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Old 02-18-2022, 01:30 PM   #1
maddrifter
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 3
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aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

Hello everybody, i am a brasilian ju jitsu and krav maga praticioner from Italy. Both there martials arts are deeply imparented with aikido (krav maga is recognized by the italian sports government as "israelian ju jitsu"). In fact the firts two krav maga black belts under the founder Imi Litchenfeld were already aikido and judo black belts too and most of the falls, locks and immobilization techniques are pretty similar to aikido ones, like this https://youtu.be/33QJlLaUC44 or this https://youtu.be/8l49jnk-UbY ). I am preparing for 2nd dan test with a friend aikidoka and he is extremely useful!

Now i am falling in love with aikido alltogheter and i am willing to enroll to a class and study it, but i'd like, due to my combat sport derivation (muay thai for years, now krav maga and bjj) and job (reserve police officer) to "keep it real". So.. what do you think of Tenshin Aikido? It seems pretty realistc, but i hold serious doubt regarding everything concerning Steven Seagal.. i mean, he is a true shihan, and appears to move with precision but.. come on, he also is extremely ow and seems to be a liars concerning many stories.. what do you think of the style of aikido he founded? are his students like Cody Lewallen legit? Or should i go for a classic aikikai school?

Thanks so much!
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Old 05-17-2022, 09:02 PM   #2
shizentai
Location: CA
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 69
United_States
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

You'll have to look at Lenny Sly's videos on Youtube, aka "Rogue Warriors Compound" and make up your own mind.

Personally I think Tenshin Aikido is the right direction for the practical branch of Aikido, but it's still Aikido, and its attempts to adapt a weapons system to emptyhand self-defense, will not result in practicality level comparable to BJJ or boxing.

However, I've used Aikido concepts in actual self-defense situation in a crowd, in a situation where I didn't want to seem overly combative with a boxing stance, nor could I go to the ground. Reality creates interaction mechanics that are completely different from something you encounter in sparring, and Aikido works in some situations like that.

Quote:
Fabrizio Lottici wrote: View Post
Hello everybody, i am a brasilian ju jitsu and krav maga praticioner from Italy. Both there martials arts are deeply imparented with aikido (krav maga is recognized by the italian sports government as "israelian ju jitsu"). In fact the firts two krav maga black belts under the founder Imi Litchenfeld were already aikido and judo black belts too and most of the falls, locks and immobilization techniques are pretty similar to aikido ones, like this https://youtu.be/33QJlLaUC44 or this https://youtu.be/8l49jnk-UbY ). I am preparing for 2nd dan test with a friend aikidoka and he is extremely useful!

Now i am falling in love with aikido alltogheter and i am willing to enroll to a class and study it, but i'd like, due to my combat sport derivation (muay thai for years, now krav maga and bjj) and job (reserve police officer) to "keep it real". So.. what do you think of Tenshin Aikido? It seems pretty realistc, but i hold serious doubt regarding everything concerning Steven Seagal.. i mean, he is a true shihan, and appears to move with precision but.. come on, he also is extremely ow and seems to be a liars concerning many stories.. what do you think of the style of aikido he founded? are his students like Cody Lewallen legit? Or should i go for a classic aikikai school?

Thanks so much!
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Old 05-18-2022, 11:23 AM   #3
IvLabush
Location: Kyiv
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 69
Ukraine
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

There are plenty Jujutsu styles similar to something you know already and designed for old days self-defence purposes. Why you actually aim on Aikido?

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Old 05-20-2022, 10:36 AM   #4
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 396
Serbia
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

Quote:
Fabrizio Lottici wrote: View Post
Hello everybody, i am a brasilian ju jitsu and krav maga praticioner from Italy. Both there martials arts are deeply imparented with aikido (krav maga is recognized by the italian sports government as "israelian ju jitsu"). In fact the firts two krav maga black belts under the founder Imi Litchenfeld were already aikido and judo black belts too and most of the falls, locks and immobilization techniques are pretty similar to aikido ones, like this https://youtu.be/33QJlLaUC44 or this https://youtu.be/8l49jnk-UbY ). I am preparing for 2nd dan test with a friend aikidoka and he is extremely useful!

Now i am falling in love with aikido alltogheter and i am willing to enroll to a class and study it, but i'd like, due to my combat sport derivation (muay thai for years, now krav maga and bjj) and job (reserve police officer) to "keep it real". So.. what do you think of Tenshin Aikido? It seems pretty realistc, but i hold serious doubt regarding everything concerning Steven Seagal.. i mean, he is a true shihan, and appears to move with precision but.. come on, he also is extremely ow and seems to be a liars concerning many stories.. what do you think of the style of aikido he founded? are his students like Cody Lewallen legit? Or should i go for a classic aikikai school?

