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Old 01-25-2004, 02:05 AM   #26
PeterR
 
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Generally I agree with Giancarlo's post in that most arts are a sign of their times. Even those that survive as historical throwbacks do so because the time allows it. Some arts evolve from their source faster than others.

But I'm on my coffee break so .....
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
Not a chance, and the fact that people would even consider this a serious question is indicative of a kind of flawed thinking prevalant in aikido. Daito-ryu, the precursor to aikido, was developed from an art for castle bodyguards. Hence the suwari-waza, non-lethal defence against bladed weapons, and stylized techniques.
I've heard this before and don't think it is correct. Assasins and bodyguards did not do their business shikko-ing all over the place and performing stylized techniques. Nor was non-lethal defence an option - the business was done as quickly as possible. In my opinion both kata and suwariwaza techniques had more to do with training than practicallity. A case could be made for hanza handachi techniques being useful but not suwariwaza.

The Lord of a Castle did not live in the Keep but in a manor in a secure area. A good example of this can be seen at Nijo Castle in Kyoto. Near the dias of the reception room are flimsy doors wrapped in big red ribbons. Basically guards with swords drawn waited on little stools for any signal that once given would result in anyone in the Lord's section of the room being cut down - the Lord excepted. Even within this reception room, sometimes you were on your knees and sometimes not.

That aside modern Budo including Aikido developed during a time when self defence was really no different than today. Knives were common, revolvers existed, armour wasn't worn and neither were swords. Now of course Giancarlo was making a distinction about modern battlefield versus ancient but I want to stress that the considerations that went into the developement of Aikido with respect to martial technique have really not changed.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-25-2004, 07:52 AM   #27
dave Clarke
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In response to James Giles page 1 I would like to say this. I remember reading an article a little while ago about a top practitioner who trained extensively with O'Sensei and was influential in setting up aikido in Hawaii and the US I think it was Tohei but I can't be sure. Any how, when he started teaching in Hawaii he found that some of his techniques didn't work as well on his hawaian ukes(excuse my spelling) he found that they were stronger then their Japanese counterparts with more powerful joints. Rather then doubting aikido or doubting his uke's he believed in his aiki principles and apparently adapted them and found a way of executing his technique.

That is what I feel ego is about. Its about I grab, you try and do a technique. If you cant do it or you cant move me or break my posture and balance. (Please also note I am not referring to being difficult and countering or tomiki Randori). Its just a process. I grab you again and we find out why regardless of grade or age or respect. Respect in aikido I feel comes from respecting that aikido is a killing art in the same way that you respect a gun or a sword. That's how I feel anyway. I may be wrong
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:00 AM   #28
L. Camejo
 
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Just checking my sources here - didn't S. Takeda's Daito Ryu (Aiki) Jujutsu evolve from both Oshiki Uchi (the palace martial art of the Aizu retainers) and another more widely taught form of jujutsu called kogusoku? (aka Daito ryu or Daido ryu according to draeger), both of which were taught to S. Takeda when chosen to carry on the legacy of the style?

Just wondering is all, I don't think that S. Takeda's Daito Ryu came ONLY from a palace bodyguard system.

As far as the initial question goes I think the issue people have with the "martiality" question has to do with the fact that most of us in the present day are practicing all of these ex military fighting systems regardless of style or country of origin, without replicating an important element of what made up the original training systems, i.e. combat.

So I don't think that Aikido or any of the other styles are not effective, they just tend to lack the training mechanism that mimics the results gained from old style combat. This is where the competition idea comes in for some, as it's often the closest we can safely get to the lessons learned from open resistance and combat. It's not a perfect copy, but like modern day war games for modern soldiers, it is the best they can get short of shooting each other with live ammo. I guess this is why the U.S. military spends so much on high tech training stuff for their troops. It's in an effort to replicate actual combat as closely as possible without ending up with a bunch of dead soldiers on your hands.

I've found as well, the more dangerous the techniques taught in the style, the less likely it is that these techs will be used all out in competition or kumite, again for the reasons of safety and preservation of the practitioners at some level.

