truth as well. Once you start a path of Truth and accuracy, it keeps going and you keep making decisions based upon what is more truthful and more accurate. Our modern sensibilities and our good faith in the history of art almost force us to look for things that are not present in these examples. We seek out explanations (i.e. there must be a slight angle difference than what the camera's eye is showing, etc.) and/or even suggest that such things are beyond our comprehension (i.e. we no longer have access to this kind of development, etc.). In addition, we often try to understand things symbolically and/or metaphorically - as a way of leaving things with enough validity that we can actually accept them though we would reject other like things in nearly any other place. An example of the latter would be Osensei's meditation/purification rituals that were aimed at spirit possession. We would like to think of these practices as insights into our subconscious or as commentaries relative to the universal nature of Man and/or the Cosmos - but I'm sorry, they were all about trying to get possessed by a spirit. Spirit possession was a big part of Omoto-kyo discourse. In fact, there would be no Omoto-kyo if it were not for spirit possession.

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-18-2005, 09:41 AM   #71
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
This pic is from the video clip that I have seen - which is different from the one Mike has provided. Still - they are the same kind of demonstration.
I'm not totally sure that's true because it is easier to set up a vertical kokyu demonstration (stopping them from pushing down) than it is to set up a horizontal demonstration. But it's not important enough to go off on another tangent.
Quote:
What Osensei is attempting to convince us of is that the short end of a lever can maintain a mechanical advantage over the long end of the lever and/or that via some kind of "energy' an inanimate object can be structurally rienforced (i.e. a jo should break if the short end of the lever were actually strong enough to maintain a mechanical advantage over the long end of the lever - just stick a jo in a vice and and push on the distal end and see what happens!).
In that case, a weight-lifter is trying to convince us that the laws of gravity don't work, David, according to your logic. I.e., O-Sensei is doing no such thing... he's simply showing the level of his strength, with the assist of a few well-meaning uke's. Insofar as shear-loads on the jo, do the math... that part of your debate won't sustain even mild scrutiny.
Quote:
It is these things Mike that I say go against the law of physics, the Natural world, etc.
Yeah, but we could also say that a weight-lifter lifting a barbell is going against the laws of physics, the Natural world, too. It just ain't nacheral for weights to go up in the air. Heck, while we're liftin' them weights up we might even see an airplane in the sky and lord knows that if we'd been meant to see airplanes we'd a had eyes placed in the top of our head! Land Sakes! (sorry David... I'm cursed with a bizarre sense of humour)
Quote:
I'm afraid we will also have to disagree on your take of "Western" practitioners. It seems my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. When I trained in Japan it had only cemented for me the position that true Budo (of which kokyu-ryoku is a part) was more in the West (and practiced by more westerners) now than in the East.
Well someone should pass this on to Abe, Sunadomari, and others that they're missing out on the good stuff in the West.
Quote:
As I said, this jo trick stuff was being practiced at a time when Osensei was being put up as a political/social/cultural icon. Uke were faking things for him all over the place at this time. This was not the time of Osensei when he was 68 and demonstrating at Asahi Shinbun (I believe he was that old at that time - maybe he was 48). Once you start faking things, you don't really have a place where you can stop and say, "Oh wait a minute - this is TOO fake." Rather, you just start going with it, working more to find ways of including it along the lines of what you have already done. In this way falsehood perpetuates itself. It is like this with a commitment to Truth as well. Once you start a path of Truth and accuracy, it keeps going and you keep making decisions based upon what is more truthful and more accurate.
In other words, in real Aikido, uke's don't take dives for nage's? I think you just made a profound comment about Aikido as a whole, David! The fact that O-Sensei's uke's were cooperative with O-Sensei in those demonstrations was different from a lot of Aikido in what way?

Regards,

Mike
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:06 AM   #72
Drew Scott
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Just as a rough idea of "shifting force directions and responsibilities, try this:
[example snipped]
You just shifted the load-bearing responsibilities by adjusting the force vectors within your body. Your "mind" arranged it.

