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Old 10-04-2009, 06:55 PM   #26
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Philip, I do not agree with your vision of aikido at all and let me explain why.

How does Aikido work? You can see my point of view in post #19. Aikido is not intended to be used on the streets for the same reason as iaido, katori-shinto-ryu, a naginata skill, or kyudo. These arts were created to destroy and kill. They represent real budo. Therefore, you cannot mix training sessions with real "life and death" situations. You should not even try to use your aikido skills, you learned in your dojo, on the streets. In most cases your opponent will not have an ukemi skill and throwing him to the ground, as you would in dojo (letting the uke roll by himself) could be fatal (by nature of aikido techniques), and there is no excuse for it. On the streets, you must follow the law, and this is why there aikido is useless.

At some point you are also reference natural human reactions and fighting methods. I believe that it is a common mistake. In dojos we do not polish the aikido skills. We are just studying the art. For example, how many times do you repeat yokomen-uchi-shiho-nage with a partner during a month (2 or 3 classes per week)? Is it twenty? Don't you think three thousand would be more appropriate? It does make more sense. Even if you throw your partner successfully - what happens next? There are no fighting elements in your aikido training, such as a strategy and others. You practice certain katas (an attack and a response) and you know how these techniques work, but similarly, studying English, does not make you a writer. To become an Aikidoka (by a capital A) you have to focus on trained reflexes, limited number of techniques, various attacks and as many as possible repetitions. And still, you may only be able to use your skills on a war battle field.

There is a way to adopt your aikido skill to stop violence. It depends on your ability and dedication. Instead of killing your opponent physically, you can kill his soul. It means crushing his desire to use force against you after the first confrontation. If you ever practiced judo and won or lost a match by a throw scoring 'ippon' you would understand my point clearly. I observed many times a psychological effect following such a throw, and in ukes resulting in confusion, consternation, and in most cases posing a question: "What had just happened?" However, you can use this effect to intimidate your opponent as the last resort. Certainly, dodging attacks alone should be used primarily. What you should do is practice certain techniques that result in safe landing on the back, or modify other techniques to bring the same result.

My last note concerns women and children practicing aikido. Aikido will not be effective for them if in your practice you consider attacks that consist of grabbing and even touching by an uke. It will always be 'pretend aikido' based on uke's intensive cooperation. It is also not beneficial for them to use pins to cause pain, instead of using them to take advantage of body's natural reaction to avoid it. By nature, women and children are weaker and fragile.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:18 PM   #27
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Erick, your response seems to start a semantic discussion, I want to avoid. I am using the term "dodging" in a common sense. It doesn't matter if an uke is charging you like a bull, or jabbing like a perfectly stable boxer. First of all you have to dodge to avoid being a target. Secondly you need to make contact having both hands free to be able to perform an aikido technique. Ultimately, the larger the force uke uses, the more effective your performance will be.
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Old 10-04-2009, 07:45 PM   #28
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Erick, your response seems to start a semantic discussion, I want to avoid. I am using the term "dodging" in a common sense.
Yes -- and the common sense is wrong -- in this sense. So if we are meaning different things we do need to discuss the meaning of the words we are choosing to describe them. Happily, dodging and aikido are quite distinct -- so the issue does not come up...

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter if an uke is charging you like a bull, or jabbing like a perfectly stable boxer. First of all you have to dodge to avoid being a target.
As long as I remain a target he is not finding another. Take away bad monkey's toy and bad monkey gets unhappy. "Nice monkey! Want toy? Here nice monkey -- here is the shiny toy." Always try to keep the attacking monkey-brain very happy. Then, the much slower (but cleverer) man-brain may not catch up.

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Secondly you need to make contact having both hands free to be able to perform an aikido technique. Ultimately, the larger the force uke uses, the more effective your performance will be.
Hands? For aikido techniques? Who said anything about hands? Nice, but not necessary -- unless of course one is dodging, perhaps.


Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:01 PM   #29
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Wow, it is getting better. I am sorry Erick. I do not understand anything you said.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:25 PM   #30
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Wow, it is getting better. I am sorry Erick. I do not understand anything you said.
At contact, uke's motion is not stopped (conflict), it is not avoided (dodged) -- it is sheared. Different rotations interacting in tangential connection. Other things come into play, including some oscillation mechanics and resonance -- but shear is the essential nature of the interactions in question

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-04-2009, 10:47 PM   #31
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Philip, I do not agree with your vision of aikido at all and let me explain why.

How does Aikido work? You can see my point of view in post #19. Aikido is not intended to be used on the streets for the same reason as iaido, katori-shinto-ryu, a naginata skill, or kyudo. These arts were created to destroy and kill. They represent real budo. Therefore, you cannot mix training sessions with real "life and death" situations. You should not even try to use your aikido skills, you learned in your dojo, on the streets. In most cases your opponent will not have an ukemi skill and throwing him to the ground, as you would in dojo (letting the uke roll by himself) could be fatal (by nature of aikido techniques), and there is no excuse for it. On the streets, you must follow the law, and this is why there aikido is useless.

