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Old 05-04-2005, 09:30 PM   #76
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
2 Years of MMA have have made me twice as good (probably much much more), then 5 years of Aikido training, empty handed.

When engaged in weapons conflict I had no trouble useing Aikido, in empty handed combat I never used any of the techniques (or AIki) of Aikido.

-Chris Hein
Your mileage may vary, because I found a thread in Usenet where some MMA guys say they have used Aikido techniques in sparring, and like them. (May only work one time per customer, durn it.)

Here is the link to the thread (which is on Google so you can access it without a password ):

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...093ca4a5707294

Have a nice day.

Mike
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:48 PM   #77
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Indeed, maybe I should spend years of my life doing the same thing over and over trying to hide from the real facts of life.

-Chris
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Old 05-04-2005, 09:59 PM   #78
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Well, there you have it...Good luck in your training.

You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have ... (highly skilled ninjas tackling you at beaches and family picnics) - you know, the real facts of life.

When you think about it like that, I should start hiding! In fact, forget I was ever here.

- Certainly not Rob
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Old 05-04-2005, 10:07 PM   #79
maikerus
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Chris, I hate to say it but your last few posts are costing you serious credibility points.

Maybe you'll understand when you're older.

--Michael

Last edited by maikerus : 05-04-2005 at 10:11 PM.

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-04-2005, 11:41 PM   #80
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Re: Aikido challenges today

The original title is "Aikido challenges today" and somehow this thread has degenerated into a 'Is aikido effective'esque' type of thread which has been discussed as nauseum. Having said that it is still a relevant question as long conflict still exist amongst mankind.

Some proponent of MMA and equivalent are looking at aikido from their angle i.e., can she stand on her own against grappler, boxers etc. That I let you discuss amongst yourself 'till the cows come home.

Now let me put forth my perspective. Aikido was designed from combat purpose to allow soldiers to handle multiple opponents and to negate the effect of size/brute strength in her utilization. It was not designed to be a mano-o-mano type of slug fest as many people would think (Not that practical in those UFC type situation). That type of situation would favour IMO, strength and physical prowess.

Now, let's address a group of practitioner whom this thread has mostly ignored: Women. Yes, womenfolk has every right to self defense against crime. What some earlier post had discussed was in a very narrow context of grappling to the ground etc. Again a very mano-o-mano type of situation. If you are a woman or teaches woman class you will quickly realize that many of those grappling type MA is not suitable. A hit and run type of tactic (e.g. aikido type techs) are more useful. Again, my caveat not all aikido techs are suitable. One very quickly realize that as one progress in the art/teaches the art to woman.

I have a book Vital Karate written by Mas Oyama. His brand of karate is well known to be the very hard style (rock solid type). And when you turn the pages to the women self defense section what do you get? I clearly see Nikajo, Irimi zuki/Shomenate, Kokyunage etc. I did not see any striking technique that karate is so well known for in that section. Nor did I see it telling its female audience to get down and start newaza or shimewaza. Now, what do these tell you. These are potential real situation for real potential victim. Large burly man tries to rape a diminutive woman in a lift. Tell her to start doing newaza as some art are famous for to defend herself... I don't think so.

It may be me, I totally agree grappling has its place in UFC, K-1 or Pride; in real encounter where you are severely disadvantaged... try aikido or any of her tactics.

Boon.

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:09 AM   #81
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Boon...interesting what was shown in the book wrt women's self defense. Thanks for sharing.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:37 AM   #82
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Chris,

Keep cool, bro. Believe me, I understand where you're coming from. And your voice, just like Rob's, is important to the discussion and advancement of our pooled understanding.

I did a similar tour of duty, with timed served as an uchideshi, in the Northern California Aikido scene. There is some great Aikido in that area, and I think enough to get a solid grasp on what Aikido is, even at an intermediate level.

All of these martial convictions we're relaying to one another are based on our experiences. Rob's experiences lay in a very deep study on a focused field. Your exposure is different. As much as you (or I) would like to be able to express the martial truth of our experiences, it's almost impossible to through this medium.

There have been several points in my training where I reached a place of confidence in my abilities, only to have my eyes opened at how easily I could be dispatched in another range. But I never would have known unless I got on the mat and tested it out.

