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Old 02-25-2017, 04:33 PM   #26
GovernorSilver
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 55
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
The fact is that they are reluctant to sacrifice their time for something that is considered "magic or circus tricks".
Ikeda tried repeatedly to impress upon seminar attendees that the reason his ultra-efficient approach (you touch him, you're off balance. Just. Like. That.) is worth pursuing is, well, you neutralize the attack much faster. Who wouldn't want to finish off an attacker in one barely perceptible, yet quick and decisive movement?

Unfortunately, he has been unable to pass on his skills to those who have been attending his seminars for years, so who knows what the answer(s) are to that problem - clearly communication is one of the issues.
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Old Yesterday, 04:32 AM   #27
Dazzler
Dojo: Bristol North Aikido Dojo
Location: Bristol
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 654
England
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe when the IP proponents switch from "stupid jin tricks" mode to "winning olympic medals" mode all this arguing could stop.
You mean like the Olympic TKD people? oh dear....this was going going so well and then "stupid" & "tricks" are hurled around.

Theres nothing stupid about this work ....rewiring the brain is about as challenging as it gets.....if anyone thinks its a bunch of tricks.....you have not been training with the right people.

Oh well...I take solace in the growing numbers of those endorsing the work. Proportionally its far higher than it used to be so either the penny is dropping....or the brainwashing is so good that its affecting more and more people.

I don't think so.
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Old Yesterday, 09:44 AM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,115
Spain
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post
You mean like the Olympic TKD people? oh dear....this was going going so well and then "stupid" & "tricks" are hurled around.
Sorry but the "stupid jin tricks" has been coined by well known internal training proponents who used to post here. I was merely using your lingo.

And Olympic TKD sucks, trust me, I know it well.
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Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM   #29
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 729
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Sorry but the "stupid jin tricks" has been coined by well known internal training proponents who used to post here. I was merely using your lingo.
...
Service to the community: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=258985

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Old Yesterday, 02:23 PM   #30
Gene McGloin
Dojo: Bond St. Dojo
Location: Bronx, NY
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

If you lack basic fighting skills, then no, you are not invincible simply because you "have" "aiki". You have to know how to use those skills.
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Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM   #31
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 958
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

There are enough people teaching it competently now, that you should go where the endorsements are, with a realistic expectation of being able to pick up something of value.

By endorsements, I mean recommendations from people who have trained for an adequate amount of time (as direct students, or participants in several or more seminars with one teacher) and have gained demonstrable, measurable skill and understanding.

I don't mean they must have expertise -- that will take some years of progressive study, training and development; however, they should be able to demonstrate and explain, to you, what they are doing on some level that is truly observable. Then you can make a reasonable assumption that the person they learned it from has some skills and the ability (and well-intentioned willingness) to teach it to others.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : Yesterday at 03:27 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM   #32
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Spain
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
There are enough people teaching it competently now, that you should go where the endorsements are, with a realistic expectation of being able to pick up something of value.
Exactly.
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Old Yesterday, 10:04 PM   #33
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 130
Serbia
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Igor, is not that complicated.
It would seem so Demetrio, but don't forget, these are Aiki(do) matters we are discussing here.

Quote:
Aiki is retraining the body via set of exercises, it makes your aikido better or at least closer to the original aikido: what the Founder did.
That would be the ideal situation.

Quote:
This kind of power is not for everyone because it requires lots of time and effort and, for performing mainstream aikido, is not really needed. Thousands of people are doing aikido without internal power and they're doing fine.
Ehh. Maybe hundreds.

Quote:
So, if you want to do aikido the most closely possible to what Ueshiba did, internal power is needed. If you want to do contemporary aikido then do what your instructors ask you to do and if you want to learn to fight... well, there are lots of places where you can learn how to fight.
It's not just internal power, Ueshiba trained since his youth, Sumo, a couple of Ryuha's, Judo (somewhat), army sergeant, went to war, not to mention that he was a physical specimen, force of nature if you will. Takeda also, traveled intensively, got in near death situations, always on the alert, basically paranoid. That's how they lived. What i am wondering is did that life(style?) had effect on their achieving such high levels of Aiki in a relatively shorter time frame then other people. Makes one wonder.

Quote:
Fighting is another thing and requires not only strength (internal, external or a combination of both) but also strategy, timing, mindset , viable techniques (those that not depend on partner collusion for them to work) and a lot other things. A body with aiki is useful for fighting but the other elements are also required, especially if your opponent knows what he is doing.
As for fights, you have to make a distinction between sport matches and street situations, war situations are a totally different topic. In matches you have to have a strategy, mindset, awareness of the fact that your opponent is also as much as prepared as you or even more, all of which you mentioned. But also you have to have in mind that you have time to prepare yourself, analyze your opponent, do extra physical training (weight training, strength training) if needed etc. On the street, mostly, it's your basic instincts, from which you develop everything else, that determine the outcome. That's were most Aikido people fail. Why? They never develop the proper instinct for such situations because they lack the desire for it. For instance several guys from my club (dojo) were/are doormen, they didn't/don't have problems applying Aikido. They don't deal only with your ordinary drunks, there were trained people among those they had to deal with, albeit not champions but still dangerous and sober. Everything else, experience, strategies, techniques comes from those instincts for which they had a desire to develop through their training. Most people, hell 90% probably, just don't have that desire. Like Peter said, they just wanna get some exercise and grab a beer afterwards.

As for the viable techniques, all techniques in Aikido are viable, but like i said, people don't develop instincts on how to use them. Here is a good idea of somebody who has a good instinct would use Kokyu Nage, at 7:08 and a similar move at 7:20: https://www.facebook.com/LawrenceKen...4587955885915/
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Old Yesterday, 11:25 PM   #34
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 958
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

Internal skills, aiki, are passed from teacher to student directly -- jikiden, direct transmission. It is inculcated largely through feeling what the teacher is doing inside his body, then intuiting those movements and processes oneself. There are also solo exercises (tanren, forging drills) that one can do to develop the internal mechanics, but jikiden is the primary way that aiki has traditional been taught.

In order to receive that transmission, a student has to have a lot of physical, hands-on training with the teacher or a senior student who has aiki, at least for an intensive period of time. Morihei Ueshiba evidently had adequate, intensive periods of training with Sokaku Takeda to develop the skills. His other physical training in bayonet, etc. had nothing... nothing to do with his development of aiki. That could come only by jikiden from someone who had aiki -- Takeda.

Here's an example of jikiden of aiki, from Horikawa Koko (deshi of Takeda, and founder of Daito Ryu Kodokai). Starting at 14 seconds into the video, he is giving a lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8H4Fi43pPw
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Old Yesterday, 11:50 PM   #35
Cady Goldfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 958
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Re: Are you invincible if you possess Aiki?

The above should have read "Horikawa Kodo," not "Koko"... late night typo.
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