Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-23-2001, 09:26 PM   #1
Vera Cordwood
Location: South
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8
Offline
Do You Believe In Ki?

DO YOU BELIEVE IN KI?

I am curious about Ki. I am a Christian and I am not sure I can rectify Ki with my beliefs. What do you think about Ki?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 09:40 PM   #2
Nick
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
I've put a lot of thought into this... though not in a mood to do a ton of research, I can give you one example...

somewhere in the gospels (don't ask me which one), there's a story of a woman who was considered "unclean" by the higher-up religious folk of that day. She snuck through the crowd, and managed to touch the end of Jesus' robe. At that point, the author notes that "energy went into the woman and she was made clean", or something like that. As far as I can see, that's the best example of ki I can see.

There's basically an example of ki in almost every culture...

ki (japanese)
chi (chinese)
prana (sanskrit)
pneuma (greek)
bioenergy (english)
"The Force" (Star Wars)

I've had my own experiences that have shown the compatibility of my faith (Christian) with martial arts, one of which is that my father is a sandan in Shito-ryu karate. What makes that relevant is that he's also an ordained minister. I've had other experiences that have helped me, but I need not go into those here.

If nothing else, ask your pastor/priest/whatever it is they're called. If practicing aikido violates your beliefs, then don't practice it, and I wish you luck on whatever path life takes you.

Nick
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 09:53 PM   #3
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
At my last dojo we had a shodan who also played ice hockey, and had had some hard falls in that. One night, while he was already stiff from the ice, I threw him in irmi nage. He got up wide eyed and proclaimed he'd never felt that before, I'd caused Ki to flow down his arm with the throw. It was with great reluctance I informed him it was probably an already irritated nerve in his neck being pinched with the fall and that he should rest a while. I guess Ki is in the mind of the beholder.
Seriously, I do believe and have these suggestions for your problem: can you see it not as some mystical pseudo-religious power, but perhaps a phenomena that exists, but you just don't know a lot about right now (maybe like quantum physics or car mechanics, or something that is a bit of a mystery to you and others). Nothing that is not ultimately from God, just as is quantum physics and perhaps car mechanics. There is nothing about a belief in God or Jesus that would contradict a belief in Ki as I understand it---but I don't know your beliefs, or how you see Ki. Read some books--I like 'Ki in Daily Life' by Koichi Tohei Sensei, and 'Ki, a Road That Anyone Can Walk' by William Reed Sensei. Or if you don't think it will start fireworks you're not up to facing right now, talk it over with a senior student, your sensei, or your minister.
Good luck on your journey.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 10:04 PM   #4
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
My understanding is that neither the Japanese or Chinese view Ki/Chi in a religious sense. It is in fact a description of the physical just as in the west we used to talk about the various humors of the body. It is only relatively recently that the role of lungs, heart and circulation were understood by the medics, not to mention the source of disease.

Now Tomiki talks about the various powers. We here of the power of movement, breath power, etc, and the more mystical Ki. In the latter case it seems that the use of mystical refers to lack of a physical understanding as opposed to religious - remembering the level of education of this man.

At this stage of my training Ki does not play that great a role (at least at the level of particualar concern). I do not however see it in particularily religious term and as Nick pointed out it is just a word describing very similar phenomenon across cultures.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 10:13 PM   #5
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,053
Offline
Hey, I'm Japanese. Do I count?

At least amongst us "common" Japanese folks, the term and concept of "ki" is basically something along the lines of "consciousness" or "being." We hardly ever use the term in Japanese just by itself like some people do in English -- it's, more or less, just a part of our language.

For people who would like to get a feel for how we use the term, I've compiled a short list of "ki phrases" here:

http://www.aikiweb.com/language/ki_phrases.html

To answer the original question of whether or not I "believe" in ki, I think it's a useful concept just like the concepts of consiousness, awareness, and being. Is it anything supernatural? Nope -- I don't think so...

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 10:14 PM   #6
Nick
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
also... the Japanese word, "Ki" is used for many things... check the language part of this website... everything from Aiki to kikaki (an automobile's carburetour)... much like our word "soul"... can be used religiously, but can also be used to describe certain kinds of food, and it's up to the person to decide...

Nick
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 10:20 PM   #7
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Hey, I'm Japanese. Do I count?