I know what it's like to be taken down by a Division I wrestler. I know what it's like to be thrown by Mike Swain, and choked by Renzo Gracie. You and I both know the intensity level of a tournament match or MMA fight vs. sparring with teammates. You can talk and discuss and relay anecdote after anecdote, but you've got to feel that adrenaline dump for yourself to understand how enlightening it can be.

And that should be enough. "Those that understand, understand perfectly." Words of wisdom from Kenji Tomiki. Until those that are curious actually test out kaiten-nage vs. a double leg or escaping the hold downs of a Judoka, they'll never know, and you'll never be able to tell them. All we can do is offer encouragement for more experimentation and perhaps some video to show the results.

Forget about Aikido challenges, I'd be happy with some good footage of high level aikido against moderate to full resistance.
Royler Gracie recommends taping training sessions, and I've also found it invaluable for objectively showing how you're evolving, year after year.



Boon,

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is ideally suited for female self defense in that range. It is very likely for a female with around a year's training to pull off a simple submission (i.e. bent armlock, cross body armlock, even a triangle) against an attacker within her guard. This is more likely to finish the fight and allow her time to escape than a wrist lock, throw, or vital strike, IMHO. I've tapped to women before while sparring. The strength of their hips and legs is tremendous, and that's well utilized in the ground game.


Roy Dean

Last edited by Roy Dean : 05-05-2005 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:52 AM   #83
takusan
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Exclamation Re: Aikido challenges today

Chris - NO
Don't give up.
Challenges come in all forms.
You sound like an honest, sincere, friendly person. Someone that I think would enrich my life (and many others) should we have been friends.
That there is healthy debate, shouldn't lessen any relationship, unless its too personal. It does seem that things are getting a bit bogged down. Maybe following one of the lessons we learn in self defense is appropriate.
Walk away.
Teach that all the time. Save your energy for a better battle.
Even if you think that you could - just maybe, - win.
Some people will never submit, no matter how persuasive your reasoning is. Therefore its ultimately - futile.


Even if this thread has developed away from the original, its still an interesting topic.
Otherwise why would there be so much traffic?

To all those that relegate this topic to the

'oh' its been done to death' file

Remember, for some, this is their FIRST time round, and new to aikido. Its educational for them.
If you don't like it, don't follow the thread.

And yes, it may well be necessary for you to spend many years doing, apparently, the same dumb arse things. Bit like life really - isn't it?

Wecome to my world
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:57 AM   #84
maikerus
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
David Hood wrote:
To all those that relegate this topic to the

'oh' its been done to death' file

Remember, for some, this is their FIRST time round, and new to aikido. Its educational for them.
If you don't like it, don't follow the thread.
David,

Good point on the "done to death idea" and for those of us who have gone around and around with it over and over again...

We should probably think of it as a technique...where we train again and again and again...each time learning something new and gettting that touch better.

cheers,

--Michael

Hiriki no yosei 3 - The kihon that makes your head ache instead of your legs
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:21 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Roy, David good points.
I've exsplained things as well as I can from my veiw point, if you wish to see it, you can, if not that's up to you too....
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Old 05-05-2005, 04:49 AM   #86
takusan
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Its a funny old world isn't it!

Thing is, this challenge thing, whether it be from an out side source, or one from within our own ranks - it make you take stock of where you're at and makes you draw a line in the sand.

All good as far as I'm concerned.

Chris, what I say next I don't wont it to sound arrogant, just take it for what it is - a well intensioned comment.
This is the same as I tell / mention to people within my sphere.

Its not that we don't see where you are coming from. Nor do we necessarily want to ignore what you have to say. Its that sometimes we have BEEN where you are. Perhaps, its that we believe we have moved on. Or that we have just found an alternative that satisfies our current needs.
Point is, we are ALL on a path. Aikido is not the only nor even the best path. It is however the path that some of us wish to follow, come the good and the not so good.
We make it what it is.
My reality is that aikido can and does give me everything that I currently need.
Aikido too, is able to cater to my future needs, as I have seen so much that I have yet to accomplish.

