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Old 10-28-2005, 03:57 PM   #376
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I agree Pierre. Striking can injure and can also incapacitate/render your opponent unconcious, however I find that it is of more use to do as you say, to disrupt and off balance to regain or hold the advantage of "center", or dominance.

It is best to practice the technique, first without atemi, or slow atemi, to ensure you have proper alignment, position, timing etc, then increase speed, and add atemi.

I don't think aikido works very well with out it...but that is another thread all together!
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Old 11-02-2005, 12:41 PM   #377
Mike Haftel
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Re: Aikido as a Martial Art.

Quote:
Andy Hertz wrote:
The concept of atemi is ALWAYS a part of Aikido. I don't know what style of Aikido you have witnessed, but the fact is that atemiwaza, or critical strikes, are necessary to all techniques of Aikido.
I didn't read through the entire thread yet, so forgive me if I bring up something that has been discussed before.

If atemi is necessary to all "techniques" then it begs the question of whether or not the "techniques" are useful to begin with.

If I need to strike someone to fascillitate the application of a lock or throw, then the lock or throw, by itself, is not being done correctly or the nature of said lock or throw is inherently flawed.

IDEALLY, all "techniques" should be able to stand on their own without the help of a distraction or strike to subdue an attacker.

Atemi is just iceing on the cake. Not the plate the cake sits on.
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Old 11-02-2005, 01:42 PM   #378
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aikido is simply a methodogy for learning principles. It is not iceing, cake, or anything other than a method for learning. I think it helps to understand that and keep it i perspective.

I am of the belief that atemi, or the threat of atemi is very, very important to aikido. Without it you do not have a premise for developing the necessary relationship with uke/nage.

Ever try irimi nage on a unwilliing partner? You cannot do it, you have to move on to something else!

As a methodology aikido requires cooperation in training in order to learn the principles. Without it, you can grab nage easily, root, plant and stop him from doing anything resembling aikido methodology!

With the threat of atemi, uke is required to move in order to avoid the assault, this creates the dynamic movement necessary to follow through.

Can you "do" aikido without strikes? Certainly. Can you carry the threat of atemi without actually having to employ it, most definitely! But without it..you can assume away much of the principles that aikido is based on, and you have strategies that become quite different than aikido strategies.

Techniques can never "stand on their own". They require movement and energy in some form from the uke. Without it, there is no reason to continue to engage and we have ended the physical conflict.

If nage doesn't have to worry about your actions and he knows that you cannot use atemi, he has no reason to fear you and can attack without fear of reprisal.

It really changes the dynamic and defeats the lessons aikido is designed to teach us.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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Old 11-02-2005, 01:56 PM   #379
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Aikido is simply a methodogy for learning principles. It is not iceing, cake, or anything other than a method for learning. I think it helps to understand that and keep it i perspective.

I am of the belief that atemi, or the threat of atemi is very, very important to aikido. Without it you do not have a premise for developing the necessary relationship with uke/nage.

Ever try irimi nage on a unwilliing partner? You cannot do it, you have to move on to something else!

As a methodology aikido requires cooperation in training in order to learn the principles. Without it, you can grab nage easily, root, plant and stop him from doing anything resembling aikido methodology!

With the threat of atemi, uke is required to move in order to avoid the assault, this creates the dynamic movement necessary to follow through.

Can you "do" aikido without strikes? Certainly. Can you carry the threat of atemi without actually having to employ it, most definitely! But without it..you can assume away much of the principles that aikido is based on, and you have strategies that become quite different than aikido strategies.

Techniques can never "stand on their own". They require movement and energy in some form from the uke. Without it, there is no reason to continue to engage and we have ended the physical conflict.

If nage doesn't have to worry about your actions and he knows that you cannot use atemi, he has no reason to fear you and can attack without fear of reprisal.

It really changes the dynamic and defeats the lessons aikido is designed to teach us.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.
You have misinterpreted what I was saying.

Let me see if I can make it more clear.

IF you have to strike someone to facillitate or apply an effective lock, hold, throw, or "technique" then that lock, hold throw, or "technique" is either inherently flawed or you are not applying it correctly.

That is what I meant by "stand on their own." The use of a technique to fascilliate another technique shouldn't be needed if the first technique works.

