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Old 12-22-2006, 09:07 AM   #176
DH
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Back on topic...

But the way I was taught, was to "soften" your ukemi (in the early learning stages at least), so that you could "sensitize" your entire body to "force" - hence the rationale for "collaborative" training.

The other reason for doing a lot of this type of ukemi (what Dan calls "catching air"), is so that as you reach the point of physical exhaustion, supposedly it suddenly dawns on you what "being relaxed" means... what "being loose but connected" means... what "moving from center" means... etc. especially when you have to get up and attack again, or have to throw someone.

Just surmising.... not saying it is right or wrong.
I propose that type of training- to reach any sort of goal of relaxation is only.....a way....one way. Further that as -a way- "Being loose but connected" and "moving from center by getting up and having to attack again " is almost completely impossible as a method to achieve the desired goal. In fact I think its a fast way to lose site of the goal in its entirety. For me, it is the wrong direction.

Proposing that learning to take a throw and get exhausted doing so is a stellar means to learn connection should then be self-evident in the bodies and level of understanding of those who do it. Meaning…. many martial artist have proven the failure of that method.
You will learn better, faster standing alone in a room.
I'd probably say I've felt better "connectedness" in CMA players then I ever felt in many JMA'ers…none of whom train to fall down on a regular basis. Instead they train to stand up and listen.
And learning to "listen" can be taught without sacrifice of position. Many in the Aiki arts -it seems- just can't even conceive of absorbing without sacrificing because they were not shown. Just as the one fellow said his response to a punch was to throw himself. There are ways to absorb a punch and move within it and around it. And FWIW Systema teaches that.
As I said before watching anyone "choose" to end up on the ground as any kind of response to a hit or throw attempt is quite simply foolish. The history of throwing arts is to have folks learn to take ukemi so the student can practice throwing and also learn to take a throw. Beyond that the rest of your entire career should be about learning to listen and how N-O-T to be thrown.
Were you even to try to attain Ueshiba's goal of non violence -you do so by learning to train your body to be coonected and leave no openings. Not by commiting suicide.
Its only a view. There are means and methods to learning how to hold your structure and then how to support it in motion so contacting it is disadvantageous to an attacker. Most guys I've met in the Martial arts think they're all the same. Others know there are superior methods to doing so.

Happy holidays
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2006 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:13 AM   #177
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

The question was and is
How to teach and train relaxation'. Hence the name of the thread. Hearing and learning how other teachers and students tackle this subject, regardless of the art, is of interest to me, hence the question.


I do not believe it is taught but learned. It is a part of the process of development in budo or any of the arts. It takes time to learn and there is a process one goes through. Some folks would have you believe there are shortcuts. They would have you believe you could go to them and learn what has been denied you for twenty years. Some even say because the senior people in Aikido never knew it themselves so how could they teach it. Sure you can be taught tricks that give you a semblance of real training but they are still tricks. If you are of a cretin talent a teacher can teach you to fake a masterpiece but that does not mean you can create one on your own. The true process of budo is to help you find your own creative skills and it takes time in Aikido and other budo to do that regardless of the naysayers'. The process is Shu Ha Ri roughly speaking to keep to break and to leave. It is a process of development and I for one do not believe there are shortcuts. There are some that would have you come to the head of line. They themselves never seen the need to study over an extended and prolonged period of time with and identifiable teacher and because they possessed certain skills they got some of the more abstract concepts first and fast. I maintain there are no shortcuts to understanding the overall budo process and because of that they lack the deeper understanding and skills we can only gain over time. Budo is a lot like knightly chivalry. Martial art is but a part of the overall process. Bushi and Knights had to not only know but understand all the processes of courtliness from dancing to poetry - from artifice to artfulness. The thing we must learn is that they are all part of the same thing. One aspect influences all the others. That is the process of Shu Ha Ri. Frankly not everyone can learn to relax under stress. Not everyone is cut out for all the aspects of budo. That is OK after all some Samurai were bean counters and worker bees. Not all were made of the warrior stuff. Not all wanted to be. True relaxation in a budo since is a product of total training not a result of one component of the overall process.

