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01-05-2009, 12:23 PM
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#1
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6
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Got pwned by boxer =-(
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.
Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.
His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
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01-05-2009, 12:27 PM
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#2
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
He boxed in the army, for an extended period of time...and you've spent 1 month doing cooperative training in a japanese martial art...and you are surprised at the outcome?
hmmmm....
Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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01-05-2009, 12:44 PM
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#3
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Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Well we all know what the outcome would be even if he spent 20 years doing Aikido. The boxer would have owned him!
Boxers are better at boxing then Aikidoka. That's because they spend their time boxing, and we don't.
Get that same buddie, and get yourself a padded club. Focus on striking his jabbing hand. Keep your distance, he will get frustrated that you have a reach advantage, and rush you, thus over extending.
If he didn't have gloves on, I'll bet he'd grab your weapon hand, to stop you from hitting him, guess what happens when he grabs your wrist...
Go at it again, and see how much more even you are.
All the things he told you are correct.
Aikido is a poor unarmed system, change the paradigm and the outcome will change.
Last edited by ChrisHein : 01-05-2009 at 12:53 PM.
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01-05-2009, 12:54 PM
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#4
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Dojo: Circulo de Aikido
Location: rio de janeiro
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 29
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Had a great laugh with you post, thanks! Aikido for a month!!!!! Hahahaha! Is this really a serious post??
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01-05-2009, 12:57 PM
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#5
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Well we all know what the outcome would be even if he spent 20 years doing Aikido. The boxer would have owned him!
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Not necessarily so, but in many, if not most cases, absolutely.
One example (if you believe the story) is Gozo Shioda taking on a boxer who had defeated one of his students. Shioda Sensei, on the other hand, seemed to have little trouble. The details give some idea of one way to handle such a situation.
Best,
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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01-05-2009, 01:19 PM
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#6
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Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
The stratagy of conflict in Budo requires thought. Why would I try to out box a boxer or submit a wrestler? You're just learning so it's good you're finding out this lesson early. The Folks here are correct about learning to play to your strengths not your opponents.Aikido requires an entirely different approach to "fighting" and if you were one of my students with no prior Martial Arts experiance I might suggest you get a "black belt" in something else first if you want to learn "how to fight". Then come to Aikido.
Just relax and don't get frustrated and you'll experiance what I mean in due time.
William Hazen
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01-05-2009, 01:41 PM
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#7
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Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,193
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
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That is very good feeling. Now you understand deeply, that O sensei didn't create aikido for self defence.
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Nagababa
ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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01-05-2009, 02:20 PM
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#8
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
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You should have. You're a rookie and he's experienced. The "never box a boxer, never wrestle a wrestler" truth that others have pointed out is something to always remember, if for no other reasons than it puts an end to the endless "Could Superman beat up Batman?" type arguments.
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
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Not absolutely true, but a lot closer to the truth than a lot of students of grappling styles would like to believe. It's a common belief among grappling stylists that you "just catch the leg" if someone kicks, or "just catch the punch" if someone punches. Someone who trains in a striking style can strike much faster, much harder and with much less telegraphing than what you're likely to experience from your partners in an aikido dojo.
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
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Again, in aikido dojos we train against a simple, obvious, straightforward attack. There are good reasons for this, but it does mean that there are certain styles of attack that you just don't get much practice against. Again, doesn't mean that aikido can't defend against these attacks, but if I were dealing with a combination striking attack, I'm sure I'd at least partly use skills I learned from karate.
By the way, there are a lot of valuable lessons to take away from your experience, but none of them is, "boxing beats aikido".
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01-05-2009, 04:01 PM
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#9
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Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.
Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.
His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
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Exactly what I've been saying since I joined(Aikiweb). I'd add, Muay-Thai is not grappling, it's strictly a stand up, kick-boxing MA. Also, grappling IS ground. Sorry, so noone gets the wrong idea, I'm not trying to correct as much as 'enlighten'.
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Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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01-05-2009, 04:14 PM
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#10
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Location: Baltimore, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 73
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Re: Got owned by boxer =-(
Hello all,
It's been a while, but there is a video somewhere on youtube (or there was) of a Russian aikidoka and a Russian Thai boxer sparring. The aikidoka was able to pull off a kotegaeshi from the boxer's jab.
They were very well matched, but the aikidoka certainly held his own. It wasn't prearranged and they were certainly going all out with each other. It looked like a good match up honestly. Can most aikidoka do that? I doubt it. But to be fair the Thai boxer if memory serves was a champion in his weight so maybe a less skilled Thai boxer wouldn't have done as well?
This weekend we were practicing Daito-ryu against jabs instead of lunges and shomenuchis and found if you do the kata correctly they work juast as well or even better if someone pulls back their hand.
Good luck, keep training and don't be to eager to show off your skills because you don't have any yet. Part of budo training is to supress the ego, this should be a good lesson in that.
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Chris Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu
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01-05-2009, 04:17 PM
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#11
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Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 601
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
You are actually totally wrong, Muay Thai includes a lot of standing clinchwork including throws from the clinch.