Take a look at this article to see, PARTLY, what I mean:

Part 1 http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/...icles/SBG2.jpg
Part 2
http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/...icles/SBG3.jpg
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:11 PM   #380
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote:
IF you have to strike someone to facillitate or apply an effective lock, hold, throw, or "technique" then that lock, hold throw, or "technique" is either inherently flawed or you are not applying it correctly.
O'Sensei supposedly said that "Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido," according to various people who trained with him, including Saito Sensei. Given that, it seems unlikely that we should now say that aikido techniques should always work without it or we're doing them wrong.
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:25 PM   #381
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I just responded to another one of your post, so I think I understand your position a little better now Mike. It is hard to express in words these concepts. Sorry I misunderstood.

I read the article and completely understand your position. Unfortunately, I probably can't get out in words here all the thoughts I have on this as I am struggling with trying to condense them into concise sentences. Sorry.

I am a grappler as well (study MMA and BJJ). I reallly began to understand aikido and the importance of atemi to the relationship of uke/nage once I studied BJJ. It is a very, very complex relationship!

First you have to establish the premise, assumptions, and rules we are applying to the fight. I think mostly the discussion between us would boil down to semantics.

There is a conflict and use of force continium that comes into play. I believe the SBG article assumes a certain spot on this continium within the grappler's or judoka's paradigm and Yes, I would support their position from a grappler's standpoint.

My point is that they are also assuming that atemi is present and can be used in the article. Is it necessarily to use it? No. Can it actually "hurt" your position to use it? YES. Must the possibility exisit for use in order to form the Uke/nage relationship honestly? YES.

I think the article is pointing out that atemi can be harmful not only from a "sport" point of view by messing up your "game strategy", but it may also force you down the conflict/use of force continium in the wrong direction and cause escalation insteady of de-escalation of violence.

So, I agree. We study aikido as a methodology to show us that we have the strength and the ability/opportunity to use atemi, but that we can also posess the skill and compassion to restrain from using it.

Here are a couple of appropriate quotes from O'Sensei in the "Art of Peace" translated by John Stevens I like.

"The Art of Peace does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe...."

"To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control agression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace."

There is one other quote I could not find, but it is something about the ultimate victory is resolving conflict before it starts by presenting such a strong presence that your oppponent sees the futility in his attack.

I think this is the true meaning of the concept of atemi. You don't hide it, you are not ashamed of it, you simply have the skill and the compassion to withhold it.
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Old 11-02-2005, 02:28 PM   #382
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Of course aikido works in a fight, but only if you practice in the correct manner. My sensei used to do do Tomiki, but gave up because he was the only one in the state, he then switched to Aikikai style, but still practises with...vim. He can be a vicious type at timesm, but I believe the way he teachers is the most practical, in self defence terms at least. He frequently asks us to try and strike him during a technique, or will gently strike us during a technique, to show us how to defend against someone who does not simply stand still and allow a whirling person in a big skirt manipulate their joints and nerve centres.

I hereby conclude that, if you are taught in a practical way, then you should have no trouble in a conflict, against anywhom.
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Old 11-02-2005, 03:40 PM   #383
Mike Haftel
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Wendy Rowe wrote:
O'Sensei supposedly said that "Atemi accounts for 99% of aikido," according to various people who trained with him, including Saito Sensei. Given that, it seems unlikely that we should now say that aikido techniques should always work without it or we're doing them wrong.
He also said that "the secret to aikido can be found in a single technique."

Which statement from O-Sensei should we take to heart?

I'm not saying atemi shouldn't be used. Quite the contrary. I'm just saying that grappling shouldn't be dependant on the use of atemi.

Last edited by Mike Haftel : 11-02-2005 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 11-02-2005, 03:57 PM   #384
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I just responded to another one of your post, so I think I understand your position a little better now Mike. It is hard to express in words these concepts. Sorry I misunderstood.

I read the article and completely understand your position. Unfortunately, I probably can't get out in words here all the thoughts I have on this as I am struggling with trying to condense them into concise sentences. Sorry.

I am a grappler as well (study MMA and BJJ). I reallly began to understand aikido and the importance of atemi to the relationship of uke/nage once I studied BJJ. It is a very, very complex relationship!

First you have to establish the premise, assumptions, and rules we are applying to the fight. I think mostly the discussion between us would boil down to semantics.

There is a conflict and use of force continium that comes into play. I believe the SBG article assumes a certain spot on this continium within the grappler's or judoka's paradigm and Yes, I would support their position from a grappler's standpoint.

My point is that they are also assuming that atemi is present and can be used in the article. Is it necessarily to use it? No. Can it actually "hurt" your position to use it? YES. Must the possibility exisit for use in order to form the Uke/nage relationship honestly? YES.