If we look at Capoeira (which had been used by Brazilian slaves to aid in an insurrection), it is now taught much like a dance, maybe because to really apply it will result in a lot of maimed bodies. Similar things go for Aikido and Wushu. Even Tomiki had to modify things a bit to delay joints snapping under intense resistance and such. I guess the problem comes when we try to maintain safety so much that we end up on the other side of the coin where the thing becomes martially useless.

Just some thoughts.

Arigato Gozaimashita

L.C.

Last edited by L. Camejo : 01-25-2004 at 08:03 AM.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 01-25-2004, 09:02 AM   #29
James Giles
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Quote:
Chris Birke wrote:
Yes, the solution to all discussion is to declare those you disagree with unworthy of having an opinion. Such a marvelous and wise tradition! I applaud your lack of ego.
Thank you Chris! I thought I hit the nail on the head!
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:23 PM   #30
James Giles
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In response to David Clark,I think I know what you are talking about. (Tohei ?) added skips or hops to his style of Aikido techniques to add momentum and to make up for the size and strength advantages of uke.

I haven't been practicing Aikido for that long, but I have noticed that the size and strength of uke don't really matter if the technique is applied properly. I've also learned that nage should not wait until uke actually gets a firm grip(grab) on him/her. If nage hesitates long enough to get "caught", it is too late for the technique alone to work. Timing is the key, and that is why it takes practice. Properly timed, the techniques of Aikido can be used effectively against any attack with devastating results.

When I mentioned ego earlier, the point I was trying to make was that most practicioners of Aikido are confident in themselves and their abilities, and do not feel the need to go out and prove to the world (i.e. other martial arts forums, etc.) that they can handle a street fight, or that Aikido is any better than such and such other martial art (BJJ for example). They are at peace within themselves and this is true victory.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:08 PM   #31
Chris Birke
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James, that made my morning! =D

No one here is trying to proove that BJJ is better than Aikido. Some of us just do more than one martial art, and it's impossible not to end up with comparisons.

Thus, when things don't stack up, we want to fix it. Nothing is perfect, not even Aikido. If you think it is, you're being religious, not logical.

If the idea that everything has room for improvement offends you, you shouldn't be doing Aikido at all as it's nothing but a postmodernists Jiu Jitsu.

If I blow bubbles and call it Aikido I won't be as well served as if I actually hit the mat. What is the best way to train, that's what we want to know.
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:09 PM   #32
jvadakin
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Thank-you all for responding. I'm glad most of you realized I was asking a legitimate question and not just "trolling." I have some varied background in the martial arts and tried Aikido last summer. I did not enjoy it at all and no longer practice. My experience was that it seemed like a mix of new age mystisim, dance, and samurai etiquite that was founded on a system that was once quite deadly within its time and context. All martial arts are like this to a large degree, as they are usually quite useless for pure self-defense in any situation that would require such defense (e.g. muggers would very likely have weapons). I'm sure Aikido has some level of self-defense usefullness, but it seems certain that this usefullness may be less in extent and is certainly slower to develop than in other systems (and indeed perhaps even less than the deterence value bestowed by heavy weightlifting). Is that a weakness-- only if development of self-defense in a timely matter is a goal. For most of you, self-defense is clearly not a priority. Spirtual and physical development are your priorities and you believe that there will be some residual self-defense benefits. In a sense, Aikido is closer to a religon that other martial arts (you use the words budo and Aiki in a religous way). I'm glad so many of you have found an activity that is so rewarding to you. I'm sure that you get more from your Aikido than the paranoid guys obsessed with learning the most practical and effective martial arts at all costs ["I grew so much as a person today by practicing those eye gouges" ]. I work out and swim quite regularly and I think if I ever got back into the martial arts it would be more for the fact that MA is an enjoyable way to work out and can be astheticly pleasing, with residual self-defense benfits (a well practiced punch in the nose is better than a non-practiced punch in the nose I guess). So, I think I would try TKD, not because its much more (or any) effective than Aikido, but because the exercises are typicaly more exhausting, and I think spinning kicks are pretty . I don't personaly feel that I would ever grow spirtualy from MA. I get that elsewhere. Thanks for responding, I think I understand why Aikido is so popular now, even if I cannot personaly appreciate it. To each his own. Good luck on your own journies. (how postmodern a sentiment ).
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:39 PM   #33
James Giles
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Yes Chris, I can understand your point of view. But I am a little leary when someone wants to improve on something.