Sadly, some of my 28+ years, seem to have been the same year, over and over again. Ground Hog Day-ish.
Can't change that.
But my current level (of understanding) is still a long way from the likes that I have seen, ala Hendricks sensei, Tissier sensei, etc etc.
Hell, there are even people that I teach, that I would like to emulate aspects of.
I am a flawed human.
My task is to become better.
Not the best.
Simply better than I am now.
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Old 05-05-2005, 06:30 AM   #87
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Umm, guys, my main challenge was try to figure aikido out instead of dismissing it.

To that end, I put forth these ideas for consideration:
1) can your do your techniques without directly pushing, pulling, or lifting in the cooperative areana? (You know, the people who know how to do that, know that perfectly.... This "know perfectly" thing is a bit multifaceted, don't you think?)
2) can you consider that if you haven't even gotten there yet then you are probably not yet qualified to authoriatitively dismiss open-handed aikido technique?
3) can you consider using statistics about "high percentage" without any real statistical data is invalid?
4) if we accept that impossible-to-collect statistical data without a source just to be sport, can you consider how to appropriately apply (suspect) statistics to the average situation (if that is what you are making claims about)?

Hey don't let me confuse anyone with facts. (Now look at what I have been unfairly accused of, and how nice I have been about it.)

Excuse me, gotta run, umm... my grandmother is on fire...
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Old 05-05-2005, 12:43 PM   #88
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Re: Aikido challenges today

David,
No offense, but I don't think you have been where I have. I don't think many Aikidoka have actually put themselves in the positions that I have, to gain the knowledge that comes from those experiences.

Rob,
Keep on truck'en man, keep on truck'en.

-Chris
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:42 PM   #89
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote:
Now let me put forth my perspective. Aikido was designed from combat purpose to allow soldiers to handle multiple opponents and to negate the effect of size/brute strength in her utilization. It was not designed to be a mano-o-mano type of slug fest as many people would think (Not that practical in those UFC type situation). That type of situation would favour IMO, strength and physical prowess.

Now, let's address a group of practitioner whom this thread has mostly ignored: Women. Yes, womenfolk has every right to self defense against crime. What some earlier post had discussed was in a very narrow context of grappling to the ground etc. Again a very mano-o-mano type of situation. If you are a woman or teaches woman class you will quickly realize that many of those grappling type MA is not suitable. A hit and run type of tactic (e.g. aikido type techs) are more useful. Again, my caveat not all aikido techs are suitable. One very quickly realize that as one progress in the art/teaches the art to woman.


I have a book Vital Karate written by Mas Oyama. His brand of karate is well known to be the very hard style (rock solid type). And when you turn the pages to the women self defense section what do you get? I clearly see Nikajo, Irimi zuki/Shomenate, Kokyunage etc. I did not see any striking technique that karate is so well known for in that section. Nor did I see it telling its female audience to get down and start newaza or shimewaza. Now, what do these tell you. These are potential real situation for real potential victim. Large burly man tries to rape a diminutive woman in a lift. Tell her to start doing newaza as some art are famous for to defend herself... I don't think so.

Boon.

I have to disagree with you very strongly.

First - how could a martial art be more successful against multiple partners if it can't handle one in any situation? I'm not talking about aikido or anything but that statement when made about any art is weird and illogical at best.

Second... in women's self defence hit and run is what is done TO the women as well. Of course for women it's okay to use hit and run tactics when she feels threatened... but my guess is a lot of SD should address what to do when already on ground or standing up and grabbed.

The last thing we need is to teach women standing wristlocks on nonresistant men making them believe they can actually apply them. I have never ever seen ANY woman in TMA that could actually resist a bigger determined opponent. Because they never try what's it really like. And there's a pretty good chance a broken finger or a wrist does not stop a rapist.

And obvously you have not much grappling experience because then you would know that the easiest to overcome strength and size is on the ground (comparing to striking distance and clinch).
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Old 05-05-2005, 02:46 PM   #90
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Re: Aikido challenges today

And another thing... as we are drifting off the subject - we all have heard of single challenges to old aikido masters as well. And these werent' mortal kombats but in quite ordinary brawl setting not too different from todays vale tudo.