At some point you are also reference natural human reactions and fighting methods. I believe that it is a common mistake. In dojos we do not polish the aikido skills. We are just studying the art. For example, how many times do you repeat yokomen-uchi-shiho-nage with a partner during a month (2 or 3 classes per week)? Is it twenty? Don't you think three thousand would be more appropriate? It does make more sense. Even if you throw your partner successfully - what happens next? There are no fighting elements in your aikido training, such as a strategy and others. You practice certain katas (an attack and a response) and you know how these techniques work, but similarly, studying English, does not make you a writer. To become an Aikidoka (by a capital A) you have to focus on trained reflexes, limited number of techniques, various attacks and as many as possible repetitions. And still, you may only be able to use your skills on a war battle field.

There is a way to adopt your aikido skill to stop violence. It depends on your ability and dedication. Instead of killing your opponent physically, you can kill his soul. It means crushing his desire to use force against you after the first confrontation. If you ever practiced judo and won or lost a match by a throw scoring 'ippon' you would understand my point clearly. I observed many times a psychological effect following such a throw, and in ukes resulting in confusion, consternation, and in most cases posing a question: "What had just happened?" However, you can use this effect to intimidate your opponent as the last resort. Certainly, dodging attacks alone should be used primarily. What you should do is practice certain techniques that result in safe landing on the back, or modify other techniques to bring the same result.

My last note concerns women and children practicing aikido. Aikido will not be effective for them if in your practice you consider attacks that consist of grabbing and even touching by an uke. It will always be 'pretend aikido' based on uke's intensive cooperation. It is also not beneficial for them to use pins to cause pain, instead of using them to take advantage of body's natural reaction to avoid it. By nature, women and children are weaker and fragile.
Ok, I think you misread my post so I will restate it right to the point. Aikido works like this, if you are being attacked it is easy to attack back to out muscle or out force someone. Example, if someone strikes at you, you strike back harder. If someone grabs you, you pull away harder than grabbed to escape. That is a natural human reaction. It is difficult not to do that, to react without trying out muscle or force your attacker because it is a natural reaction to attempt to out muscle or out force. Another human "raw" human reaction is to hurt back with equal or greater force for the intent to injure or kill. Aikido goal is not to do this, to control your reaction when attacked in a way that controls the attacker without harming them or killing them. That is difficult to do.

Because most of us don't live in war torn countries where we might be attacked, and where weapons are accessible to most, and law prevails, we practice Aikido as an art. Where as those living in violent places practice Aikido stressing martial practice. They practice differently in their dojos still within line O'Sensei's edict of not hurting someone. Though in a situation where your attacker may be on powerful drugs or steroids, harming (not killing) them is the only choice- we have to be realistic. In terms of practice some practice Aikido as a art, just as any art, getting the same benefits. For example, an Aikido workout. In some places that luxury is not afforded to them. They must practice with a single minded focus, and intensity.

Women I did mention. But I didn't mention kids. I pity those who think women are the weaker sex. Especially, when I have come across women who would take both of us out, before we knew it. Did I mention Laila Ali? I wouldn't call her fragile or weaker, she'd drop a K.O. so hard and fast, it would be a 911 emergancy. MMA, Boxing and other male contact sports have weight divisions for a reason, there are smaller, weaker, and fragile men. Oh, and Wing Chung Kung fu was developed and successfully used by a smaller, weaker and fragile woman; it is a very effective martial art.

Look at these random clips I found, it might reset your perspective on women:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InIn5YQ4ZFI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRvgO...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rOgP9BeDt4&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyfN0...eature=related

Last edited by Buck : 10-04-2009 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:13 PM   #32
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Oh and I forgot to mention Aneta Florczyk, the world's strongest woman. Here is what she can lift.
http://www.anetaflorczyk.com/index.p...id=6&Itemid=75

I think you might get a hernia just looking at how strong this women is, I did. She is stronger than both of us, and the average guy.
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:30 PM   #33
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Here is her Youtube Channel.
http://www.youtube.com/Anetaflorczykcom
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:57 AM   #34
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Ok, I think you misread my post ....
I do not think so. You are saying: "... Aikido goal is not to do that, ..." and that is the problem. Our understanding of aikido goal is different. We also do not practice an art, I think. We practice aikido. Well, to be more precise, we study budo. As I explained (post #26), there is no excuse to use aikido on the street. I also noticed, that it is possible to use an aikido skill to stop violence with a specific approach.

