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01-22-2012, 05:00 PM
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#76
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 716
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I'm with Nathan on this one I think. I always understood this statement as "don't focus on the outcome, focus on the process". This may be stating the obvious, but when doing a throw, the goal is obviously to throw. What would be the point otherwise? Is everyone out there accidentally doing throws when they don't really mean to? The thing is, the best way to throw someone is not necessarily to focus on the outcome but to do the process correctly. My sensei tells me not to get too caught up in where you want uke to go. Rather, focus on what you know you have to do. If you are doing it correctly, then uke will go in the right place. Anyway, that's my take on this.
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01-22-2012, 09:51 PM
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#77
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Location: Long Beach, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 332
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
.............The question of throwing becomes far more interesting when your movement...your movement...as in within yourself...is so connected that anything you do becomes a compelling shift -to them...............
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Folks
This is the essence of it.....this is the center of it .........when your movement is so connected within yourself that anything (everything) you do cause shifts, irresistible shifts in the other that are not explainable, that may never rise to the level of awareness. These shifts result in destabilization, imbalances.....and don't require the other to be cooperative in anyway. Isn't this a goal of Aikido? It is of mine.
Gary
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01-23-2012, 07:18 AM
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#78
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Dojo: East Sheen Aikido and Kashima No Tachi
Location: London, UK
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 289
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I try and work with the "attack", be that strike, punch, grasp etc. A focus on the desired result tends to mean things are forced. I agree that you need to maintain your own structure(s), and feel for what is happening in your body and uke's body. So sometimes for a very similar looking grasp (e.g. katatedori) a good response is shihonage, sometimes a kokyunage. Makes life more interesting when you are trying to demonstrate a particular technique of course - need good uke to make the technique appropriate to the attack!
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01-23-2012, 07:37 AM
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#79
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Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 504
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Do not worry about throwing... Just move...
Your practice partner falls when everything is done correctly...
If you worry too much about the result, you will then forget about the process and start looking for shortcuts which will be more damaging to the training process...
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01-23-2012, 08:14 AM
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#80
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,476
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote:
I agree it is about imposing your will upon another, from the standpoint that the other person wants to cause me harm and I don't want them too, so I will exert my will in a manner that is sufficient to exert my will over their will, doing whatever is necessary.
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If we define will as thoughts...then there would be no will imposed because Aikido requires no thought.
If someone is really trying to cause another harm; my interpretation of Aikido is what ever works is the response. The right or wrong may be discussed by others afterward.
Preying on people's fear by making oneself seem omnipotent could be misleading. Sometimes we are alone and it doesn't matter how much aiki we have. The best response comes from within as we pay attention to now.
No matter how many times or ways it is said there are many paths and all are valuable.
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01-23-2012, 09:20 AM
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#81
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
If someone is really trying to cause another harm; my interpretation of Aikido is what ever works is the response. The right or wrong may be discussed by others afterward.
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Lashing out hysterically at the assailant trying to gauge her eyes out because you are overcome with fear and terror and you have nothing else left? This would be valid Aikido? This would be valuable?
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01-23-2012, 09:31 AM
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#82
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Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
I have a little more time so I would like to clarify my earlier post...
My belief is that the thread concept is not complicated, nor is it specific to aikido. The idea is that if you practice [correctly] the proper movement enough times you should internalize the movement, thereby allowing you freedom not to explicitly focus on the action. "Not throwing your partner" and "Not focusing on the throw" are two different things.
I believe the problem with the concept arises when we:
1. Apply the concept of internalization before we are competent in the movement. Throwing someone wrong 100 times because you are "trying not to think about throwing your partner" is bad. To this problem, I advocate that the concept should be reserved for discussion amongst [more] senior students who already know the movement.
2. Apply the concept as a crutch for excusing failure. Your intention needs to match your action; if you want to throw someone but cannot, then your actions are inconsistent with your intent. To this problem, I advocate that you need evaluate your ideology and match your actions to your intentions (not redefine your ideology to match your incorrect action).