Why none of these today? Why so many answers that "oh well aikido is not exacty for that, it's for weapons and "real" situations and multiple attackers and..." I'd call it running away from the question
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:26 PM   #91
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I agree that BJJ is perfect for women who would like to avoid rape. Also, I have every intention of making that kind of training available to my son (as I'm sure he'll be in a school yard scuffle or two when he gets older). Although, I worry that it may have some other weird side effects. Do they do a lot head strikes? That might explain a lot about this thread.

Jorgen, I think that Jason Delucia spoke well about your question on a different thread on aikiweb.

Hmm, that got me thinking... Have any other people with experience in both MMA and aikido (like Jason Delucia or Roy Dean or some other folks on some google thread mentioned a few posts back) found that they were able to get any of their open-handed aikido techniques to work in the MMA arena?

If not, that would be a bit more interesting to hear what their struggles have been. If so, well, that would pretty interesting too.

Rob
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Old 05-05-2005, 03:38 PM   #92
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Re: Aikido challenges today

"First - how could a martial art be more successful against multiple partners if it can't handle one in any situation? I'm not talking about aikido or anything but that statement when made about any art is weird and illogical at best."

Well Said!

"And obviously you have not much grappling experience because then you would know that the easiest to overcome strength and size is on the ground (comparing to striking distance and clinch)."

Also well Said!


"And another thing... as we are drifting off the subject - we all have heard of single challenges to old aikido masters as well. And these werent' mortal kombats but in quite ordinary brawl setting not too different from todays vale tudo."

I have heard some story's about old masters being challenged, I don't know what to believe because I haven't' seen those match's. I have however seen "Randa vous with adventure" (sp?), where an untrained camera man seems to give Koichi Tohei a very hard time!

"Why none of these today? Why so many answers that "oh well aikido is not exactly for that, it's for weapons and "real" situations and multiple attackers and..." I'd call it running away from the question"

I think Aikido is a weapons system. I took the challenge of the dog brothers with my Aikido (although it wasn't a personal challenge) and it worked. I think Aikido was never meant to be an empty handed system, thats why you don't see Aikidoka winning UFC's, or Pride. It's not good for fighting unarmed. Much like a Carpenter doesn't build stuff out of metal. It's not that he cant learn, or that his wood working skills are inferior, just that he's not familiar with the methods of working metal.

-Chris Hein
P.s. great posts!
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Old 05-05-2005, 04:27 PM   #93
takusan
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Re: Aikido challenges today

To Chris,
Sorry if you took offense at my assumption.
However, I stand by the intent of the issue.
I may not have your experience, directly, but simply, the issues that you argue are the same as I and no doubt others, have done as well during our aikido career.
Only in that light then, do I reiterate, it is likely, that the limitations that are apparent to you, (and others), were similar to those that I once had.
Those limitations have since been exorcised from my training concerns.
BUT, I have other/different concerns regarding aikido's 'suitability'.
Or should I say, I have yet to extract from aikido, my answers.
Maybe I never will.
Maybe aikido doesn't have those answers (for me).

Really, why should aikido have all the answers?

It seems that we approach a point where it merely becomes a pissing contest.
In any other endeavor, we would see this for what it is, and stop.
With Aikido however, we seem to get overly protective.

Excuse my rudeness here, but in my dojo, this might well be the point where I would offer this challenge, -

"Cut the crap guys, if you like what you are doing - to hell with what others think. Just get on with it."

Dave H
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Old 05-05-2005, 05:08 PM   #94
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I wasn't following this thread from the beginning, but I'm not sure that anyone questioned aikido's effectiveness. I think Chris said (correct me if I'm wrong) that it was a system that was designed to be used while the parties involved were wearing or using weapons. I don't think he said that you cannot use it empty handed, but rather that it is not suited for that type of situation. One shouldn't use a butter knife to screw down a screw, but it's done all the time. Sometimes it works, but screwdrivers were built for the job. I also believe Chris said that he has tried to use aikido techniques in MMA situations, and said they were not often successful. Maybe he could elaborate. Another sticking point seems to be the time someone has put into training. I don't think anyone in their right mind would disagree that regarding a particular individual with the proper mind set that he will be better at what he is doing the longer he has been doing it. I don't think that was the question either.