BTW, you know the phrase 'the exception that proves the rule', I presume. Your argument according women is just like that, because I was talking about aikido practice in dojo.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:09 AM   #35
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I do not think so. You are saying: "... Aikido goal is not to do that, ..." and that is the problem. Our understanding of aikido goal is different. We also do not practice an art, I think. We practice aikido. Well, to be more precise, we study budo. As I explained (post #26), there is no excuse to use aikido on the street. I also noticed, that it is possible to use an aikido skill to stop violence with a specific approach.

BTW, you know the phrase 'the exception that proves the rule', I presume. Your argument according women is just like that, because I was talking about aikido practice in dojo.
I can't argue with that, nor would I want to even try. "Uncle!"
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:01 AM   #36
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
Erick, your response seems to start a semantic discussion, I want to avoid. I am using the term "dodging" in a common sense. It doesn't matter if an uke is charging you like a bull, or jabbing like a perfectly stable boxer. First of all you have to dodge to avoid being a target
Dodge \Dodge\, n. The act of evading by some skillful movement; a sudden starting aside; hence, an artful device to evade, deceive, or cheat; a cunning trick; an artifice. [Colloq.]

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Now here I thought that in order to execute technique one has to first seek, accept and welcome connection form the attacker (uke). OTOH if one dodges effectively then one no longer needs to use aikido technique. Now one might simply step to the side and allow Uke to continue his journey to the floor unaided... but ,to me, that's just getting out of the way so Uke can complete his own technique.

Quote:
. Secondly you need to make contact having both hands free to be able to perform an aikido technique.
umm ryotetori? The way I understand it the more hands Uke is grabbing you with the less hands he has to hit you with. If Tori has both hands free, most likely, so does Uke... not necessarily a desirable situation.

Quote:
Ultimately, the larger the force uke uses, the more effective your performance will be.
Absolutely.
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Old 10-05-2009, 09:41 AM   #37
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Re: How does Aikido work?

There is so much wrong with this conversation IMO I don't even know where to begin. Bottom line, if you didn't hear Erick the first time...I will repeat. Aikido is not about dodging. It is not about moving out of the way.

It gets translated that way alot but it is not correct.

Irimi is about entering, you enter and change direction/angle on your opponent. That coupled with establishing correct connection, ground path, kokyu and a few other things allows you to "do aikido".

the movement sans all the other internal stuff is about a decreasing radius spiral into the center. Judo does this in uchi komi if done correctly, Kano got it, Ueshiba got it, and Helio Gracie got it.

Alot of folks out there today doing Aikido don't get it...there is a bastardization of what is actually going on and the "visualizations" about what folks "think" is going on is wrong and will get you hurt if you engage someone for real and expect to control them with any real physical skills at all.

Even the allegory is incorrect about yielding, dodging, avoidance, and getting out of the way in verbal, mental, emotional "aikido".

Okay, I understand sometimes it is better to yield, get out of the way and regroup and fight another day. sure, however, at the level of skill that we are looking at in aikido, this is a rather low level approach that assumes that this "luxury" is afforded to us by our opponent. Yes, it is a luxury and not really a skill that requires practice. If it was, then "run fu" would be the only art we would ever need study.

I'd recommend spending some time reading what some of the "senior" and "experienced" folks in aikido write and talk about. it ain't about dodging. If it is, please show me where so I can eat my words and re-think my practice.

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Old 10-05-2009, 10:01 AM   #38
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
There is so much wrong with this conversation IMO I don't even know where to begin. Bottom line, if you didn't hear Erick the first time...I will repeat. Aikido is not about dodging. It is not about moving out of the way.
"Aikido is generally believed to represent circular movements. Contrary to such belief, however, Aikido, in its true KI form, is a fierce art piercing straight through the center of opposition". Saito Morihiro.

This is how aikido works.
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:03 AM   #39
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Dodge \Dodge\, n. The act of evading by some skillful movement; a sudden starting aside; hence, an artful device to evade, deceive, or cheat; a cunning trick; an artifice. [Colloq.]
Even in the internal paradigm; isn't the concept of dodge central and useful? Trickery. Dodge the attack ....meaning do something skillfully so you don't feel the full brunt of the force. Or ...doing something...not even allowing Tori to apply the force? (Isn't that characteristic of aiki, hence how Aikido 'works'?)

i don't know that this has not degenerated into semantics.
?
fwiw
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:32 AM   #40
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Irimi is about entering, you enter and change direction/angle on your opponent.
What Kevin said, and what Demetrio posted in the Saito quote!

I think the OP was actually on to something in that he was (the way I read the first post) discovering the usefulness of irimi for himself.

Even if you dodge succesfully once there's nothing to stop uke from following you with a second attack. Better to enter straight away.

Cherie, even tenkan or a step aside starts with a slight irimi, it may be so subtle that a beginner doesn't realize it's there but if it's not there the tenkan won't be effective.

kvaak
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Old 10-05-2009, 11:47 AM   #41
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
"Aikido is generally believed to represent circular movements. Contrary to such belief, however, Aikido, in its true KI form, is a fierce art piercing straight through the center of opposition". Saito Morihiro.