When I play golf, I do not "try to hit the ball." I use swing mechanics and if my swing is proper I will correctly hit the ball. When I play baseball, I do not "try to catch the ball." If I see the ball and let my body align the glove with the trajectory of the ball and close the glove when I feel the impact, I will catch the ball. If I shoot a basket, I do not "try to throw the basketball into the hoop." If I visualize the proper trajectory and align my body to throw the ball allow that trajectory I will make a basket. Judo uses the term "fitting" to describe the importance of proper positioning before attempting the throw. I like this term because I think it reminds us that there are important components to a throw necessary to the proper execution of the throw. I think in aikido we can sometimes get sloppy and rely on our "ki" to fix everything (and by "ki" I mean a partner who falls at the drop of a hat).
If I were to teach t-ball camp and explain to the kids, "Okay kids, don't try to hit the ball. Instead, try not to hit the ball." It just sounds weird and inappropriate. But, in aikido we have no problem saying "Okay, don't try to throw your partner. Instead, try not to throw your partner." In fact, after throwing out that drabble we'll strut back to kamiza and revel in our superiority.
Towards the end of his career, Michael Jordan would shoot free throws with his eyes closed. Later, Jordan admitted several reasons for the feat but he insisted the act was not that difficult after shooting a lifetime of free throws.
Ted Williams used to say that he would count the seams on the baseball as he followed the pitch. While most hitters simply trying to see the ball, Ted Williams would count the seams on the ball...
Tiger Woods would bounce a ball on the face of a club and then hit the ball to a green (he stopped once it became a parlor trick).
I use these sports illustrations because the are easy to find, fun to view and help take the "godly" atmosphere away from a simple correctional gesture our seniors give us to let us refocus our attention to where it needs to be (usually, on our poor structure or position... ).
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01-23-2012, 09:39 AM
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#83
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Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,476
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
Lashing out hysterically at the assailant trying to gauge her eyes out because you are overcome with fear and terror and you have nothing else left? This would be valid Aikido? This would be valuable?
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Why not, David? Would you be calm and perfectrly cool if someone was trying to rape or kill you?
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01-23-2012, 09:49 AM
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#84
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
If I was 6th dan with over 20 years of experiencing in Aikido and a dojo owner? Yes, I would expect to remain calm.
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01-23-2012, 10:58 AM
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#85
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Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
If I was 6th dan with over 20 years of experiencing in Aikido and a dojo owner? Yes, I would expect to remain calm.
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Have you been in this situation, then?
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01-23-2012, 11:03 AM
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#86
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote:
Have you been in this situation, then?
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I have ...four times, although once was talking someone else out of doing something very violent. And...being calm is what got me out with only a few scars. Those were life threatening affairs, and do not count fighting.
Calm..is a very powerful tool. It also can realy screw with the mind of others who have lost it...even those with murderous intentions. Being a 6th dan is no reasonable qualification I can see. It might even be a disqualification. Martial artists do not necessarily make good fighters or are good in life threatening situations. I have seen LEO and EMT's lose it at scenes, with bystanders demonstraitng more calm control. It happens.
As for Martial arts-all paths and all methods were never and will never, all be equal. Were it so, Takeda and Ueshiba would have been nobodies, that did not stand out from the budo wallpaper....and we would not be here today.
Dan
Last edited by DH : 01-23-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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01-23-2012, 11:04 AM
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#87
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
6th dan, 20 years of experiencing and all that? No.
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01-23-2012, 12:29 PM
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#88
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote:
No matter how many times or ways it is said there are many paths and all are valuable.
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Does all of them have the same value?
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01-23-2012, 12:43 PM
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#89
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
Does all of them have the same value?
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Who gets to decide? You and I are different people, and probably value different things. Society as a whole places no particular value on martial skill -- even professional soldiers are not particularly well-rewarded compared to entertainers or financiers. Who, other than the practitioner, is in a position to say that one path is more valuable than another?