Xu said, "Aikido was designed from combat purpose to allow soldiers to handle multiple opponents...", and there was some replies that if it wasn't designed for one how could it handle many. Think about this, on the battlefield soldiers have weapons, be it rifles today or swords in days gone by. These weapons kill in an instant compared with bare hands where it is a battle of attrition. You can easily dispatch someone with a sword and move to the next. It's lightning fast and there aren't situations where you claw back into the fight like with bare hands. In this environment, having a fluid mind that is able to let go of things quickly is one of the biggest assets. Just like jiyuwaza or randori from aikido, not like randori from judo.

I personally think this is very interesting, and hope the thread can continue along these lines without people getting to frustrated or defensive, because it's just not that serious.

Oh Rob,

What do you mean when you say without directly pushing, pulling, or lifting? Can you clarify, maybe with an example.

Michael
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Old 05-05-2005, 06:40 PM   #95
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Re: Aikido challenges today

"Really, why should aikido have all the answers?"
I couldn't agree more!

Nice analogy with the butter knife Michael!

"I also believe Chris said that he has tried to use aikido techniques in MMA situations, and said they were not often successful. Maybe he could elaborate"

I think one of the main problems with Aikido as an unarmed system is the set ups. By set ups I mean the positions from which you practice the techniques. For example in unarmed combat, wrist grabbing is not very common. Many of Aikidos techniques are baised on its set ups. Shihonage is a difficult technique to get in real unarmed combat. It involves you having to grab one of your attackers hands and spin underneath it (forgive me for paraphrasing here, we all know what shihonage is.) it's uncommon in unarmed combat to have someones hand an be set up with this opportunity. However if you are struggling over a weapon it sets up easily. I've made Irimi Nage, Rokyo, and Kokyu Nage work several times, and done kotegaeshi once. Also with trained fighters people seldom hurl themselves at you with reckless abandon, I will admit that this is not like a street fight with an untrained person, it is common for novices to just run at you, which the Syllabus of aikido sets up nicely. I seldomly get in street fights anymore (prolly thanx to Aikido also).

-Chris Hein

Last edited by ChrisHein : 05-05-2005 at 06:47 PM.
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Old 05-05-2005, 07:26 PM   #96
takusan
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Get ready for this Chris, I'm going to confirm your every suspicion about aikido.

At a party, I was asked to help get a particular person off a bed. He's drunk and stoned.
His friend goes in first. Friend gets his nose broken.
Me, - thought oh shit here we go, so apply kote gaeshi.
Nothing.
He just stood there.
Mmm, I thought. That was interesting.
Next technique. Quick.
Grabbed his hair and dragged him down, falls onto bed. I lay on top of him.
Read the riot act to him. (Wagging my finger at him).
Calmed him down.
Drove him home. Basically looked after him.

Point - the kote gaeshi didn't work - for a whole raft of reasons.
No balance breaking - still in his center - wrong distance PLUS he could feel absolutely no pain.

Conclusion. Aikido sucks. No.
Conclusion. MY aikido sucks. Yup.

Eventual outcome. Can tell you what, my kote gaeshi works now - you can bet on it.
Took time. But it was tested, and was found wanting.
Trained some more until the "Got it" stage was achieved.

SO, if I had of stopped training just after my failure, I would conclude that aikido wasn't a very effective empty hand system.
As luck would have it, I stayed with it.

Perspective - aikido doesn't have the answers - within each of us, is the answer. (or not)
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Old 05-05-2005, 08:05 PM   #97
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
..... I think one of the main problems with Aikido as an unarmed system is the set ups. By set ups I mean the positions from which you practice the techniques. For example in unarmed combat, wrist grabbing is not very common .....
Tell that to the people setting up women's self defense classes.

Quote:
.... Shihonage is a difficult technique to get in real unarmed combat. It involves you having to grab one of your attackers hands and spin underneath it (forgive me for paraphrasing here, we all know what shihonage is.) it's uncommon in unarmed combat to have someones hand an be set up with this opportunity ....
Think so? In Kali and Serak, I have seen a variety of throws done off the jab or the jab/cross, including things that are basically shiho-nage under different names. So don't tell me it can't be done!