I think the article is pointing out that atemi can be harmful not only from a "sport" point of view by messing up your "game strategy", but it may also force you down the conflict/use of force continium in the wrong direction and cause escalation insteady of de-escalation of violence.

So, I agree. We study aikido as a methodology to show us that we have the strength and the ability/opportunity to use atemi, but that we can also posess the skill and compassion to restrain from using it.

Here are a couple of appropriate quotes from O'Sensei in the "Art of Peace" translated by John Stevens I like.

"The Art of Peace does not rely on weapons or brute force to succeed; instead we put ourselves in tune with the universe...."

"To injure an opponent is to injure yourself. To control agression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace."

There is one other quote I could not find, but it is something about the ultimate victory is resolving conflict before it starts by presenting such a strong presence that your oppponent sees the futility in his attack.

I think this is the true meaning of the concept of atemi. You don't hide it, you are not ashamed of it, you simply have the skill and the compassion to withhold it.
I know what you mean about not being able to put things into words sometimes.

Also, keep in mind that "grapple," in both how I use it and how it was used in that article I referenced do not necessarily mean BJJ or ground fighting, although it could. When someone applies ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, kotegaiesh, etc... those are grappling as well. And my point is found, mostly, in the 3rd example the article was disucssing.

I actually have a copy of The Art of Peace sitting in front of me right now, I plan on reading it within the next few days or so.
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:16 AM   #385
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I pray that we do not have to use aikido ever, but on the situations where we do have to use it, it has worked for me and many others all the time, we have all heard storys about how ushiba and gozo have taken on many times
hell i have heard many and many of storys of my sensei taking on other black belt judo/karate people, and coming up on top.
aikido works, now im not saying it is the best martial art out there, or anything like that that would be arrogant,
but not only from the stories i have heard of it kicking other major martial artists butt's,

but i have used it sadly in a few occasions being cornered in a club, and so forth, i didnt damage the person at all (maybe his pride) but i protected the girls i was with and my self using aikido, aikido is more then a martial art, its a way of life
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Old 11-03-2005, 04:46 AM   #386
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Adrian Stuart wrote:
... i have heard many and many of storys of my sensei taking on other black belt judo/karate people, and coming up on top...
Just curious: were the other black belts friends of peers of your sensei and did they want to test themselves and their arts against him and his, or did he seek them out to do the same test, or were those cases of real fights where he happens to know that his opponents were black belts? I'm not trying to start a philosophical debate, I just like learning context. Thanks.
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Old 11-03-2005, 09:11 AM   #387
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=463

According to Yoshio Kuroiwa, Aikido does not work in a fight.

"All things have two aspects, yin and yang. We must recognize that practice represents an expression of yin emphasizing the uke (the person taking ukemi). Thus, practice is yin and reality (actual fighting and matches) is yang. In a real situation, we need practice plus something more."

"Fights in olden times were fought at one's own pace and are never possible or necessary at present. However, if you absolutely had to fight, not in a match, I think you would fight in the old way. In such a case, unless you had actually experienced yang practice, your efforts spent on yin practice would be wasted. This is because yin practice is for developing harmony, not for actual fighting. "

I think it's very clear that Yoshio Kuroiwa said Aikido is yin practice (nage and uke), randori is yin yang practice (nage yan, uke yin), while actual match/fighting is yang yang.

I just don't understand why some Aikidoda get defensive when someone points out the truth for them.

Aikido is just a trainging tool just like Tai Chin push hand trainging help you in a fight, but it alone can't win any fight against a Yan martial artist.
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Old 11-03-2005, 11:56 AM   #388
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Every martial art has the stories of proponents who were unbeatable, especially with other martial artists. Some people who do aikido do not have self-defence in mind, and I believe it is true that for many of these practioners their aikido would not work in a fight. This is true of all martial arts. Really much of what is said is arm chair philosophy. However, I was attacked by someone with a knife when I was younger and I am certain that if it wasn't for aikido I would not be here today. Not because of amazing techniques, but because I could move my body effectively and instantaneously - that is what we are learning in aikido. The techniques are there as a method of learning aikido, not the other way around. I would say to any individual who does not have faith in their martial art to either train in another martial art, accept the experience of others or go out 'in the field' and try it out. To a large extent a martial art is more about the training method - thus my cheesy signature.