-- Jun
Nope. Sorry. Unless you are speaking only in English or wearing ... oh, nevermind
thanks for the list!
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2001, 11:19 PM   #8
jedd
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 14
Offline
Hi there, I do not claim to be an expert on issues relating to "Ki" or the development of it, but I think I have something to add. I view it as the synchronicity of sentient beings with the surrounding universe. In fact, I believe it can be drawn in to the realm of all religions in the sense that it speaks to the need for beings to become actively related to their surroundings (including all social relations). This is a positive relation in the sense that it would not aim to destroy. In Aikido this may be understood as timing, flow, proper technique, etc. It may, however, go beyond this and may be experienced as true unhindered technique. I know...pretty deep stuff, but hey, it's fun to think about. To answer the original question, I think Ki is advantageous and would not go against any religious doctrines. In fact, its' development may help some develop their religous or spiritual development while maintaining their core belief systems.

Keep thinkin'
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 12:09 AM   #9
Mike Collins
Location: San Jose
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 189
United_States
Offline
How much does it matter whether or not you believe in Ki?

If you believe in it and it exists, will it cease to be if you cease to believe? If you believe in it and it doesn't exist, will it cease to not exist if you cease to believe?

As to Religion, well that's kind of personal, but I don't think too many people require a belief in Ki to teach Aikido, and if the concept of Ki bothers you, speak to your concept of God, and ask that He/She/They/It use you as a conduit of their power/love to demonstrate the quality of your life as an instrument of God.

Or don't, thats okay with me too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 07:08 AM   #10
gadsmf@aol.com
Dojo: Kokoro,Tucson
Location: Tucson AZ
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 25
Offline
Lightbulb

Ki is as real as thought. Thought has no mass,
cannot be quantified but is undeniably real
and is fundamental to how we exist. So it is with ki.

DL Gadd
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 08:50 AM   #11
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 334
Offline
Re: Do You Believe In Ki?

Quote:
Originally posted by Vera Cordwood
I am a Christian and I am not sure I can rectify Ki with my beliefs.
I'm a Christian too. What you should realise its that you should not try to rectify Ki with your beliefs because they're not related. Relate Ki to your standing upright or breathing well.
The notion of Ki as some kind of Star wars type occult power we can seize is a common fantasy to a lot of us- "That guy is stronger and faster and more powerful than me, but if I could just flick the magic switch in my head I'd kick his ass with my Ki..." I think perhaps people add a mystical aura to the concept of Ki as an excuse for not training hard to develop it.

andrew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 09:33 AM   #12
Steve
Dojo: Salina Aikido Club
Location: Salina, Kansas, USA
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 33
Offline
I've come to think of ki as a convient analogy to describe the convergence of concentration, reflex, power, and all the other things that affect our performance of a given task. Ki is not a force but it's a handy way of describing what happens within us. Ki is not The Force, either, although too many young people want to believe it is. -- Steve

Steve Hoffman
+++++++++++
That's going to leave a mark.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 09:50 AM   #13
andrew
Dojo: NUI, Galway Aikido Club.
Location: Galway, Ireland.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 334
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Steve
I've come to think of ki as a convient analogy to describe the convergence of concentration, reflex, power, and all the other things that affect our performance of a given task.

That's what I wanted to say, which reminds me of a joke about two sheep, but I won't tell that one here.

andrew
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 11:07 AM   #14
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick
I've put a lot of thought into this... though not in a mood to do a ton of research, I can give you one example...

somewhere in the gospels (don't ask me which one), there's a story of a woman who was considered "unclean" by the higher-up religious folk of that day. She snuck through the crowd, and managed to touch the end of Jesus' robe. At that point, the author notes that "energy went into the woman and she was made clean", or something like that. As far as I can see, that's the best example of ki I can see.
Nick
...that verse is found in Luke 8:45 ...just in case anyone wanted to look it up!

Regards,

Last edited by Brian Vickery : 07-24-2001 at 11:43 AM.

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 11:12 AM   #15
Nick
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 563
United_States
Offline
Thanks Brian... in all seriousness, I think Aikido is better suited to Christian beliefs than any other martial art, as far as philosophy goes... but, if it's not your path, then best of luck wherever you go...

Nick
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 01:51 PM   #16
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
Offline
Talking ki

Hello,

No I dont believe in Ki. I train in Yoshinkan Aikido.

For 'most' of us Yoshinkan guys we believe if you have perfect timing, distance and balance then you have ''ki''. We treat it as an adjective rather than something that flows through you etc.

I have trained with many other styles of aikido that place too much emphasis on ki rather than good form and posture, as a result their aikido becomes fake! It doesnt work, and they can hardly ever throw anyone with any real power.