For example, when people tried to make improvements to America's social structure, the results were an explosive crime rate and a public school system that turns out illiterates at the speed of light. When people tried to improve on the English language, Ebonics was born. But many people who weren't around when conditions were indeed better, see these "progressive" changes as improvements.

I would hate to see this same trend extended into the realm of Aikido. I think that Aikido techniques are within themselves pure and efficient for handling martial situations. I realize that they were derived from JuJitsu, but they were not bastardized to the point that they became unrecognizable.

As for mixed-martial arts, I think it is great to learn several martial arts. I have taken TKD, Kung-Fu, and a few months of BJJ. I guess if it came down to a real street-fight situation I would draw off of a combination of one or more of these arts with my Aikido training. But, from what I have learned so far in my training, Aikido techniques are sufficient within themselves to handle most every situation if applied with the right timing.

Oh, and as for blowing bubbles, I don't know about your Aikido dojo, but in mine we don't blow bubbles! Of course we don't wrestle around on the floor and sweat all over each other for extended periods of time, but we are practicing Aikido, not BJJ!

I guess really what I am trying to say is that although something is not "perfect", sometimes it is better to leave well enough alone than to bastardize it into some other form, and then again... maybe it is better to try. I guess time will tell.

Thanks for responding, James
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Old 01-25-2004, 08:09 PM   #34
PeterR
 
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Quote:
James Vadakin (jvadakin) wrote:
Thank-you all for responding. I'm glad most of you realized I was asking a legitimate question and not just "trolling." I have some varied background in the martial arts and tried Aikido last summer. I did not enjoy it at all and no longer practice. My experience was that it seemed like a mix of new age mystisim, dance, and samurai etiquite that was founded on a system that was once quite deadly within its time and context.
I take it back - you are a troll. You practiced in one Dojo for a couple of months and then quit, hid the fact by putting an Aikido affiliation in your signature, and make pronouncements on Aikido as a whole.

That little rant out of the way. Some of the most fit individuals I deal with on a regular basis are Aikidoists. In fact the last time I trained in a TKD dojo a man 20 years my Junior and looking a lot more fit (I'm what one calls delightfully slim) begged me to slow down while he caught his breath. One of my main Aikido teachers/sempai was Olympic caliber TKD (he was on the National team) but gave that up for some very intense Aikido practice. No new age mystisim here either.

I do think that your average TKD dojo is going to get you fitter, faster than your average Aikido dojo. The above is based on my experience.

Rant number 2 out of the way.

You have to find what suits you. It took me years of this or that to find the Aikido I do. I actully spent most of those avoiding Aikido for what I felt were the right reasons. At this point I am glad I did even thoug I wish I had found what I eventually found earlier.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-26-2004, 01:51 AM   #35
G DiPierro
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Quote:
Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
Theoretically, THE PRINCIPLES of aikido has the answer to all the martial art situations out there.
Oh, I see. You meant that the principles of aikido, as opposed to the techniques, I presume, have the answer to all martial situations out there. That's much different. So how about I propose a couple of martial situations and then you explain how the principles of aikido have the answer to them?

First situation:

You are a foot soldier in late 16th century Japan. You are about to engage the enemy, and are armed with a spear, along with perhaps a dagger or dirk for back-up, and are wearing light, crudely made armor. There are between 50 and 100 other soldiers on each side, most armed like you. As you advance to begin your attack, arrows begin raining all around you from archers in rear positions.

Second situation:

You are a special forces operative in the United States army in late 2003. You are in the battle zone in Iraq, and you are preparing to take a building where it is believed that an American POW is being held. You are armed with the latest technology in small automatic weapons, bulletproof vests, and night-vision goggles.