Quote:
..... with trained fighters people seldom hurl themselves at you with reckless abandon, I will admit that this is not like a street fight with an untrained person, it is common for novices to just run at you, which the Syllabus of aikido sets up nicely ....
And which is what most people are probably thinking of when they take an art for self defense.

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.... I seldomly get in street fights anymore (prolly thanx to Aikido also).

-Chris Hein
And your problem with Aikido is .... what?
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Old 05-05-2005, 08:41 PM   #98
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AIKIDO.
let me please say it again.
I CHRISTOPHER M HEIN, DO NOT, HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AIKIDO.

It however is not a good empty handed system. Will it work empty handed, sure, so will a butter knife turn a screw. Was it designed to turn a screw, no. Do I have a problem with butter knives, no. Do I have a problem with screws, no. Butter knives were not designed to turn screws.
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Old 05-05-2005, 09:02 PM   #99
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Aikido challenges today

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AIKIDO.
let me please say it again.
I CHRISTOPHER M HEIN, DO NOT, HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AIKIDO.

It however is not a good empty handed system. Will it work empty handed, sure, so will a butter knife turn a screw. Was it designed to turn a screw, no. Do I have a problem with butter knives, no. Do I have a problem with screws, no. Butter knives were not designed to turn screws.
Well put, Chris. Aikido is a tool to harmonise with Universe, to pass from "profane" to "sacred". That's why M.Ueshiba talked about Silver Bridge Between Earth and Heaven, and not about street fighting.
I can't believe there are still in the world aikidoka who, after so many years of historical researches done by S. Pranin, continue to promote aikido as more or less ideal fighting system.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 05-05-2005, 10:06 PM   #100
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido challenges today

I don't think that even a very good shodan in aikido (because I used to be one) should be explaining much about what works and what does not work in aikido period, as opposed to what works for them so far. If that wasn't his intention, then we have no argument at all and I apologize for my confusion, and there is no need to read further...

In my experience, when I hear that a shodan can't get his empty handed techniques to work, I don't think 'what a shocker!' I think, 'yep that's shodan.'

While I have no doubt that adding 2 years of MMA would make any aikido shodan (any person period) a much better fighter - THAT DOES NOT QUALIFY SAID PERSON to make sweeping judgments about all of aikido. What I said in post 75 sumed up my thoughts about this.

When I read the following: "So I just thought, oh well the techniques must suck" - I thought 'wow there is a major case of externalization.' As in, the problem is the art, not me...

I even went so far as to say:"If we want to agree that low level aikido is most effective as a weapons based art, I'm all in." Somehow we couldn't reach a compromise there. Based on _apparent_ externalization issues and fairly condesending explanations without knowing the audience, I was lead to the possible conclusion that we couldn't reach this compromise there because there must be an ego attachment to not having low level aikido. Maybe I got it all wrong, but then I can't explain post 77.

Low level aikido directly pushes, pulls, lifts, yanks, cranks, hits them to soften ' em up, and let's not forget threatens (exactly how does one threaten with non-violence?). A good example (for Michael Varin) would be ikkyo from a cross wrist grab. If you swing your arm up in a herky jerk motion, and then plow into them hoping to push their elbow into their ear - you my friend are directly lifting and directly pushing, then you will probably follow that up with drectly cranking them over, and then directly yanking them down to the ground. On the other hand, if you twist your arm to use their grab so that their elbow starts bending, percieve their resistive energy in that side of their chest start to disipate, continue to fill that empty place with your body forward so that your two arms are lifted up more from the movement of your feet/hips in relationship to uke, and then cut the line from between uke's grabbing arm and their head such both of you continue to feel like you are expanding - then I'd say you are not doing totally low level aikido. When all of your techniques are smooth and more indirect - basically more sophistocated, you are starting to approach the line between beginner and intermediate. There is much more than just technique, but that's an okay example off the top of my head.

Rob - who keeps on trucken

Last edited by rob_liberti : 05-05-2005 at 10:17 PM.
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