In yoshinkan we only take falls if we have been thrown properly, none of this blending with kami rubbish.

thankyou, have a field day

Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 02:19 PM   #17
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Wink Re: ki

Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Banks
Hello,

No I dont believe in Ki. I train in Yoshinkan Aikido.

Matt Banks
...Hmmm! Not the response I would expect from someone who practices Tai Chi!!!! ...very strange!!!

[ Listed in Matt's profile: Aikido, BaGuaZhang, XingYi, TaiJiQuan, Japanese, Mandarin, etc. ]

...BUT, everybody is entitled to their opinion!

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:14 PM   #18
Ted Mangi
Dojo: Hwang's school of Martial Arts
Location: East Coast, USA
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 1
Offline
Circle RE: Jun's "Ki" phrases

A note from an English teacher's perspective RE: Jun's "Ki" phrases:

The phrases seem to be the equivilent of an English "Idiom". A grammarian would label the Ki phrases "idiomatic expressions." Examples in English:
-big- headed (self-important)
-knock out (render unconscious)
-get pissed (either angry or drunk, depending on your nationality)

Idioms lend themselves handily to poeticisms such as imagery and parallelism. OK that's my two cents.

Ted
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:23 PM   #19
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
Offline
that isnt my profile

im Matt Banks,

not the other numerous Matt's on this forum.

Ive never done tai chi before. Id love too though


cheers

Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:28 PM   #20
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
I think what he is refering to is the list of MA and languages you have in your profile (click on the index card)---perhaps one of them is a style of Tai Chi? Me, I don't recognise most of what you have listed there....
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:35 PM   #21
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
Offline
ahhh

Jun help i just looked at my profile,

and it says under interests tai chi ,bhanu vuu and stuff.

I never wrote this stuff, ever??..?????

I talked about poetry and stuff in my profile, how has this mix up happened.

can it be fixed

Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:35 PM   #22
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Re: that isnt my profile

Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Banks
im Matt Banks,

not the other numerous Matt's on this forum.

Ive never done tai chi before. Id love too though


cheers

Matt Banks
...Really??!! ...hit the profile icon next to your name! ...I just did it again and those are the styles listed! ... must be your evil twin/clone!

...sorry for the mix up! ...I retract my 'jab' at you!

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:40 PM   #23
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
Offline
Re: Re: that isnt my profile

Quote:
Originally posted by Brian Vickery


...Really??!! ...hit the profile icon next to your name! ...I just did it again and those are the styles listed! ... must be your evil twin/clone!

...sorry for the mix up! ...I retract my 'jab' at you!
Seriously though..Jun this is quite worrying, knowone could have accessed my computer, and I definately didnt write that profile.

Im hoping its just a mix up on the your database.

This is scary there could be some guy writing on my behalf.

jun we need to talk about this

Matt Banks

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:42 PM   #24
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
Offline
Re: ahhh

Quote:
Originally posted by Matt Banks
Jun help i just looked at my profile,

and it says under interests tai chi ,bhanu vuu and stuff.

I never wrote this stuff, ever??..?????

I talked about poetry and stuff in my profile, how has this mix up happened.

can it be fixed

Matt Banks
yeah, and long midnight walks on beaches, right?
I'd be believing you more, and not envisioning you chuckling as the rest of us hit the profile icon to double check what ours say, if you other current entry didn't involve a joke dealing with peeing...
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2001, 03:50 PM   #25
Matt Banks
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 91
Offline
im very serious

yes my other thread involved a joke, sorry about that I forget that we cant have fun in aikido.

Without trying to be rude, please but out for a moment, while I get this sorted-this could have serious implications on whether Ill post here anymore.What is written is nothing serious but it could have been. If I was lying, id tell you. I dont need to prove myself to people over the internet. I know I can change my profile, but the fact remains that the profile I wrote is NOT the one which is shown when you click the icon.

I couldnt even spell half the things written on there. Why would I care if someone thought I did Tai chi.

''Zanshin be aware hold fast your centre''
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poll: If you could be uke for yourself, would you be able to throw yourself? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 72 08-07-2013 06:16 PM
Aikido and being Christian Nick Spiritual 178 07-31-2010 07:47 PM
Stanislavsky and Ki DaveO General 11 01-20-2006 11:11 AM
Ki is Extended. tedehara Spiritual 5 11-15-2004 11:12 PM
Train In Ki And Why chadsieger Training 54 06-15-2002 11:26 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:21 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2021 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2021 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate