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Old 01-11-2017, 02:24 AM   #1
Pepi
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Is this aikido?

If you use punches and kick in your aikido techniques is it considered as aikido? For example someone attacks you with yokomenuchi type of attack, you enter ikkyo undo, punch him in stomach and do for example sankyo. Is that aikido?
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Old 01-11-2017, 02:39 AM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is this aikido?

Yes. That is Aikido.

Striking is and always been part of Aikido.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:00 AM   #3
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Re: Is this aikido?

I guess the intention behind your strike as you receive the attack would be good to understand. Depends on whether your intention in the example you make is to harm the attacker or to 'distract' them or 'take their balance' in order to continue or transition between techniques.

Chris Sawyer
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Old 01-11-2017, 01:55 PM   #4
Alex Megann
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Re: Is this aikido?

Here is an Aikikai 8th Dan. What do you think of the first clip (the 18-second one)? Is this aikido?

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Greenwic...=page_internal

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 01-11-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 06:07 PM   #5
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Re: Is this aikido?

Good question. Personally, I would say no. Seems like an unnecessary risk of losing your center.

Chris Sawyer
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:13 PM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is this aikido?

I wouldn't call it an aikido demonstration because the person is outright attacking uke rather than using aiki to undermine uke's structure.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:14 PM   #7
dps
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Re: Is this aikido?

Are you using Aikido as a martial art for self defense, yes. Are you using Aikido for spiritual or personal development, then no.

dps
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:00 AM   #8
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Petar Jovanovic wrote: View Post
If you use punches and kick in your aikido techniques is it considered as aikido?
What about quotes of Ueshiba saying aikidō is 99 or 70% (... anyway ...a whole lot of ...) atemi?

What about Saito sensei ...

What about attacking the face of the attacker to provoke his answer so that what call shomen uchi will evolve?

@ Janet: A lot of renowned/respected (I don't know the correct word in english, but refer to persons we would probably accept as being competent role models of aikidō like Yamaguchi sensei, Endō sensei, Shioda sensei, ...) teachers come to my mind who explicetly teach a certain way of changing the roles of tori and uke at certain points of a waza.
(Attacking uke's face during the entrance against yokomen uchi and kata dori men uchi is part of our kihon waza. And using atemi (foot or hand) during waza is seen simply as advanced technique later on.)
So to me there is no verdict in aikidō of attacking uke. You feel different?

@ Chris: I think learning to keep one's structure is one of the most important points anyway. And staning on one leg while doing ikkyo sometimes is more easy than standing on one leg all alone. ;-)

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-12-2017 at 03:06 AM.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:32 AM   #9
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Are you using Aikido as a martial art for self defense, yes. Are you using Aikido for spiritual or personal development, then no.

dps
Sorry but I don't get your point. Do you mean that giving someone a bloody nose is less compatible with spiritual or personal developement than breaking his arm or sending him/her head first towards the pavement?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:48 AM   #10
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Re: Is this aikido?

Watched the clip that Alex posted again (the 18 second one in question) it doesn't even seem as though the instructor is attempting to 'blend' with his attacker but is meeting then head on and stopping. Perhaps there was more of the technique demo that we cannot see (wish it was longer than 18 seconds).

But perhaps I should not be assuming that this is an actual technique being taught to students. As we all know questions of technique effectiveness do arise during dojo training and if everyone is having fun this could simply be goofing off and showing it example of a modified technique

Chris Sawyer
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:48 PM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Are you using Aikido as a martial art for self defense, yes. Are you using Aikido for spiritual or personal development, then no.

dps
So anything done in self-defense is aikido? If I bash uke over the head with a beer bottle, because I'm teaching aikido as self-defense, it is aikido I'm demonstrating? I disagree.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:52 PM   #12
Janet Rosen
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
@ Janet: A lot of renowned/respected (I don't know the correct word in english, but refer to persons we would probably accept as being competent role models of aikidō like Yamaguchi sensei, Endō sensei, Shioda sensei, ...) teachers come to my mind who explicetly teach a certain way of changing the roles of tori and uke at certain points of a waza.
What I saw was not what I'd call changing roles within the context I have learned it.

The context in which I have learned it is uke staying relaxed enough to maintain her structure so that she can perform technique on the person who had been nage.

What I saw was nage responding to an attack by performing an aggressive entry and attack more akin to a punching/kicking art.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-12-2017, 01:25 PM   #13
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Re: Is this aikido?

Anything you do that is in the spirit of Aikido is Aikido. Drinking a beer, walking down the street, answering posts on AikiWeb.
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Old 01-12-2017, 02:27 PM   #14
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
... changing roles within the context I have learned it.
The context in which I have learned it is uke staying relaxed enough to maintain her structure so that she can perform technique on the person who had been nage.
Thank you for this explanation. I also this kind of change of the role tori and uke when countering a technique or when studying kaeshi waza.

I was referring to something different: A change of receiving an attack // attacking within the role of tori while she is staying tori - and uke stays uke - in regard to the given kata. So tori in his role as tori attacks uke using atemi with hand - or sometimes also feet.