Katherine
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01-23-2012, 12:58 PM
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#90
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Who, other than the practitioner, is in a position to say that one path is more valuable than another?
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The attacker
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01-23-2012, 01:16 PM
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#91
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Dojo: Dramático de Cascais
Location: Lisbon
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 29
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
I believe that Aikido should be done with your uke, not to your uke.
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I completley agree!
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01-23-2012, 01:16 PM
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#92
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
Society as a whole places no particular value on martial skill
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Sure, but martial arts/budo subculture has a different set of values, and martial skill is appreciated.
Quote:
Who, other than the practitioner, is in a position to say that one path is more valuable than another?
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I'll going to pursue "the path of theoretical physics", even if I can't tell a sqare root from a potato... who other than me would be in a position to say my "path of theoretical physics" lacks value?
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01-23-2012, 02:17 PM
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#93
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Rute Mendes wrote:
Quote:
Bryan Bateman wrote:
I believe that Aikido should be done with your uke, not to your uke.
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I completley agree!
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You are discussing one version of Modern Aikido spread by modern teachers. Many of the old guard Japanese Shihan were openly derisive of that idea; many times calling it nonsense and specifically stating that it was not aikido. It's in interview after interview. Morihei Ueshiba explicitly stated in no uncertain terms, that aiki allows you to exert your will on your opponent. And he also constantly talked about control.
You can have fun with that idea, many do. The important thing is to know the difference and make a healthy choice that you enjoy. Just be careful out there in doing too much cooperative work or when you meet people who may actually know how to exert their will on you and control your every effort, you will more than likely be unable to do anything about it.
You can always find a way to do both, many do that as well.
Dan
Last edited by DH : 01-23-2012 at 02:27 PM.
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01-23-2012, 03:14 PM
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#94
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
The attacker
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But what if someone explicitly disavows any interest in martial effectiveness? Tea ceremony is probably not particularly effective in a martial encounter, but does that make tea ceremony invalid as a Way? What about iaido or other solo forms?
Katherine
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01-23-2012, 03:16 PM
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#95
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote:
I'll going to pursue "the path of theoretical physics", even if I can't tell a sqare root from a potato... who other than me would be in a position to say my "path of theoretical physics" lacks value?
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Physics is testable against real world experiments. If your model adequately explains the experimental evidence, then it has value. That's why people still study Newtonian physics, even though it fails at quantum dimensions and/or relativistic speeds.
But how do you "test" a purely spiritual pursuit?
Katherine
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01-23-2012, 03:20 PM
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#96
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Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Morihei Ueshiba explicitly stated in no uncertain terms, that aiki allows you to exert your will on your opponent. And he also constantly talked about control.
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That's a new one on me.
Regards.G.
Last edited by akiy : 01-23-2012 at 04:39 PM.
Reason: Fixed quote tag
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01-23-2012, 04:19 PM
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#97
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Graham Christian wrote:
Quote:
Dan wrote:
Morihei Ueshiba explicitly stated in no uncertain terms, that aiki allows you to exert your will on your opponent. And he also constantly talked about control.
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That's a new one on me.
Regards.G.
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I know
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01-23-2012, 04:39 PM
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#98
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote:
But what if someone explicitly disavows any interest in martial effectiveness? Tea ceremony is probably not particularly effective in a martial encounter, but does that make tea ceremony invalid as a Way? What about iaido or other solo forms?
Katherine
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Then surely that persons interests are best served by practicing the art of tea ceremony. How obvious is that?
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01-23-2012, 04:42 PM
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#99
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Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
I know
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Best,
Chris
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01-23-2012, 04:56 PM
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#100
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"
Quote:
David Soroko wrote:
Then surely that persons interests are best served by practicing the art of tea ceremony. How obvious is that?
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Again, who are you to decide?
For my own practice, I stand firmly with those who argue that aikido is a budo, and as such it must, by definition, be martially valid.
But my own practice keeps me far too busy to pass judgment on how anyone else chooses to spend their time.
Katherine
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