FWIW
Mike
This makes a lot of sense to me and seems to fit in line with what I described earlier. You are realigning your body so as to maximize the efficiency of your musculature, skeletal structure, etc. If I'm understanding the example correctly, it seems to me to be a physical phenomenon based in understanding your body and the forces being exerted on it and then applying your increased understanding and improved mind-body connection to make it possible.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
However, in the total video from which the pic is taking, and in the one that Mike has provided, you can see that Uke is/are perpendicular to Osensei. There is no shift in angles or "lost" position that the picture or the video/pic is hiding. It is what is, and (sorry to say) it is as I described it.
Using VLC I was finally able to watch the video. To my eye, it appears that Uke is dropping down into a "lunge" position and exerting virtually no lateral force on the Jo. I'd have to compare this to the same demo being done in O'Sensei's younger days, as his age and reputation may have changed the nature of it, but it looks pretty unconvincing in that PARTICULAR clip.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Your other example Drew, I would say, is different from what Osensei was doing - in that the positing of your hands/arms allows for you to capitalize upon uke's energy such that it now pushes you downward instead of just backward. In my opinion its a variation on "A" frame architecture. We build structures according to that technology all over the place. It is quite a well-known part of the natural world.
I guess what I was getting at is that so far in my limited experience, my sense of much of the "power" of Aikido is that it could be expressed as a deep understanding of the structures and forces at work in both participants, combined with a relaxed unification of strength and structure within Nage to produce the maximum effect on Uke with the minimum localization of effort in Nage. If that makes any sense... I don't have all the vocabulary I need for some of this, and my experience is limited.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
I can grasp that kokyu-ryoku can allow one to withstand more horizontal resistance than usual (i.e. than without kokyu-ryoku), but once you start reversing distal-end lever concepts and/or the structural integrity of a one inch diameter piece of wood that is 51 inches in length - that's another thing entirely.
I'd sure like to submit these demonstrations to some scientific process. Without more data, however, these videos raise a red flag for me. However, I'm not sure that the theoretical forces involved would actually be beyond the capacity of a jo or bokken to withstand. I've put a heck of a lot of force on them attempting to straighten unwanted warpage... they're tough.

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
As I said, this jo trick stuff was being practiced at a time when Osensei was being put up as a political/social/cultural icon.
[snip]
Once you start faking things, you don't really have a place where you can stop and say, "Oh wait a minute - this is TOO fake."
[snip]
In this way falsehood perpetuates itself.
[snip]
Our modern sensibilities and our good faith in the history of art almost force us to look for things that are not present in these examples. We seek out explanations (i.e. there must be a slight angle difference than what the camera's eye is showing, etc.) and/or even suggest that such things are beyond our comprehension (i.e. we no longer have access to this kind of development, etc.).
Please forgive the self-serving "snips". I think you make valid points here, and I'd like to emphasize the phrase "our good faith in the history of the art". Just as falsehood tends to self-perpetuate, so too does "faith", and for similar reasons. The more you place your "faith" in something or someone, the harder it becomes to accept information which runs counter to that faith. Aikidoka are not alone in their tendency towards this. I think it's part of human nature to seek information which confirms our own beliefs and to avoid information which conflicts with them.

In case your statement about "angle difference" is in reference to my posts, I'd like to clarify that I have no stake in the validity of the Jo exercise demonstrated. :-) I am intensely curious about it, however, and I'm therefore (as far as I can tell, being inside my own motivations) looking for as much information as possible about what is physically occuring in the images presented. I'm aware that is exceedingly difficult without context (such as the information that the image I was seeing was at the point of transition into a throw).

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
Spirit possession was a big part of Omoto-kyo discourse. In fact, there would be no Omoto-kyo if it were not for spirit possession.
Is it possible for an individual to be expressing something they understand to be literal truth which is, in fact, merely an image/metaphor they have unconsciously adopted in order to make sense of their experiences? For example, I find that some techniques do seem to require less physical effort when I imagine, for example, that "energy is flowing out the ends of my fingertips". Although I suspect this is simply a physiological change being created as my mind attempts to externalize the metaphor, I can imagine that after years of using the metaphor and experiencing results, I might easily come to believe that there actually is invisible energy flowing from my fingers (whether there is or not, I can't confirm from experience).

This is a long-winded way of saying that it may be possible for us to experience what the original practitioners believed was possession by a spirit, but dispense with their unconsciously adopted metaphor due to our new context. Similarly, we may be able to experience the supernormal feats of our predecessors, but find physical principles at work where once we required a mystical context for understanding.

Or maybe I'm just finding more ways to justify the delusions. Great conversations though. Apologies if anything I'm inserting into this dialogue is unwelcome.