This is very soft - even sensei's word are ("... as if attacking uke's center ...") but may give you nevertheless a glimpse of what I mean.
Usually tori's attacks are much stronger and sharper ... and attack sensitive regions.

Quote:
What I saw was nage responding to an attack by performing an aggressive entry and attack more akin to a punching/kicking art.
Yes. I'm practicing much more soft now. But with my first teacher we used to practice in a similar way. There much of punching and kicking.

I can understand if someone practices in a different way.
But I don't get, why this should not be aikidō - one way to understand it?
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:16 PM   #15
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Here is an Aikikai 8th Dan. What do you think of the first clip (the 18-second one)? Is this aikido?

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Greenwic...=page_internal

Alex
Kanestuka's Aikido is some of the best there is. If he's doing it, it's Aikido.

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Old 01-12-2017, 04:59 PM   #16
MrIggy
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Petar Jovanovic wrote: View Post
If you use punches and kick in your aikido techniques is it considered as aikido? For example someone attacks you with yokomenuchi type of attack, you enter ikkyo undo, punch him in stomach and do for example sankyo. Is that aikido?
Punch, kick, elbow, knee, shoulder, headbutt... it's all Aikido.
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Old 01-12-2017, 05:04 PM   #17
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
So anything done in self-defense is aikido? If I bash uke over the head with a beer bottle, because I'm teaching aikido as self-defense, it is aikido I'm demonstrating? I disagree.
If it's with proper technique (shomenuchi, yokomenuchi, tsuki) then yes.
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Old 01-12-2017, 08:55 PM   #18
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Re: Is this aikido?

Isn't Aikido more a "how" than a "what"?

Without deprecating jujitsu in any way - our techniques are adapted from jujitsu [which includes nasty strikes of all sorts]. It is *how* we do those techniques or more importantly how we move as nage/tori and uke that creates Aikido.

Most techniques don't "work" unless the uke and/or nage/tori respects the threat of strikes.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
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Old 01-13-2017, 02:22 AM   #19
MRoh
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Petar Jovanovic wrote: View Post
For example someone attacks you with yokomenuchi type of attack, you enter ikkyo undo, punch him in stomach and do for example sankyo. Is that aikido?
It's not keiko, because on the mat you don't hurt people.
But O Sensei showed that kind of atemi, so if course It's Aikido.
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Old 01-13-2017, 02:22 AM   #20
Alex Megann
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Rupert Atkinson wrote: View Post
Kanetsuka's Aikido is some of the best there is. If he's doing it, it's Aikido.
I confess I don't fully understand why he showed that mawashi-geri - and then repeated it, for good measure - though I can make a couple of guesses. First of all, it's a form of atemi like any other (and I disagree with the poster who suggested that he is in any real danger of losing his centre). Secondly, Kanetsuka Sensei has for years been stressing that aiki comes from a whole-body spiral (though not in those words) and mawashi-geri - in contrast to mae-geri - is just that. Finally, he might have been just showing off: most people ten years younger than him would risk seriously injuring themselves if they tried to do jodan mawashi-geri.

The other short clips, in my opinion, show very high aiki skills.

Alex

Last edited by Alex Megann : 01-13-2017 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 01-13-2017, 10:58 AM   #21
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Re: Is this aikido?

Just as an aside to Alex's post - Chiba Sensei once told me Kanetsuka had the best balance he'd ever seen - so maybe he can do these movements because of that without losing his centre where others can't.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:44 PM   #22
Alex Megann
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Just as an aside to Alex's post - Chiba Sensei once told me Kanetsuka had the best balance he'd ever seen - so maybe he can do these movements because of that without losing his centre where others can't.
Hi Philip,

That's an interesting comment. Yes, he does have a striking physical imperturbability, at the same time as being almost impossible to resist once he starts moving..

Congrats on the nanadan, by the way!

Alex
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Old 01-13-2017, 04:42 PM   #23
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Is this aikido?

Quote:
Philip Smith wrote: View Post
Just as an aside to Alex's post - Chiba Sensei once told me Kanetsuka had the best balance he'd ever seen - so maybe he can do these movements because of that without losing his centre where others can't.
Hello Alex,

I second Philip's point -- and I, too, had it directly from Chiba Shihan. I also had the benefit of some serious uke training for KS in his Ryushinkan Dojo. It was the cancer in his neck that forced him to rebuild his aikido. I remember meeting him in hospital in Oxford. I had already moved here and I heard he was very ill. I went to see him and your father hastily arranged some overnight accommodation in Oxford. He was to begin chemotherapy the following day. The rest is history.

Even after having been taught by Yamaguchi, Tada, Arikawa, I still look back on those Ryushinkan years as fundamentally formative. He had the body and the balance, much to CS's chagrin, but had hardly started the personal training regime for which he has now become famous. For many years he was regarded in the Hombu as an unknown quantity, but I suppose the 8th dan was a sign of recognition.

Best wishes,

PS. I second Alex's congratulations on the 7th dan promotion. As some one in the Hombu told me privately when I received mine: "There's a big difference -- You have joined the club."

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 01-13-2017 at 04:44 PM.

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