Dennis

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Old 12-22-2006, 09:29 AM   #178
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
I do not believe it is taught but learned. It is a part of the process of development in budo or any of the arts. It takes time to learn and there is a process one goes through. Some folks would have you believe there are shortcuts.
Hi Dennis:

Well, Koichi Tohei was a 10th dan in Hombu Dojo and his approach is to have people "relax completely" and to practice a lot of "tricks", as you call them. Would your opinion be that he didn't know what he was talking about and that he should have put in 20 years the hard way? Perhaps his teachings are actually meant to be helpful and not some political ploy? It's an interesting thought, is it not?

I've had a lot of thoughts about Tohei's approaches in the last few weeks. It has been helpful. The essence of the "relax completely" that is taught in Ki-Society is, any way you want to cut it, his favored approach to developing ki/kokyu power. It is through relaxed movement. My personal opinion is that there can be a clearer way to do it, while still being relaxed, but that is opinion.

The interesting path this discussion could lead to is the difference between the "relax completely" approach of Tohei (and Ueshiba, according to Tohei's writings) and the Sanchin approach of someone like Ushiro Sensei.

But to try to trivialize the subject of ki/kokyu skills as "tricks" only would, I think, miss the point. No one says that ki/kokyu skills are the terminus of high-level skills in Aikido (or other arts), but then again no one can claim high-level skills in Aikido (or other Asian arts) without a mastery of ki/kokyu skills. "Shortcuts"? Yes.... Tohei starts out by teaching ki/kokyu skills "shortcuts" at the very beginning before the external habits become fixed.

But it's a good debate, isn't it?


Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:33 AM   #179
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
Would it be presumptive of me to presume or even assume that it is the reason for the predominant focus on ukemi in most mainstream aikido? .... the way I was taught, was to "soften" your ukemi (in the early learning stages at least), so that you could "sensitize" your entire body to "force" - hence the rationale for "collaborative" training.

The other reason for doing a lot of this type of ukemi (what Dan calls "catching air"), is so that as you reach the point of physical exhaustion, supposedly it suddenly dawns on you what "being relaxed" means... what "being loose but connected" means... what "moving from center" means... etc. especially when you have to get up and attack again, or have to throw someone.
I have considered opinions about the predominance of sword principles versus jujitsu principles in the fundamentals of aikido. Without belaboring them let me give an example of training that illustrates a useful connection and training suggestion for this topic.

On the sword side, many iai schools have a shugyo practice of one thousand cuts. At the end of this you can barely lift the sword using the muscles of your forearms, and there is virtually no way to lift your shoulders, if you wanted to. The only way to move the sword in this condition is with your center and it becomes innately more fluid and "soft." It is also more powerful with the muscular interference damped down.

There are practical reasons for the shugyo in the ryu-ha. Training for this level of muscular exhaustion mimics the conditions of the most critical stage of a day-long battle, where a man is still fighting after many hours and has cut down dozens of men, and meets someone who is fresh from a reserve. Muscle to muscle is no contest. But that is not the contest. Moving the sword without any muscular interference becomes a different affair -- and in that mode one begins to understand the Doka about treating "the cuts and thrusts of the enemy as merely seigan."

Following my own aikido teachers on both coasts, I occasionally have students do large numbers (far short of a thousand) of happo undo practice with bokken before we ever begin the tai jutsu, intending precisely to degrade the muscular capacity of the upper body before we begin actual "training."

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:33 AM   #180
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Before anyone gets bent out of shape let me say I am thinking more about my failures as a teacher than anyone on this forum. I have a few x students that went to the head of the line and are nationally known now. I have their sempai still in the dojo and they are much superior in skill and understanding to these guys. When in the dojo these guys couldn't hold their own with their seniors and now they are teaching international seminars.

Dennis

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 12-22-2006 at 09:38 AM.

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Old 12-22-2006, 09:37 AM   #181
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Hi Dennis:

Well, Koichi Tohei was a 10th dan in Hombu Dojo and his approach is to have people "relax completely" and to practice a lot of "tricks", as you call them. Would your opinion be that he didn't know what he was talking about and that he should have put in 20 years the hard way? Perhaps his teachings are actually meant to be helpful and not some political ploy? It's an interesting thought, is it not?