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote:
Exactly what I've been saying since I joined(Aikiweb). I'd add, Muay-Thai is not grappling, it's strictly a stand up, kick-boxing MA. Also, grappling IS ground. Sorry, so noone gets the wrong idea, I'm not trying to correct as much as 'enlighten'.
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01-05-2009, 04:25 PM
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#12
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Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
You are actually totally wrong, Muay Thai includes a lot of standing clinchwork including throws from the clinch.
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LOL I sparred with an MT Guy just a few months back and he did everything from the clinch or so it seemed. His technique was very Aikido like Jab Jab Kick Kick and Enter...Clinch and Dirty Box...
And those knees
Nope Aikido does not work very well in the clinch...
William Hazen
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01-05-2009, 04:28 PM
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#13
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Location: Henderson,
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 370
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote:
That is very good feeling. Now you understand deeply, that O sensei didn't create aikido for self defence.
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Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.
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Only between a single breath is Yin/Yang in harmony
Emotion is pure energy flowing feely thru the body-Dan Millman
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01-05-2009, 04:46 PM
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#14
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Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
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With a whole month under your belt, you are "helpless and defenseless" against everyone's skills. This has nothing to do with Boxing vs Aikido; it has to do with a total beginner in one art meeting a very experienced practitioner of another art. What, pray tell, did you expect? Why don't you train a while seriously before you start messing about with cross training? With just a month on the mat you don't even know enough to know what questions to ask... you can only come up with erroneous notions at this point.
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01-05-2009, 04:49 PM
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#15
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Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote:
Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.
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Does this affect your commitment to train in that "non-martial art?" Seems like it should, if that's your priority and your considered view of the situation.
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01-05-2009, 04:51 PM
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#16
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote:
Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.
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ok
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01-05-2009, 05:06 PM
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#17
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Keith Miklas wrote:
A friend of mine boxed for the army. I've been studying Aikido for about a month and so I asked him to friendly-spar for a couple of minutes to show him what I'd learned.
Basically, I got owned. I never came close to blending with his jabs. I finally had to tell him to slow his attacks down, so that I could demonstrate Ikkyo and Sankyo.
His comments:
1. It's not possible to catch/blend with his punches.
2. He's going to throw a combination, so even if I try I'm probably going to get hit (this, too, he demonstrated with a gentle right to my floating rib when I tried for a sankyo).
3. He would never over-extend himself with a "clean attack" like we use in class.
4. All this has been settled with the Gracies in Brazilian Ju Jitsu. Back in the '70's they invited people from all different schools to come down and fight it out. What "came out in the wash" was these three positions, and most effective related styles:
a. STANDING SEPARATE: boxing; kick-boxing
b. GRAPPLING: Muy-Thai; Wrestling
c. GROUND: Wrestling; Ju Jitsu
In sum, I felt helpless and defenseless against his skills.
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titter!
Back to the drawing board...... titter......
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01-05-2009, 08:29 PM
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#18
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
AIkido principles works just well in the clinch. I would argue that the clinch is within the context of aikido. In fact done properly it demonstrates the concept of ikkyo quite well. Ikkyo in principle, not in form.
In principle ikkyo is about controlling the spine accessing it from the shoulder area. Clinching right and it is about irimi as well.
Watch a good MMA guy in the ring closely. Especially when the are against the cage. They will pummel, underhook, control the shoulder to the spine, irimi and spin the opponent against the cage.
Glad you mentioned the Clinch William. IT is the first thing I'd recommend that someone learn if they are serious about fighting.
You can catch punches just fine....it may just not be with your hand!
Clinching puts you in a range that negates his ability to punch and improves your ability to effectively use aiki principles.
We have to be careful not to confuse the kata that we train with to teach princples with practical application. However just because many don't train the clinch does not mean that it cannot contain aiki principles.
Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 01-05-2009 at 08:30 PM.
Reason: grammer ( i suck at it, sorry)
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01-05-2009, 08:52 PM
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#19
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Dojo: aikido of charlotte
Location: Charlotte
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 112
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
I constantly enjoy watching the evolution of (and diversity of) opinion on this forum on this topic. "I got owned"------->you need to train a little more than a month ( I think that is pretty unanimous)--------->aikido doesn't work -----or----->aikido does work-----or------>aikido is a martial art-------or------>aikdio isn't a martial art. Seems that for every person who doesn't think it works or isn't a martial art (and why are you here if that's your opinion) there is someone who asserts it does and is. Seems to me if you take the principles (as Kevin pointed out) and train to see the martial context and you practice to the right attitude, then it will be effective. If you just want to "feel the blend" then it may not be effective. But at any rate, none of this comes after a month. May you have many years of happy training.
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01-06-2009, 01:45 AM
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#20
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Dojo: Joseikan Jui Jitsu/MMA/Aikido Rickmansworth, Herts
Location: England
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 42
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Amen Kevin,
I love working from the clinch. For a short arse like me it is a great neautralizer if you can clinch well. As for aikido from the clinch, well I regularly use kote geishi, sokumen irimi nage, shomen irimi nage, ushiro nage and various hip throws. The application may look different from what most consider "aikido" but the principals are very aiki.