Thanks so much!
It's all the same crap. The whole point would be to find a good instructor who emphasizes intensity and precise training. That's it.
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Old 05-23-2022, 05:06 PM   #5
Setok
Dojo: Ryushinkan / Rajamäki | Sasuga Daito Ryu / Helsinki
Location: Helsinki
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 25
Finland
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

Quote:
Fabrizio Lottici wrote: View Post
Hello everybody, i am a brasilian ju jitsu and krav maga praticioner from Italy. Both there martials arts are deeply imparented with aikido (krav maga is recognized by the italian sports government as "israelian ju jitsu"). In fact the firts two krav maga black belts under the founder Imi Litchenfeld were already aikido and judo black belts too and most of the falls, locks and immobilization techniques are pretty similar to aikido ones, like this https://youtu.be/33QJlLaUC44 or this https://youtu.be/8l49jnk-UbY ). I am preparing for 2nd dan test with a friend aikidoka and he is extremely useful!

Now i am falling in love with aikido alltogheter and i am willing to enroll to a class and study it, but i'd like, due to my combat sport derivation (muay thai for years, now krav maga and bjj) and job (reserve police officer) to "keep it real". So.. what do you think of Tenshin Aikido? It seems pretty realistc, but i hold serious doubt regarding everything concerning Steven Seagal.. i mean, he is a true shihan, and appears to move with precision but.. come on, he also is extremely ow and seems to be a liars concerning many stories.. what do you think of the style of aikido he founded? are his students like Cody Lewallen legit? Or should i go for a classic aikikai school?

Thanks so much!
Just to make sure there is no confusion: BJJ is not in any direct way related to aikido. It comes from judo which comes from different parent jujutsu arts than aikido (aikido is related mostly to Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, while judo's parent arts are different). Judo does have some self defence kata which stems from aikido, but I'm not sure if any of that made it into BJJ. You are right, however, that Krav Maga has connections to aikido through the ‘co-founder', and that can be seen in some of the techniques.

I agree and understand the sentiment to keep things real when practising aikido. I think you can find that in many varying lines of aikido, really depending on the teacher. Whichever way you go it's not a quick path to glory, but can be very rewarding. Just remember that if you approach aikido with the mentality of wanting to be bad ass, you may not be satisfied. Not because it doesn't work, but because that is not the attitude aikido aims to foster. Think quiet confidence rather than meathead egotism.
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Old 07-13-2022, 12:27 PM   #6
maddrifter
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 3
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

Quote:
Kristoffer Lawson wrote: View Post
Just to make sure there is no confusion: BJJ is not in any direct way related to aikido. It comes from judo which comes from different parent jujutsu arts than aikido (aikido is related mostly to Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, while judo's parent arts are different). Judo does have some self defence kata which stems from aikido, but I'm not sure if any of that made it into BJJ. You are right, however, that Krav Maga has connections to aikido through the ‘co-founder', and that can be seen in some of the techniques.

I agree and understand the sentiment to keep things real when practising aikido. I think you can find that in many varying lines of aikido, really depending on the teacher. Whichever way you go it's not a quick path to glory, but can be very rewarding. Just remember that if you approach aikido with the mentality of wanting to be bad ass, you may not be satisfied. Not because it doesn't work, but because that is not the attitude aikido aims to foster. Think quiet confidence rather than meathead egotism.
Thanks a lot for your reply mate, i didn't know of the "different parents" of aikido and judo. There are indeed self defence katas in judo, such as this one named Kodokan Goshin Jutsu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4eqsZr6JAk . I am pretty sure that everybody can see a lot of aikido in it, and Tomiki shihan had a great role in its creation. And i am pretty sure you could find tons of similarities with the brasilian ju jitsu of the origins, take a look at the founder himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsSVnmNZYX8 .
Also there are some grand judo masters who teach and practice aikido too, here you are Shintaro Higashi sensei, judo competitor at world level, division 1 wrestler AND aikido teacher too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOUlF8R67Dg . Let me know what you think!
Kind regards!
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Old 08-30-2022, 10:06 AM   #7
Setok
Dojo: Ryushinkan / Rajamäki | Sasuga Daito Ryu / Helsinki
Location: Helsinki
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 25
Finland
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

Quote:
Fabrizio Lottici wrote: View Post
Thanks a lot for your reply mate, i didn't know of the "different parents" of aikido and judo. There are indeed self defence katas in judo, such as this one named Kodokan Goshin Jutsu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4eqsZr6JAk . I am pretty sure that everybody can see a lot of aikido in it, and Tomiki shihan had a great role in its creation. And i am pretty sure you could find tons of similarities with the brasilian ju jitsu of the origins, take a look at the founder himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsSVnmNZYX8 .
Also there are some grand judo masters who teach and practice aikido too, here you are Shintaro Higashi sensei, judo competitor at world level, division 1 wrestler AND aikido teacher too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOUlF8R67Dg . Let me know what you think!
Kind regards!
Late response but yes, as mentioned, judo has some kata from aikido, but otherwise BJJ and aikido are unrelated in terms of lineage. Now I do think, from my minor exposure to it, that quality BJJ and quality judo can be very aikidolike. In other words, not muscling it but unbalancing with finesse and technique.