How do aikido principles hold the solution to these two martial situations?

I picked these two very different situations from different eras and cultures not because they are unusual but because they are actually quite common scenarios for professional soldiers in either of those milieus. This is what they train for. In neither case will aikido be of much use. Rather, the very specialized training that they received specifically for those exact situations may be what makes the difference between life and death for them and their comrades and between success and failure for their mission.

Believing that aikido somehow magically holds all the answers to martial situations is exactly the kind of flawed thinking to which I was referring in my initial post. I use the word "magically" specifically because this is the kind of belief involved. Many people in aikido take its effectiveness as a matter of faith rather than of empirical investigation. They approach aikido as if it were a religion rather than a martial art. Many want to believe that their teacher is perfect (or at least spiritually superior to them) and would never teach something that is ineffective or incorrect, and so they don't even bother considering that possibility.

Yet paradoxically, refusing to question the effectiveness of one's technique is exactly what leads to it becoming ineffective. Because students and teachers never bother to find out if what they are doing actually works, they become lazy and slip into a careless form of practice, repeating useless or ineffectual movements over and over and perpetuating the delusional notion that what they are doing actually works when it obviously does not.

In fact, aikido can be martially effective within the limited parameters I outlined in my previous post. It comes from an art that was primarily for Edo period retainers, who were more concerned with keeping the peace than with waging war, and depending on how similar any other situation is to that specific situation, aikido will have more or less applicability to such a situation.

As it turns out, modern self-defense for private citizens, police, and others is more similar to that situation than it is different, and hence aikido can have a significant degree of effectiveness in such modern applications. However, in order for it to achieve this potential, one must look realistically at the capabilities and limitations of the art and its practice. People who choose to blindly believe that aikido holds the magic solution to all martial situations without seriously investigating its effectiveness in any of them will never understand nor manifest the attitudes and principles which make aikido an effective martial art.
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Old 01-26-2004, 02:31 AM   #36
PeterR
 
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A little unfair - Aikido is a form of jujutsu for lightly armed combat. Your ancient Japanese warrior practiced for those situations as does your modern day equivilent.

Now of course once you toss in uneven ground, heavy equipement, cumbersome armour alot of what you would/could do goes out the window. As the Edo period procressed you saw more and more specialization and since most of what could possibly go wrong involved the back streets of [insert favourite town here] that wasn't a terrible thing.

Good Budo training isn't just about the waza - its training a frame of mind and core technical principles that should keep and/or get you out of trouble. Understanding that allows you to actually move between different Budo relatively easily. <--- that means learning the waza is far easier than for one who doesn't understand.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 01-26-2004, 05:59 AM   #37
bogglefreak20
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Re: "Martial" Art

Quote:
James Vadakin (jvadakin) wrote:
...Aikido focuses on the spirtual, aesthetic and exercise benifits of Art, while often igroring the practical self-defense possibities. I wonder if this is a good thing? Aikido has many holds and locks that do have practical appliciblity, but they are usually not taught in a way that would prepare someone to use them actively in self-defense...I wonder, what is it that attracts people to Aikido? Why do some people prefer Aikido to other arts or even to pure Zen meditation? Is it a sort of martial dance?...I just cannot understand Aikido.
I have been training in Ki Aikido since last october, so im in my second year. A complete rookie, not worthy of the name of aikidoka. Still my opinion about Aikido, Ki Aikido that is, is as follows:

I chose to train Ki Aikido at our dojo precisely because it doesn't have competitions (for me those are an ego-trip - my opinion only) and because it emphasizes the connection of body and mind. I don't see it just as excercise (though some at our dojo do) or as pure meditation - I see it as a way to achieve peace of mind together with physical bonuses (fitness, reflex, balance...). Our teacher often says to beginners: "If you're looking to learn self-defense, go train somewhere else." So much for the official aspect of the dojo. And I like it that way. Besides, I don't believe Aikido can be learned as an effective self-defense technique in less than 10 years. All those 3-month self-defense courses don't persuade me.