Mike Sigman

Hello Mike, well there was and is some serious differences in the approach to teaching between Tohei and some members of Hombu dojo. There is a reason I am with Hombu Dojo. Can I let it go at that?

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Old 12-22-2006, 09:41 AM   #182
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Wow, I totally dissagreee Dennis

If you think it takes twenty years to learn body skills and being connected and relaxing then I am at a loss.

Shortcuts?.......That isn't accurate or fair either and is a tacit insult.
But faster? Specific? Yes?
So far I have met and know about fifteen guys in the CMA and JMA including now, men who have trained with you as well as many other shihan level guys in Aikido who dissagree. There are ways to isolate out and teach body skills as specific methods.

Now, of course many others know this stuff. Its just that so very very few will separate it out from the twenty-year-man route and explain it.
I am convinced some never learned how to isolate it from their arts shtick, others know things particially....many not at all.

And "Tricks?".................I've no problem with taking that insult as well.
But how about acknowledging years of sweat and hard work.and training alone in trial and sweat, then years of failure in trial in free fighting...of other people beside yourself?
So far...no one....not one... has come back here after feeling Mike Rob or me and greed with anything you guys had to say.
How'd that happen?

In closing, again I'd remind those here that you are doubting, insulting, or questioning and ever-growing and widening section populace of your very own students.
To quote Ellis "that dog will no longer hunt."
It's over.
I think we can all stand to be a little more open minded.
Happy holidays
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2006 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:52 AM   #183
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Somewhat on topic, but from a student's (mine) perspective:

My teacher has been having me do the following sequence every day as part of my training, although its certainly not the entirety of it:

1) 1 hour of zhan zhuang (a.k.a post standing) in the deepest stance I can stand. Feet slightly turned in, leg meat torquing out. Spine stretched at both ends and as straight as possible. Position of the arms varies - sometimes arms parallel with palms down - sometimes palms up with forearms touching (very very very painful - hurts just thinking about it).

2) 1 hour of laying in corpse pose on a relatively hard surface (thin carpet), also with stretched spine. No moving allowed, not for anything. You just lay there until the blood pools uncomfortably, and you melt into the floor.

3) 1 hour divided over 3 swinging exercises. First one using two-legged stance, twisting weight from one leg onto the other, and allowing that to translate into up through the torso (but not twisting it) and the arms along a horizontal axis. Second variant switching from something not unlike a hanmi, but with weight only on back leg, to its mirror, over and over, by turning/folding at the kua region (not twisting the torso), but again allowing that to translate up into the arms. Third variant like the second, but moving the arms in a pendulum like up and down motion, translating the opening/closing of the kua into the swinging of the arms. The third one seems especially helpful with learning how to make the arms work with gravity and get any residual tension out.

If you don't know the meaning of relaxation before doing this, you will know it after.
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:55 AM   #184
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Following my own aikido teachers on both coasts, I occasionally have students do large numbers (far short of a thousand) of happo undo practice with bokken before we ever begin the tai jutsu, intending precisely to degrade the muscular capacity of the upper body before we begin actual "training."
I also meant to add that the performing the cuts seems, in addition to eliminating a large part of the muscular inputs, to help "beat " the overall structure into something more like the right shape. At least from my observations.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:57 AM   #185
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

....and making someone cut one thousand times in the wrong way just to prove there is another, better way, instead of just showing the guy the right way in the first place and the why of it-is yet one more example, a short snap shot, of what is so wrong in many teaching methods. And why some smart teachers offer ..shortcuts and tricks
I guess I just call it good teaching

Thank goodness there are Koryu teachers who don't buy into that indentured servitude and actually teach in a cogent rational method

Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2006 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 09:59 AM   #186
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Argh..... Dennis you posted and clarified while I was writing.

Never mind
Dan
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:13 AM   #187
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Lee Salzman wrote:
2) 1 hour of laying in corpse pose on a relatively hard surface (thin carpet), also with stretched spine. No moving allowed, not for anything. You just lay there until the blood pools uncomfortably, and you melt into the floor.
Lee,

Is this anything like the "iron bridge" (if that description makes sense)? Your description sounds similar to something I've been practicing lately.