There have been many aikidoka who also practised judo, and I think judo and probably BJJ give a fantastic base to study aikido: you are already aware of some of the realities of combat, so can approach aikido with a solid attitude and will not be fooled by easy ukes. So all I can say is that I would love to hear what you think about aikido when you start it.

But if you are looking for martial applicability, give it time and, perhaps even more importantly, test several dojos and teachers. Many people do not train with that in mind, and that's OK for them, but you will likely want to find someone with a different mindset.
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Old 10-14-2022, 08:35 AM   #8
Walter Martindale
Location: Edmonton, AB
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 801
Canada
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Re: aikido to improve krav maga and grappling, opinion on style

Even later response. Haven't checked in for a while. I started judo in 1972, practised it for 8 years (including a trip to Japan for training) before a knee injury (and nearly breaking my neck) put me out of the sport. The literal translation of judo (I won't bother with diacritical remarks or putting in kanji) is "gentle way" but there's very little gentleness. Watch Olympic or World Championship judo competitions if you doubt this. The old literature I read said that judo was developed by Jigoro Kano in the late 1890s to give ju-jutsu (ju jitsu?) practitioners a way to practice "full speed" without necessarily killing or severely damaging their training partners. Ways to win a judo competition include throwing a person for ippon (or a couple of waza-ari), holding them down "in control" for a period of time - used to be 30 sec, but I understand it may be shorter now - applying a strangulation technique until submission or "unable to continue" or applying a locking technique to the elbow until submission or "unable to continue". Judo has rules, taking out contact with the face, striking, knee, neck, shoulder, wrist, ankle locks, and a bunch of other things that were part of the martial art of jujitsu (however you spell it) where the rules may have been "don't break your partners or you won't have anyone to train with". So judo people throw full force. People go hard at judo, knowing there are rules that are (most of the time) respected. People compete in judo at a pace and intensity that would be very dangerous to either untrained people or to trained people if some of the nastier techniques were not taken out of it and relegated to the kata demonstrations. My judo sempai used to say that you should throw your partner through the mats, or at least try to.

From my understanding of the development of aikido in the 1930s, Ueshiba did a lot of study of a number of arts (Daito Ryu, kenjutsu, and others) and developed his aikido with no competition. If people competed at aikido, I think we'd stand facing each other and say "grab my wrist" or "go ahead, try to hit me" or something like that, but at competition intensity found in judo matches, training partners would be broken and we'd have nobody to practice with. So, over the decades, various sensei have taken protection of uke at a little higher value than protection of nage from a "realistic" attack, and again, over the decades since Ueshiba's death in 1969, aikido has become softer.

However, pockets of "realistic" exist - in seminars with the late Kawahara Yukio, he'd get angry if you didn't actually try to clobber him, and he'd walk past me and tell me to throw my uke "judo style" and he'd smile and laugh when I slammed uke to the floor (when he walked away I'd apologize to uke and explain).

Hiroaki Izumi use to say things like 'if your attack isn't likely to damage the nage, nage has no reason to do aikido' (that's paraphrased, Rocky passed away in March 2013, sadly). On the occasions I got to feel what Kawahara did to uke, it was "holy crap what happened", and I've been part of demonstrations where four of us would try to take Rocky out and all four of us would end up bruised and battered on the mats - that's me, with a judo shodan, another guy with a yondan in shotokan and years of full-contact professional fighting, and a couple of other guys. We were all flattened and the only thing that ever hurt was impact (not rolling) with the ground if my ukemi wasn't up to snuff.

So, yes, it depends on the sensei and the aikido school you find. There's one here in this city that's organized by a relatively small policeman who treats aikido as a life-or-death skill and if it wasn't for this G-D-Effing arthritic hip, I'd be training there. There's another one a little farther away in this city where it's also pretty realistic at the "higher" levels. There's also one who's doors I wouldn't darken even if I could still practice because there's almost no "reality" - in exercises like katate-dori-iriminage the sensei turns his back to you before you even reach for his forearm, for example.

What's the point? Well? Jun says I haven't posted here for a few weeks (more like months). I miss aikido but every time I try to practice any I can't walk for a couple of days - I've heard of people returning to aikido after hip replacement (coming soon, I hope) but I'm not so sure.
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