When I first went to visit the training at the dojo to decide whether or not I want to join I saw the training of aikidoka with about 5-7 years of experience. The first thought that went through my mind was "This is just like dancing!" And I fell in love with Aikido on first sight. In my opinion both dancing and Aikido are natural movement or at least should be done that way as much as possible.

About understanding Aikido - I don't suppose anyone understands Aikido. I suppose Morihei Ueshiba was the only one who did. All of us just have an idea about what Aikido is. If we understood it then there wouldn't be a need for forums like this one. My opinion only.

All the best to all of you!

Miha
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:31 AM   #38
indomaresa
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Certainly, I will be delighted to explain ANYTHING you wish to know

( flexing logic )
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
First situation:

You are a foot soldier in late 16th century Japan. You are about to engage the enemy, and are armed with a spear, along with perhaps a dagger or dirk for back-up, and IS (not are)wearing light, crudely made armor. There are between 50 and 100 other soldiers on each side, most armed like you.

As you advance to begin your attack, arrows begin raining all around you from archers in rear positions.

How do aikido principles hold the solution to these two martial situations?
Run like a rabbit.

or...

Awase; blending. Application of this principle will be to disguise myself to match the surroundings, or wear enemy colours, BEFORE approaching enemy position, AT NIGHT.

To humour your question however, when the first arrows fall I will first attempt to find a shelter / crevice / crack / depression on the ground, make myself small as possible and then turn around to protect the upper body, the lower body be damned. Assuming I'm still alive and their foot soldiers advances to finish me, I'd either escape when the arrow hail ceased, or lie in wait until

they approach, to disarm all 200 footmen with my trusty spear, saving the backup dagger in case their cavalry appears.

(hypothetical question = hypothetical answer)

Zanshin; to be aware of your surroundings. being surrounded like your example is like the big 'no-no' in zanshin.

However, again, to humour you if I was surrounded I would at least have ample information of the battlefield via scouting around the day before to find an escape route. Or find out where the enemy is weakest and escape there.
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
Second situation:

You are a special forces operative in the United States army in late 2003. You are in the battle zone in Iraq, and you are preparing to take a building where it is believed that an American POW is being held. You are armed with the latest technology in small automatic weapons, bulletproof vests, and night-vision goggles.

How do aikido principles hold the solution to these two martial situations?
I would rather die than work for any army to do anything in a country that isn't their business. However, disregarding my opinion / preference, and to humour your question;

This is a tactical problem, not martial. Martial situation is when agression is coming your way.

Zanshin: find out how many iraqi military personnels is in and around the building, how many non-military personnels is in and around the building, what weaponry and communication equipments they have and their security routine. An assessment of their mental and physical state is also important, as is their discipline level.

Awase: Again, camouflage myself and proceed at night, or at the most desirable timetable ( i.e : islamic praying hours, or 20 minutes prior to security change ), blend in with their culture and habits.

With enough intelligence and sufficient observation, the resulting plan to secure the POW's can be carried out without any casualty or a single bullet fired.

Diversions, Subversions, Misinformation, deception, dispersion and attrition are all considerable methods to additionally ensure success.

The rest is just maintaining a flowing mind to anticipate changes.

Note: It'd be easier to do it by remembering to exercise the basic principles; shuchu-ryoku ( concentration ), kokyu-ryoku ( breathing ), chushin-ryoku ( center)

The benefits of those basic principles; clarity, calmness, conserving stamina and better muscle co-ordination.

----------------------------------------
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
I picked these two very different situations from different eras and cultures not because they are unusual but because they are actually quite common scenarios for professional soldiers in either of those milieus. This is what they train for. In neither case will aikido be of much use. Rather, the very specialized training that they received specifically for those exact situations may be what makes the difference between life and death for them and their comrades and between success and failure for

their mission.
Why not train them to handle any situation using their logic?

Because the question is "how do aikido principles hold the solution to this martial problem?", I answered by interpreting the basic principles of aikido in its relevant actual usage, in life.