And more on topic... I've been playing more with doing standard hitori waza and "ki exercises," more-than-correct. That is, I've added tension to force a particular exercise past the norm of what is expected. For instance, if practicing funakogi, the shoulders should stay down and not move forward, I'll 'force' them down and bring them back. Along with keeping a 'severe' posture and 'locking' things in place, my range of movement becomes incredibly stunted. I'll do this for a while and then relax all of these parts, without 'locking' anything, but still have the idea there in the movement. Sort of like using the whole idea of using tension to find relaxation. I know it's not a new idea, but it's opening some doors for me.

thanks,
Adam
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:15 AM   #188
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
....and making someone cut one thousand times in the wrong way just to prove there is another, better way, ...
Shugyo of this nature has nothing to do with proof. It is not an intellectual exercise, (as much as I enjoy those).

It is a means to correct technical error at a root level by temporarily eliminating one cause of it -- muscular interference. In that respect there is no possible shortcut. You just have to wear the troublesome things out so they are not able to cause trouble for a while. Then you get to feel something else working for you that all the muscular input tends to drown out.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:23 AM   #189
Mike Sigman
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Hello Mike, well there was and is some serious differences in the approach to teaching between Tohei and some members of Hombu dojo. There is a reason I am with Hombu Dojo. Can I let it go at that?
How about Abe Sensei? He also teaches, albeit less directly, the importance of the ki/kokyu skills. There are apparently a number of others who teach these things, in varying ways, that did not make it to the headlines in the earlier days before Stan Pranin helped bring a lot of this information (usually ignored because it "wasn't my style").

Although I don't agree totally with anyone's approach, including Tohei's (and I'm sure the opposite is quite true... we all have our opinions, which we should all be prepared to back up with realistic demonstrations, BTW), I recognize that this common thread of skills we're talking about is far more critical in the JMA's than any of us realized before this age of information. But we've got to be smart enough to take the clue and not think that it will go away if we ignore it and pull the covers over our heads. The question is how to address it.

Best.

Mike
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:25 AM   #190
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
....and making someone cut one thousand times in the wrong way just to prove there is another, better way, instead of just showing the guy the right way in the first place and the why of it-is yet one more example, a short snap shot, of what is so wrong in many teaching methods.
Not my way of expressing it, but I agree. Instead of making someone tire out the upper body, why not just show them how to do it with the lower body and let them develop a correct connection using fresh muscle and mind?

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:26 AM   #191
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

removed

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 12-22-2006 at 10:35 AM.

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Old 12-22-2006, 10:30 AM   #192
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Dan and you posted while I was writing. can we forget this now?

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Old 12-22-2006, 10:33 AM   #193
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Adam Bauder wrote:
And more on topic... I've been playing more with doing standard hitori waza and "ki exercises," more-than-correct. That is, I've added tension to force a particular exercise past the norm of what is expected. For instance, if practicing funakogi, the shoulders should stay down and not move forward, I'll 'force' them down and bring them back. Along with keeping a 'severe' posture and 'locking' things in place, my range of movement becomes incredibly stunted. I'll do this for a while and then relax all of these parts, without 'locking' anything, but still have the idea there in the movement. Sort of like using the whole idea of using tension to find relaxation. I know it's not a new idea, but it's opening some doors for me.
Hi Adam:

It's none of my business how you practice, but it sounds like what you're doing is trying to mix 2 different approaches and I'm not sure how well it will work.

Instead of "forcing" anything why not just keep doing the very relaxed movement of the Ki Society, but add 2 things:

(1.) Push your head up lightly while letting your butt drop down, lengthening the spine. Keep the limbs lightly "extended" (but not tense) so that there is a nice surface (and sub-surface) connection from the middle torso to the fingers, feet, and head.

(2.) When you push outward in funakogi, the hands should BE the middle; the middle is solidly rooted in the ground through the rear leg. When you pull, the hands are actually your obi... your obi should do the pulling.