Last edited by ian : 11-03-2005 at 12:00 PM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-03-2005, 11:59 AM   #389
ian
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

P.S. Roosevelt - I agree with alot of what you are saying, but I purposely include striking in aikido training because I do not believe the yin/yang aspect can be understood without it. Aikido CANNOT be passive - it has to form a connection as soon as possible and finish the conflict very directly.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-03-2005, 01:17 PM   #390
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ian Dodkins wrote:
P.S. Roosevelt - I agree with alot of what you are saying, but I purposely include striking in aikido training because I do not believe the yin/yang aspect can be understood without it. Aikido CANNOT be passive - it has to form a connection as soon as possible and finish the conflict very directly.
Yin != Passive

Have you seen the symbol of Yin/Yan? There is Yang in Yin, and Yin in Yang. I don't want to elaborate here because I'll be talking above my level of understanding.

But I'm very sure Yin doesn't mean passive. The iriminage is main part of Aikido. It can't be passive.

I'm annoyed by the reactions of some Aikidoda here when someone newbie sincerely ask questions about if Aikido works in real fight. The standard response is like "you're too new to Aikido to ask the question", "you're a troll", "Aikido works, you suck", "Look at victories of O'sensei over this martial expert, that sumo expert", "some police train Aikido, it must work", "define real fight". It reminds me the Clinton's response of "define sex". It's so ridicules.

I'm sure running help you in a real fight, because you can run faster away from your opponents. But we all know what the original question is. Why don't we just give it a straight answer?

I'm too new to Aikido to answer the question myself. I hope some experience Aikidoda gave a straight answer instead of questioning the guy who asks a simple question.

If there is a bar fight now, I walk away or call police. After 10 years Aikido class and become a shodan, what should I do? I think i'd better walk away. What if I take 10 years Muay Thai class and become a Muay Thai black belt?
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Old 11-03-2005, 02:18 PM   #391
Mike Haftel
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

What we do in the dojo is not martial arts. They are drills that have a practical application...the key is being able to find them, know them, understand them, and properly apply them as needed.
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Old 11-03-2005, 05:03 PM   #392
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Roosevelt,

Welcome to aikido and the complex world that it is. It has taken me years and years to understand it, and I still don't think I get it right in my head all the time! I look back at some of my post prior to aikiweb when the old list serve was running about 10 years ago and I am embarrassed by some of the things I wrote back then. I had a very simplistic view of the world and martial arts and fighitng.

I was more concerned with learning to become an effective fighter that could defeat anyone with as little power and force as possible. I had expectations of dodging knifes, bullets, and easily disposing 300lb giants with ease!

I still do!

I focused on the external applications and movements of the art. Why? because when those are your goals, that is all that really matters right!!! Being able to dispatch your foe efficiently. There is no real need for all this wishy washy internal stuff!

Really my frustration came to a head about 2 years ago after studying MA for 12 years seriously and being an infantrymen in the U.S. Army.

I have spent a great deal of time studying the dynamics and psychology of fighting, the escalation of conflict, and situational issues that we might find ourselves in as military, police, and as civilians.

It was mind blowing once I really looked at it honestly. To tell you the truth, I had my ass handed to me about a year and a half ago by a very good MMA guy who essentially shattered any esteem and opinions I had about all my years of training.

I reached the conclusion that fighting is very, very complex. It is all about perceptions, prejudices, and expectations. It is about the "rules" that are applied either implicity, or explicitly when you engage in conflict. There is a spectrum and a continium upon which all this works. It is a complicated "dance", one which requires someone to not only be technically and tactically skilled, but equally, if not greater mentally and emotionally prepared. It requires an ethical base, and the ability to judge, percieve, and act at a split second.

When I distilled down things to a simply level and started trying to "relearn" aikido through working with soldiers in my unit and soldiers that had been involved in life and death battles, really watching, listening, and learning from them and trying to validate aikido against what I would call people that are brutally honest (raw is a better word since honest would imply they had no prejudices in their approach to conflict resolution), I found that it didn't work! I could not reach out to them.

I began to think aikido was not valid as a martial art, that it had nothing to offer but an methodology to study esoteric concepts, and maybe a few techniques that you could situationally apply. Having a few techniques you can apply certainly doesn't make for a complete MA though!!!

So, what is important about aikido? How did it fit in.

The answer to me was simply Budo. Budo is about personal refinement. How can we be strong and effective warriors if we are not in the proper mental, physical, and emotional state?