This is how aikido works.
Can I have an "Amen," brother!

Entering in proper connection CAUSES rotations and spirals (i.e. -- irimi-tenkan....) but without levering or cranking. The way some try to force the appearance of a result by those means is like planting a ten-foot two-by-four in a two-foot post-hole and calling it a tree.... it meets some trivial elements of definition, sure, but not the essential ones... and the way you get to the result IS the thing called aikido -- and those methods of attempted imitation don't even get remotely the same result -- though they may seem superficially related.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:36 PM   #42
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Firstly, we train in a very passive way - uke does something and tori reacts, executing a technique.
"We?" I certainly don't. I keep my options open. Sometimes, I do choose to attack first. It's all about doing what is appropriate in the moment. The late Saito Morihiro sensei taught something that he called "yamabiko" (which he learned from his teacher). Another thing to look into is mitsu no sen (go no sen, sen no sen, sen sen no sen).

Still, I wouldn't call what you described "passive." To me, passive is more like "uke attacks, tori gets clobbered."

Quote:
For instance, much is made of the fact that it's not actually easy to catch a good right cross, still less a good jab. However, no martial art has a devastating response to a jab or right cross (unless you're holding a sword of course) so why does anyone look for that in Aikido?
I don't generally try to 'catch' someone's punch. That seems rather like trying to hit a bullet with another bullet.

I'm also not quite sure about the whole "no martial art" thing. Nor am I interested in my response being "devastating."

Quote:
Now in Aikido we don't go to ground so where does that leave us?
Again with the "we?" :-) In my dojo, we spend about 1/4 of our weekly training specifically working on newaza. We train to move seamlessly from standing to ground work.

Quote:
It's a grappling art and if someone has their hands up ready to punch they are giving you their arm so close for it.
My aiki(bu)do is not a grappling art, but rather a cutting art.

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:43 PM   #43
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Re: How does Aikido work?

OK, Kevin - Cherie just verified the meaning of the word "dodging". Like I said before, I am not interested in discussion about semantic. Going further - I didn't say that aikido is about dodging. I clearly gave a statement than aikido without dodging doesn't make any sense. For me, aikido is not about fighting, but about killing in the blink of an eye. BTW, do you know "senior" and "experienced" folks in aikido who share my point of view?
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Old 10-05-2009, 12:54 PM   #44
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
At contact, uke's motion is not stopped (conflict), it is not avoided (dodged) -- it is sheared. Different rotations interacting in tangential connection. Other things come into play, including some oscillation mechanics and resonance -- but shear is the essential nature of the interactions in question
Good stuff and pretty much dead on with what I do.

Michael Hacker
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:07 PM   #45
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post

Cherie, even tenkan or a step aside starts with a slight irimi, it may be so subtle that a beginner doesn't realize it's there but if it's not there the tenkan won't be effective.
Yup.. even though I'm a beginner I was aware of that. Was just more interested at the moment to see if the true definition of the word to Dodge would fit. Sometimes it does sometimes not..Depends on the circumstances I'd think. When in doubt look it up right?

My experience with tenkan last night seemed to work best when there was a slight withdrawal at the moment of connection before the irimi and tenkan occurred.

There is so much about Aikido that is very different for each individual. Its a physical kinesthetic thing we are trying to put into words. Sometimes it cannot be transmitted by anything but to have actually felt it oneself physically before it can begin to be understood. It would be good to remember we are all trying to describe our experience in our own terms. We all use slightly different words to describe the same experience.

Give me 20 years or so and I'll see if I can work it out and get back to you.

Last edited by Shadowfax : 10-05-2009 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:17 PM   #46
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
At contact, uke's motion is not stopped (conflict), it is not avoided (dodged) -- it is sheared. Different rotations interacting in tangential connection. Other things come into play, including some oscillation mechanics and resonance -- but shear is the essential nature of the interactions in question
I Googled sheared and this is what I got.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:22 PM   #47
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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I Googled sheared and this is what I got.
well....

now that just about explains everything.
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Old 10-05-2009, 01:27 PM   #48
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
well....

now that just about explains everything.
I'm confused.

David

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Old 10-05-2009, 01:32 PM   #49
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Re: How does Aikido work?

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I'm confused.
Then my work here is done.

this brings us back to the word dodge I think.....

they call it humor my friend. Just go with it.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:19 PM   #50
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Re: How does Aikido work?

Reading thru some of the preceding posts, is like listening to a bunch of blind folk describing what the elephant looks like...

Dan has succinctly summed it up in one sentence. The question should be "how do I make my aikido work... with aiki?"

As for Ueshiba dodging bullets... is that aiki?

Ignatius
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