You can do these things while staying muscularly very relaxed.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:36 AM   #194
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Hi Dennis

Like wise........
No one I know has anything but good to say about you.
Happy holidays
and for those who celebrate it.... Merry Christmas
Dan

Last edited by DH : 12-22-2006 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:38 AM   #195
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
How about Abe Sensei? He also teaches, albeit less directly, the importance of the ki/kokyu skills. There are apparently a number of others who teach these things, in varying ways, that did not make it to the headlines in the earlier days before Stan Pranin helped bring a lot of this information (usually ignored because it "wasn't my style").


Best.

Mike

Mike were did I say it was not important? I simply said it was part of a process. I believe Abe and Tohei senseis teach the whole process. I believe you read into it something that was not there. I never denied the importance of it.

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Old 12-22-2006, 10:44 AM   #196
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
In closing, again I'd remind those here that you are doubting, insulting, or questioning and ever-growing and widening section populace of your very own students.
Well, let's not anyone get insulted or claim insult too quickly. This is a lively debate, no doubt, and it's about a very unique subject in the history of western martial arts. There's going to be some friction... a bunch of martial artists get together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise. And there will be the usual jackanapes in the peanut gallery who haven't earned the right to get familiar and make personal remarks, but that's not the case with any of the experienced crowd like Dennis, George, Ellis, and so on. When it comes to debating the issues, there shouldn't be any insults given and there shouldn't be any taken... as long as the personality aspects are not injected.

Best.

Mike
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:47 AM   #197
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Good point

Dan
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Old 12-22-2006, 10:51 AM   #198
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Mike you as an engineer have probably been in situations similar to mine. I have to hire an intern or a part time worker. They have to come up with some answers for me. I give them a formula to use. I tell them where they can find the coefficients to go into the formula and I can show them how to work the formula. They get the right answerer but have no true understanding of what they did. The same is true for some aspects of budo. Without the deeper understanding of what is happening they will not know the significance of the answerer and it is doubtful they will be able to create new formulas to work out as yet undefined problems. Some folks seem tom offer short cuts and the danger is the people involved will believe they have all the knowledge they need to go out into the world.

Dennis

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Old 12-22-2006, 11:03 AM   #199
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote:
Mike you as an engineer have probably been in situations similar to mine. I have to hire an intern or a part time worker. They have to come up with some answers for me. I give them a formula to use. I tell them where they can find the coefficients to go into the formula and I can show them how to work the formula. They get the right answerer but have no true understanding of what they did. The same is true for some aspects of budo. Without the deeper understanding of what is happening they will not know the significance of the answerer and it is doubtful they will be able to create new formulas to work out as yet undefined problems. Some folks seem tom offer short cuts and the danger is the people involved will believe they have all the knowledge they need to go out into the world.
Well, I understand what you're saying, Dennis, but I don't think the analogy is apt. Showing someone quite directly how to put on their gi and hakama and how to fold them is quicker and better than letting them figure it out over 20 years, tying the wrong knots, putting on the pants backward, etc. Showing someone how to use ki and kokyu skills and *then* letting them learn Aikido is quicker and better, I think, than letting them try and learn many wrong skills, often burning in those skills so that they can never learn the right ones.

Many times at workshops I've given, the beginning students learn far more and far better than some of the "teachers" with 30 years of experience. It's sad. The teachers and many of the senior students have been doing external movement so long that they can now never learn to move with the jin/kokyu skills. I.e., there are pro's and con's to your "practice a long time and it will come".

My position (and I think many people agree with me in this) is that a person should learn to move correctly first, since these are unique skills, and then perfect the art. Tohei's approach is similar, BTW, as are a few other top instructors. In Chinese martial arts of the real (not trendy or touristy) variety require that someone spend a year or two just learning to move correctly before they start on a "form", etc.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 12-22-2006, 11:06 AM   #200
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Re: How to teach and train relaxation

I think this shortcut idea is not completely accurate. I have been training for over 10 years (a drop in the bucket compared to some, but more than not at all), and one thing my instructor has said repeatedly (when healthy, when sick, when injured, when hurt) is to "know your body".

I can think of very few things that would enhance the knowledge of my body more than the types of exercises that Mike, Dan, Rob and Gernot describe. And so far, my very limited experience tells me it's the sweat equity that you put into it that determines what you get out of it.

Short cut??? I don't think so...just another part of the path.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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