I had to learn to beat my guys at their own game by learning MMA and BJJ in order to gain their respect and to be able to demonstrate to them that I was competent and fairly well rounded as a martial artist. I began about a year ago understanding the purpose of aikido. Once I "let go" of the techniques and "Style" of aikido and started focusing on the princples of budo, I began to see room in our training for aikido. I am begining to put things back together now, and I finally see how it works!

I will be the first to tell you that I am not that proficient as a aikidoka. My koshinage stinks, and my ikkyo is on par with about a 3rd Kyu. Also I am only a 2nd kyu in rank for reasons of my in ability to study consistently with my organization, that that is okay...because I finally at least "get it" I feel!

So you see, for many of us, answering a question about the effectiveness of aikido in a fight is a loaded question that really there are as many answers and opinions about as their are aikidoka, as all of us see aikido and what is offer slightly different.

One thing the founder was clear on I really believe is it is about Budo. He never professed to make you the most lethal figher in the world, but that aikido offers you a path to be a better person for what it is worth.

I'd recommend reading a few books if you haven't read them.

"In search of the Warrior Spirit" by Richard Strozzi-Heckler. He is a very good aikidoka/sensei that offers much knowledge in the area of application of aikido in "real life".

Also, "the Book of Five Rings" It really puts into perspective the things that are important about being a good warrior, it is more than about fighitng.

In the end of this long post...I offer you only what I have experienced for myself. It is all about balance and "the middle ground". As you point out, you cannot have the "yin" without the "yang".
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Old 11-03-2005, 06:08 PM   #393
Taylor Franklin
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I don't know if this has been stated yet, but why let a 'forum troll' rouse you guys? I understand the love of Aikido here on the site, but why try to convince a 'non-believer' to belive? It doesn't make any sense... Even if you get him to confide that Aikido is better, and to try it out, he might still have the lingering distaste and doubt on the art which could lead to him being hurt, or others. If somebody is looking for a fighting applicational art, I would not try to convince them that Aikido is one that should be applied. The techniques, as many of us know, are very dire to the body. Even so the lingering doubt could cause a choke up which could lead to injuries.

On the subject I first think a topic like this should be left alone. A debate/arguement is akin to a fight... so why let pricipals of Aikido differ from physical confrontations to verbal ones? Wade around conflict and continue.

As for the phsyical aspect of Aikido not working; It may not be the most practical, but if you're a practioner of Aikido on many levels you will have done all that's possible to avoid a phsyical fight in the first place. If the fight is unavoidable, then its beyond help. If somebody wants to beat you up, they probably will. Most other arts do show steadfastness and strength with usually lead people to be boastful braggards, which can ultimately lead to an unavoidable come-upins. I however do not suspect to see that much in Aikido and the teachings. How can you brag about a defensive art? Even so how would you get in a fight about it?

Punch me!
*defends or gets punched*

*defends*
Punch me again...
No!

*does not defend*
Punch me again
Why?

See my point?
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Old 11-04-2005, 04:10 AM   #394
Pierre Rood
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yes, the conclusion has to be:

Aikido does indeed not work because it's practioners don't believe it does themselves.

Quote:
If somebody wants to beat you up, they probably will
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Old 11-04-2005, 04:11 AM   #395
Pierre Rood
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

This is soooooo different from O Sensei...
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Old 11-04-2005, 05:27 AM   #396
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Mike Haftel wrote:
IF you have to strike someone to facillitate or apply an effective lock, hold, throw, or "technique" then that lock, hold throw, or "technique" is either inherently flawed or you are not applying it correctly.

That is what I meant by "stand on their own." The use of a technique to fascilliate another technique shouldn't be needed if the first technique works.

Take a look at this article to see, PARTLY, what I mean:

Part 1 http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/...icles/SBG2.jpg
Part 2
http://www.empoweredmartialarts.com/...icles/SBG3.jpg
Hi Mike,

Saw this a little late, but that article was spot on imo. Totally agreed.

Reminds me of a thread I started here a while back - http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5313.

As Ian D indicates, it comes down to the training method. If you don't train to apply your Aikido in situations of serious interpersonal aggression outside the dojo and have tests/mechanisms to verify the integrity of your responses, then how can one hope to understand, much less comment on the concept? It's like a virgin lecturing abut sex from reading Playboy as someone else on this site said some time ago.