Some of the military geniouses in the past is very 'aiki' because they can blend in with the tactical situation, be aware of theirs and enemy's assets and to always maintain

musubi with the flow of battle. Resulting in victory with minimum casualties.
Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
Believing that aikido somehow magically holds all the answers to martial situations is exactly the kind of flawed thinking....

Many people in aikido take its effectiveness as a matter of faith rather than of empirical....

....Many want to believe that their teacher is perfect (or at least spiritually superior to them) and would never teach something that is ineffective or incorrect, and so they don't even bother considering that possibility.

....Because students and teachers never bother to find out if what they are doing actually works, they become lazy and slip into a careless form of practice, repeating useless or ineffectual movements over and over and perpetuating the delusional notion that what they are doing actually works when it obviously does not.

...People who choose to blindly believe that aikido holds the magic solution to all martial situations without seriously investigating its effectiveness in any of them will never understand nor manifest the attitudes and principles which make aikido an
effective martial art.
I agree. It's happens sometimes. Just don't lump everyone together, or assume anything about aikido. I think every aikido practitioner should read this to maintain their perspective, but your describing "ancient martial art consisting an array of bare-handed techniques to uphold peace" is self-limiting your training.

Aikido training is vast, the styles are numerous and its application infinite. No single person can claim to know what aikido cannot do.

My suggestion; go around more, visit more dojos, styles, or learn aikido to its limits BEFORE delivering your verdict.

I don't know enough of aikido to handle every martial art situation and I'm pretty sure you didn't either.

----------------------------------------

By the way, from your hypothetical questions I assume that you MUST'VE KNOWN another martial art that can ALSO find the solution for your "what-if" situation.

May I know what it is? I am truly interested and sincerely wish to enroll.

And one more thing, what would you do in those situations? I'm curious. You don't have to answer it though.

thank you for the exercise in logic.

Last edited by indomaresa : 01-26-2004 at 08:42 AM.

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The path is steep...
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:41 AM   #39
jvadakin
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Peter,

With all due respect, you cannot expect people to dedicate years of their lives to something they try with an open mind but then find tedious. I paid for a 3-month package and attended almost every day that I could, so I feel I gave it a good go. Life is too short to spend our free time forcing ourselves to do things which give us little value. The reason I started this post after all these months was that I had always wondered how people could have such a different response to the art than I did, not to start a flame war. In a sense, I want to understand the mind of the Aikidoist. I can easily understand why a TKD tournament fighter enjoys his sport, or why my friend the police officer is so crazy about Karate and BJJ, but it was less clear to me why Aikido is so popular. Also, the bloody Dojo tag is from when I actually was attending and I have no idea how to remove it now (and it doesn't matter since I'll never post here again). Cheers.
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:21 AM   #40
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
In a sense, I want to understand the mind of the Aikidoist.
Good luck. We don't all have the same mind.

Ron (yoshinkan mind here) Tisdale

PS Not even all people in the same style share the same mind.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:49 AM   #41
Jesse Lee
Dojo: Tenzan Aikido, formerly named Seattle Aikikai
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you cannot expect people to dedicate years of their lives to something they try with an open mind but then find tedious. I paid for a 3-month package and attended almost every day that I could, so I feel I gave it a good go. Life is too short to spend our free time forcing ourselves to do things which give us little value.
I totally agree with that, James. You are no troll, and your post was fine. Good luck with your training.

, can't find m s
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Old 01-26-2004, 01:09 PM   #42
Bronson
 
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Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
You are a foot soldier in late 16th century Japan. You are about to engage the enemy, and are armed with a spear, along with perhaps a dagger or dirk for back-up, and are wearing light, crudely made armor. There are between 50 and 100 other soldiers on each side, most armed like you. As you advance to begin your attack, arrows begin raining all around you from archers in rear positions.
Don't get "arrowed".
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Giancarlo DiPierro (G DiPierro) wrote:
You are a special forces operative in the United States army in late 2003. You are in the battle zone in Iraq, and you are preparing to take a building where it is believed that an American POW is being held. You are armed with the latest technology in small automatic weapons, bulletproof vests, and night-vision goggles.
Don't get shot.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 01-27-2004, 04:38 AM   #43
G DiPierro
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Maresa Sumardi (indomaresa) wrote:
To humour your question however, when the first arrows fall I will first attempt to find a shelter / crevice / crack / depression on the ground, make myself small as possible and then turn around to protect the upper body, the lower body be damned. Assuming I'm still alive and their foot soldiers advances to finish me, I'd either escape when the arrow hail ceased, or lie in wait until