Regards,
Drew
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Old 07-18-2005, 11:24 AM   #73
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
Drew Scott wrote:
This makes a lot of sense to me and seems to fit in line with what I described earlier. You are realigning your body so as to maximize the efficiency of your musculature, skeletal structure, etc. If I'm understanding the example correctly, it seems to me to be a physical phenomenon based in understanding your body and the forces being exerted on it and then applying your increased understanding and improved mind-body connection to make it possible.
True. Let me shift to the oft-seen picture of Tohei standing on one leg while a cooperative partner pushes against his forearm. That demonstration is really just a variation of the example I just gave with the weight held in front of the chest. True the force is horizontal against Tohei, rather than vertical, but the idea of shifting the load-bearing responsibility to the foot/leg is exactly the same. A beginner can be shown how to do these things in fairly short order, but one of the factors affecting a beginner's performance is the stress on the shoulder joint. He will tense his shoulder joint pretty quickly, thereby diluting the demonstration and also adversely affecting his training. So it is important that a beginner not have much force put on him while he is training to do these kokyu movements, etc. Secondly, it has to be recognized that conditioning the connection from one's center to the force is an important criterion. As relaxed as Tohei is in the demo I'm talking about, his shoulder and back are conditioned by training in order to allow him to transmit the direction of that force vector from his forearm directly toward his middle.

O-Sensei's jo-trick is simply another example of the same idea, but it involves the stresses coming in a different angles in relation to the body and with a little thought you can realize that the important aspect of the jo-trick is that somehow O-Sensei's connection to his center (and thence to the ground) is unusually strong... so strong that he can appear to be somewhat relaxed when he does it. That's the part of the magic trick people should be thinking about. How did he train that sort of connection?

FWIW

Mike


**First let me dispose of the idea of Tohei leaning into the push... that's not the idea; if the pushing partner suddenly releases from his push, Tohei should not fall forward.
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Old 07-18-2005, 12:04 PM   #74
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Re: Defining Kokyu

In my opinion, a weight lifter lifting weights and airplanes flying are both things of the natural world. The jo trick is more akin to holding that the Earth is flat when it is not: It is based in the natural world but it is so unfounded that it proves to be false. In lifting weights, the force of gravity is overcome when the engine being used can generate more energy than the weight involved. An over-exaggeration of this principle, and something very akin to the jo trick, would be to suggest that a two year old could lift a car. Such a position violates the known ratios concerning mass and energy. In that, such a position violates nature and proves to be false.

It is true that at some level Osensei is attempting to demonstrate his capacity to generate remarkable levels of mechanical advantage. In doing so, as you say Mike, he is attempting to use the same principles relevant to all mechanical advantages. However, he is also going beyond that (i.e. over-exaggerating -- now entering falsehood). He is not just saying that with kokyu-ryoku one can offer more resistance to horizontal energy than without kokyu-ryoku (which would be true). He is saying that with "kokyu-ryoku" one can overcome the horizontal energy put out by three extremely fit and strong young men. In saying this, he is also saying that not only can he overcome the horizontal energy output of three fit and strong young men BUT that he can also give them the long end of a lever and still offer more resistance. If he was not already in the land of "fake" before, he certainly is now when he offers them the longer lever.

Moreover, (and this seems to be the point I am not explaining too well) in saying that he can give three young men the longer lever and still overcome their horizontal energy output, he is asking us to believe that said three young men cannot break a jo when the shorter lever proves to be stronger than the longer lever. What is an over-exaggeration here -- what is a departure from the Truth here? Two things: That three strong fit young men cannot generate more horizontal energy using a longer lever and all of their body than a frail old man can using a shorter lever and his one hand; and that three strong fit young men cannot break a jo by pushing on the longer end when the shorter end of the lever proves to be (for some reason) the more powerful end. Though this latter point is proving difficult to explain, one can simply experience it by sticking their jo in a vice and getting two friends (no training is necessary -- believe me) to help you push on it latterly. SNAP!