To me the fundamental concepts are very simple, overanalyis combined with a lack of understanding of the environment being dealt with makes things complex imho. The reason why a lot of other methods are seen as better suited for self defence is because they strip away the delusions and deal witht the reality of physical interpersonal conflict in a structured, scientific manner. With the absence of serious, targeted tests that strip away the BS in our perception and technique delusion will enter.

However the delusion is one of that exists in our own individual selves, not one of "Aikido" per se. "Aikido" means nothing by itself, it's a manifestation of the individual who practices it and his/her goals. Ultimately, we are the ones responsible for how we train and what we get out of training. It is not the responsibility of the method entirely, if at all. Aikido is merely a method.

Gambatte.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 11-04-2005, 07:38 AM   #397
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
If there is a bar fight now, I walk away or call police. After 10 years Aikido class and become a shodan, what should I do? I think i'd better walk away. What if I take 10 years Muay Thai class and become a Muay Thai black belt?
Walk away and call the police. That is the only reasonable responce, unless someone physically attacks you in such a way that defending yourself is unavoidable. There was a Muay Thai teacher (very good too) that saw someone hit his car and try to drive off. He ran down the street after them, and they shot him dead. What was his best option? Walk away and call the police. Duh.

Best,
Ron (many people have answered your question, you just don't like the answers)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:36 AM   #398
roosvelt
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Roosevelt,

I was more concerned with learning to become an effective fighter that could defeat anyone with as little power and force as possible. I had expectations of dodging knifes, bullets, and easily disposing 300lb giants with ease!

I still do!
I don't know much about Aikido myself. But I believe the Ki is real. I don't' think you can defeat anyone with little power and force. I think you need a lot of power and force, but not muscle power in the conventional way, but the mind/internal/ki power. I think Aikido kata is one of the ways to build this kind of power/force.

If we concentrate too much on little power and force, it'll lead us to timing, leverage, and technique. Sure they're important part of any system, but I think they'll show themselves if one builds up ones internal power.

I'm just talking over my head here. But that's my goal in Aikido.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:

It was mind blowing once I really looked at it honestly. To tell you the truth, I had my ass handed to me about a year and a half ago by a very good MMA guy who essentially shattered any esteem and opinions I had about all my years of training.
What's that good MMA guy background? What enable him to shatter your system?

Thanks.
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Old 11-04-2005, 09:54 AM   #399
Ulises Garcia
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Hello everybody,

So, with all the questioning of the effectiveness of Aikido that's been going on, I got real curious (this is an honest question, as I am truly ignorant); how does Daito-Ryu stand in the eyes of the Aikido detractors? I think that, all in all, it's the martial artist that's being effective (his wits, how he uses the tools that his particular art provide him with, and how he manages the adrenaline dump), with the particular MA being secondary IMO. After all, no MA will make you bulletproof, much less give you 360° vision to be aware of your surroundings 24/7. So, out of curiousity, how dows Daito-Ryu stand?

-U- (Looking for greater insight)

"He who dies with the most toys...still dies."
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Old 11-04-2005, 10:22 AM   #400
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I think Daito ryu stands up well in some areas, but in others it has some issues too.

Positive:

a) The kata in the Mainline group that I am most familiar with deals with strong grabs that are followed up with full blown attacks. So it's not a wrist grab, pause, technique (neither is good aikido in my opinion), but rather, wrist grab and strike, dogi grab and strike, cross choke grab and throw for attacks. This means that the response has to be strong, use atemi, focus, advanced timing and other factors to succeed.

b) the kata often show effective means of striking, choking, throwing and dealing specifically with arts like judo.

c) The mindset is often one of "In Daito ryu you must win".

d) I believe that informal sumo type wrestling is used at least in the states to get some exposure to a more freestyle sort of application of technique.

e) I REALLY like the form of zanshin they teach (leave nothing behind). It can produce awesome budoka.

Negative:

a) come'on, it's still kata!

b) I don't think there is an emphasis on attacks outside of the standard japanese shomen, yokomen, tsuki, and grappling attacks.

In any 'art', it is often up to the individual to pursue applying the principles in more rigorous environments. Against well trained opponants.

I also think that someone who can take the principles and methods of 'organizing the body' outside of the classical framework will be an awesome fighter. But that person would have to be very well rounded, very physically fit, etc. I have trained with folks like that in Daito ryu...but I have also trained with folks like that in aikido, as well.

Best,
Ron (disclaimer: these are only my opinions from my brief exposures at open seminars. I am in no way truely competant in Daito ryu.)

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 11-04-2005 at 10:28 AM.

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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