they approach, to disarm all 200 footmen with my trusty spear, saving the backup dagger in case their cavalry appears.
If you did this as a retainer and were not killed by the enemy, you would be forced to commit seppuku. So this strategy would only get you killed. If you call that a "solution" to this martial situation, then it is a pretty bad one.
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By the way, from your hypothetical questions I assume that you MUST'VE KNOWN another martial art that can ALSO find the solution for your "what-if" situation.

May I know what it is? I am truly interested and sincerely wish to enroll.
For the first situation, several koryu teach sojustu, the art of spear fighting. They are descendents of the arts that were actually taught to ashigaru and other soldiers of that time period. If you were even able to find a licensed teacher of such a system, which is very difficult to do outside of Japan, you might not even be accepted as a student. If you were sincerely interested in such an art, though, then I would start at the Koryu Books Web site. You should also purchase and read their three-volume series of books on koryu.

For the second situation, you would have to study urban warfare techniques such as are taught to police SWAT teams, army special forces, and others. I'm not sure how you could get this kind of training as a private citizen, but I suspect that if you were willing pay enough for it you would find someone to teach it to you.
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And one more thing, what would you do in those situations? I'm curious. You don't have to answer it though.
I would apply the skills I had learned through the specialized training I would have received and attempt to successfully accomplish the mission. It's really not that difficult of a question. My point was simply to illustrate that it is ridiculous to believe that the principles of aikido can be universally applied to all martial situations.
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Old 01-27-2004, 11:01 AM   #44
Ron Tisdale
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I found this article, and thought it might have some interest here, in light of certain posts.

RT
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My name is Tadashi Abe. Sensei, could I ask you a direct question?". I told him to ask me anything. He asked if I was really studying aiki jujutsu seriously. At that time the art was not yet called aikido. When I replied I was, he said:

"Ace you really? I have heard about you, Sensei, for a long time. I heard that you have had experience in actual fighting situations. I think it is strange that a person like you feels satisfied with an art like aiki jujutsu." When I asked why he thought so he said that Ueshiba Sensei or Mr. Morhiro Saito would not be able to stand against him in a match even for three minutes because he would defeat them with one blow.

"You're quite boastful, aren't you?", I replied. "You feel confident that you can defeat Ueshiba Sensei?", I added. He said that he thought it would be easy for him to defeat Sensei and added:

"Although I have been observing Ueshiba Sensei for a long time, I don't feel like practicing an art like aiki jujutsu. I feel confident that I can defeat him with one boxing punch. I hear that you emphasize actual fighting. Is that true?"

I replied as follows:

"I have been in many street-fights but I wouldn't include them in the category of actual fighting. I have also drawn a sword and stormed the enemy camp."

Then he asked me whether or not aikido was really useful for fighting. When I replied that aikido was very useful not only for fights but also in times of war, he said my answer didn't convince him. So I suggested that he attack me and stood there telling him to come anyway he wanted. He asked me to adopt a ready stance. I told him:

"Don't say unnecessary things. There is no way for someone to defeat his enemy if he tells him what to do. Attack me as you like!"

Abe still mumbled: "Sensei, can I really strike you? Strange... You have openings everywhere..." Then he took a stance and suddenly came straight in. I dodged the blow and kicked him with my leg. He groaned and fell. I applied a resuscitation technique and massaged him.

"How can a person like you who faints when he catches a little kick last in a fight?"

"Sensei, does aikido also have kicking techniques?"