Like I said, my experiences in Japan seem to be different from yours Mike -- assuming you trained with Abe, Sunadomari, and others. Still, I am not the only one that holds such a position concerning the state of Budo in the West and in the East -- including Japanese shihan who have practiced and taught in both places. To be sure, what those Uke are doing in those old tapes of Osensei when he was older IS very much like what one sees in many places today. That don't make it right. If anything, for me, that makes my case more valid: They, and he, shouldn't have been doing that. (I often wonder how different the world would have been if Osensei wasn't turned into an icon and political and culturally prompted to put on such demonstrations.) This is only my take on things -- and my opinion is not worth crap in the world of Aikido. I can only run my dojo according to such a perspective. Thus, in our dojo if the geometry and the physics is not present, and we are not addressing the learning curves of a beginner, if Uke "takes a fall," that uke did something wrong. He or she was not being cooperative, not blending, not protecting themselves, not in harmony with Nage, he or she was not following Nage's lead, he or she was not being affected by Ki, etc., - they were just plain ol' faking it. They are told then not to do that, and then they are guided in how to reconcile the supporting fear, pride, or ignorance that is supporting such falsehood.

Anyways, Mike, I loved the humor -- keep it up. Thanks for the laugh.

Drew, you as well, in my opinion, make some fine points. What you say at the end there is what I think we tend to want to do: find some way of making sense of such things. Only, it is pretty hard to do that in this case when it is clear that what one is seeing is clearly a belief system -- not just a discourse. Normally, I'd be right there with you, that something else is going on, etc., but here we are in fact talking about good ol' spirit possession.

Thanks guys for the reply, much appreciation -- great posts.

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 07-18-2005, 12:17 PM   #75
Mike Sigman
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Re: Defining Kokyu

Quote:
David Valadez wrote:
In my opinion, a weight lifter lifting weights and airplanes flying are both things of the natural world. The jo trick is more akin to holding that the Earth is flat when it is not: It is based in the natural world but it is so unfounded that it proves to be false. In lifting weights, the force of gravity is overcome when the engine being used can generate more energy than the weight involved. An over-exaggeration of this principle, and something very akin to the jo trick, would be to suggest that a two year old could lift a car. Such a position violates the known ratios concerning mass and energy. In that, such a position violates nature and proves to be false.

It is true that at some level Osensei is attempting to demonstrate his capacity to generate remarkable levels of mechanical advantage. In doing so, as you say Mike, he is attempting to use the same principles relevant to all mechanical advantages. However, he is also going beyond that (i.e. over-exaggerating -- now entering falsehood). He is not just saying that with kokyu-ryoku one can offer more resistance to horizontal energy than without kokyu-ryoku (which would be true). He is saying that with "kokyu-ryoku" one can overcome the horizontal energy put out by three extremely fit and strong young men. In saying this, he is also saying that not only can he overcome the horizontal energy output of three fit and strong young men BUT that he can also give them the long end of a lever and still offer more resistance. If he was not already in the land of "fake" before, he certainly is now when he offers them the longer lever.

Moreover, (and this seems to be the point I am not explaining too well) in saying that he can give three young men the longer lever and still overcome their horizontal energy output, he is asking us to believe that said three young men cannot break a jo when the shorter lever proves to be stronger than the longer lever. What is an over-exaggeration here -- what is a departure from the Truth here? Two things: That three strong fit young men cannot generate more horizontal energy using a longer lever and all of their body than a frail old man can using a shorter lever and his one hand; and that three strong fit young men cannot break a jo by pushing on the longer end when the shorter end of the lever proves to be (for some reason) the more powerful end. Though this latter point is proving difficult to explain, one can simply experience it by sticking their jo in a vice and getting two friends (no training is necessary -- believe me) to help you push on it latterly. SNAP!
David it's like watching the strongman at a circus. He is certainly strong, but he since he adds a little bogosity to his act by inflating the numbers on the weights, you're discounting the act. I see that he's strong. You see that he's faking a part of the act. Yes, O-Sensei had overly-cooperative uke's.... but most Aikido dojo's would be hypercritical to complain about that, I think. What I see, through a number of demonstrations, is that O-Sensei could indeed demonstrate that he had the traditional power and skills from trained ki and kokyu practices.
Quote:
Thus, in our dojo if the geometry and the physics is not present, and we are not addressing the learning curves of a beginner, if Uke "takes a fall," that uke did something wrong. He or she was not being cooperative, not blending, not protecting themselves, not in harmony with Nage, he or she was not following Nage's lead, he or she was not being affected by Ki, etc., - they were just plain ol' faking it.
What if they do everything right but they run into someone who understands body mechanics they're not familiar with? That's the essence of kokyu things and why they're not openly taught, BTW.

Mike
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