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______________________________
"Its just a ride" - Bill Hicks
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01-06-2009, 02:40 AM
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#21
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Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote:
Well we all know what the outcome would be even if he spent 20 years doing Aikido. The boxer would have owned him!
Boxers are better at boxing then Aikidoka. That's because they spend their time boxing, and we don't.
Get that same buddie, and get yourself a padded club. Focus on striking his jabbing hand. Keep your distance, he will get frustrated that you have a reach advantage, and rush you, thus over extending.
If he didn't have gloves on, I'll bet he'd grab your weapon hand, to stop you from hitting him, guess what happens when he grabs your wrist...
Go at it again, and see how much more even you are.
All the things he told you are correct.
Aikido is a poor unarmed system, change the paradigm and the outcome will change.
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This is so true, so true. I guess the most pragmatic post in this thread.
Boon
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SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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01-06-2009, 03:39 AM
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#22
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 26
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Clarence Couch wrote:
Then it shouldn't be labeled a martial art.
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Hi
What does the word "martial" mean to you? It seems to me that O-sensei had a much broader (or at least different) view of the word than you do. I have read a quote by O-sensei saying "aikido is the study of the spirit". He continues "aikido provides the means to penetrate the reality of existence".
It seems O-senseis definition of a "martial" art is somewhat broader than the idea that "martial" designates an art for fighting, for war. It seems O-sensei was of the opinion that the fighting to be done is with oneself and that self-victory is the ultimate goal of the fight.
I maintain - if someone wants to practice an art that is 100% focussed on fighting, self-defense, dealing with a boxer etc. I do wonder if aikido is the right choice.
Many regards
Stefan Hultberg
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01-06-2009, 04:07 AM
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#23
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Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
AIkido principles works just well in the clinch. I would argue that the clinch is within the context of aikido. In fact done properly it demonstrates the concept of ikkyo quite well. Ikkyo in principle, not in form.
In principle ikkyo is about controlling the spine accessing it from the shoulder area. Clinching right and it is about irimi as well.
Watch a good MMA guy in the ring closely. Especially when the are against the cage. They will pummel, underhook, control the shoulder to the spine, irimi and spin the opponent against the cage.
Glad you mentioned the Clinch William. IT is the first thing I'd recommend that someone learn if they are serious about fighting.
You can catch punches just fine....it may just not be with your hand!
Clinching puts you in a range that negates his ability to punch and improves your ability to effectively use aiki principles.
We have to be careful not to confuse the kata that we train with to teach princples with practical application. However just because many don't train the clinch does not mean that it cannot contain aiki principles.
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Sometimes ya have to take a bit of damage to get what ya want eh!?.... or try to get inside the retract to get inside striking range and close 'em up!!? Its always difficult to catch fast jabs, rather let them come, avoid off centre and when the wind blows itself out to regenerate more punching power move in rapidly with oshitaoshi/ikkyo to turn 'em round or take 'em down or ushiro ate rear attack (irimi?)..... sometimes you can get kote gaishe that's my turn on it..... its difficult but with practice you can take them from below the arm with ikkyo..... and having the the ability to combinate .......its all about timing, combinating, and kuzushi really ain't it.....
Tony
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01-06-2009, 06:44 AM
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#24
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 48
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Hi Keith
your friend sounds like he's been boxing for awhile, so its no surprise with the difference in experience. As mentioned above, don't bring a punching match to a boxer.
The subtleties of Aikido can be modified to be quite destructive. eg. direct Iriminage or arm break from shihonage. At the moment, you are learning where to put your hands and where to put your feet. In the dojo we accomodate each other to learn the correct movement.
I understand that you would like to try out the techniques but for now you have to learn the basics.
don't get me wrong, I am not condoning (not sure if this word is in the right context?) sparring Aikido vs MMA or boxing etc. I always believe its the martial artist and not the martial arts thats a factor. If if you want a quick martial art for grapelling or combat, then maybe you should look for another martial art
don't have to feel helpless/defenseless with him... he's your friend right? just look at it as part of training.
hope this helps
all the best
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01-06-2009, 07:10 AM
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#25
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6
Offline
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Re: Got pwned by boxer =-(
Quote:
William Hazen wrote:
The stratagy of conflict in Budo requires thought. Why would I try to out box a boxer or submit a wrestler? You're just learning so it's good you're finding out this lesson early. The Folks here are correct about learning to play to your strengths not your opponents.Aikido requires an entirely different approach to "fighting" and if you were one of my students with no prior Martial Arts experiance I might suggest you get a "black belt" in something else first if you want to learn "how to fight". Then come to Aikido.
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This paragraph sums up my mistake well. I tried to force Aikido techniques on a jabbing boxer; and they don't work well against jabs. Aikido seems to require a committed attack to throw an opponent off balance.
I wonder if my mistake was at a conceptual level; in the "approach" as you say. Boxing is the art/sport of landing effective punches on an opponent. Aikido is not designed for sport-fighting.
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