"You fool! What do you mean by such a question? We use kicking techniques or anything else. I even used artillery. Martial arts, guns and artillery are all aikido. What do you think aikido is? Do you think it involves only the twisting of hands? It is a means of war... an act of war! aikido is a fight with real swords. We use the word 'aiki' because through it we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately. Look at Sumo. After the command is given ("Miatte! Miatte!), they stand up and go at each other in a flash. That's the same as aiki. When a person suddenly faces his enemy in an mental state free from all ideas and thoughts and is instantly able to deal with him, we call that aiki. In the old days it was called 'aiki no jutsu'. Therefore, artillery or anything else becomes aiki." "Is that so... I think I understand." "If you still don't understand, come to me again." After that he was afraid of me and bowed to me from far off. When I went to Europe he asked me to take him as well.
From :

http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=369

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 01-27-2004, 01:00 PM   #45
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Aikido is truly what you make it. I believe that is the general concensus here. It can be any and all things depending on the person or it can be full of sh*$.

I am grateful that I had great karate teachers before coming to aikido. I've seen so many different things in aikido that if I hadn't had that background I probably would have been discouraged. I chose to get certain things out of my training regardless of the particular emphasis of a teacher or style. Like all things, you learn what you need to in order to progress in the system but make sure you retain what you need also. A certain agressiveness is so ingrained in me from karate and I have made the decision to retain it. I am experienced enough that I can control it. I disagree with the statement that we live in a society where the "martial" of old is not applicable. You can defend against a good hook punch with the same principles we use in yokomenuchi ikkyo.

But more than anything it is the cultivation and refinement of my Self that keeps me training in aikido. I didn't come to aikido to learn to fight. It is my interest in the process of development that keeps me hungry. I find that aikido techniques are just the outward expression of what is going on inside of me. Just a gauge.
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Old 01-27-2004, 01:57 PM   #46
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a tangent......

Quote:
Aikido is truly what you make it. I believe that is the general concensus here.
I disagree, and I suspect you do as well.

Walk into a dojo and one would expect to see ikkyo, nikkyo and the like...students in gi and hakama...bowing and sitting in seiza as class structure indicates. If one saw men and women in t-shirts, wearing shorts, shoes and gloves, hitting heavy bags and "sparring" in a ring, one would assume they walked into a boxing gym.

The point is, not everything is "aikido", a distinction you made yourself by saying you trained karate (something not aikido) before starting aikido.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-27-2004, 02:00 PM   #47
Ron Tisdale
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Of course you are correct Paul, but it is interesting to note, for instance, that a well known aikido instructor in the 1978 Aiki Friendship demonstration, used quite a few lessons and movements from, guess what, boxing, in his demonstration. And it seemed to work quite well...

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-27-2004, 02:39 PM   #48
paw
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used quite a few lessons and movements from, guess what, boxing, in his demonstration. And it seemed to work quite well...
I have no doubt.
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a well known aikido instructor in the 1978 Aiki Friendship demonstration,
I wonder if this is why the demonstration was accepted, when Mr. DeLucia is being taken to task for integrating MMA with aikido on another thread.....but I digress.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 01-27-2004, 03:16 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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I wonder if this is why the demonstration was accepted, when Mr. DeLucia is being taken to task for integrating MMA with aikido on another thread.....but I digress.
Well, with Mr. Delucia, I think people had some legitimate questions, which he seems to have answered. Personally, I think he can pretty much do what he wants...but that doesn't mean that people won't ask questions, or that they won't disagree...

I should add that I think there is some difference between someone who trained with the founder of the art, and someone who has been hesitant (apparently) to disclose the specifics of his training history. Of course, maybe I just missed the post where Mr. Delucia disclosed that information.

RT

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 01-27-2004 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 01-27-2004, 04:08 PM   #50
AsimHanif
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Aikido is truly what you make it. I believe that is the general concensus here. It can be any and all things depending on the person or it can be full of sh*$.

This was my full quote. Meaning there are many ways to look at aikido. To each his/her own.

I can easily see the similarities in boxing and aikido. The principles of movement are very much the same.

When I say "aikido is what you make it", I am not saying it is "everything". You can look at aikido from so many different perspectives and train in a manner that best suites your needs.
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