Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-28-2003, 10:50 PM   #1
pointy
Dojo: aikido of park slope
Location: brooklyn, ny USA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 62
Offline
sound familiar?

i'll wait to post my own thoughts other than - yes, i know the stuff at the bottom is wack. but please read.

http://home.datawest.net/esn-recover...ls/mm_used.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 03:22 AM   #2
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 350
Netherlands
Offline
Hi Evan,

I thought it was a pretty fair description of the American/ Western social conditioning apparatus instituted at birth and maintained for the rest of our lives.

Did I miss something?

regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 03:31 AM   #3
justinm
Location: Maidenhead
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 167
United Kingdom
Offline
Sounds pretty much like an aikido dojo I visited once, I'm sorry to say.

Justin

Justin McCarthy
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 04:45 AM   #4
drDalek
 
drDalek's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
Clearly any and all forms of thought reform cannot be labeled as malignant. The agenda behind said thought reform is what is important.

Many ancient and modern martial arts instructors have employed the exact same tools as mentioned in those articles to reform their students. In many cases this reform was indeed malignant with the only agenda being wealth or power to the guy at the top.

In many other instances this reform was not malignant although the same tools might have been used (fatique, fear/love, repetition immediatly come to mind in MA training) purely because of the agenda behind said reform.

The easiest way to know if you are stepping into a benign or malignant thought reform dojo is to study the character of the instructor and his top students both on and off the mat.

What I am getting at is that if the slap is meant to enlighten instead of humiliate then its not so bad to get slapped sometimes. (In a metaphorical sense)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 06:37 AM   #5
Ghost Fox
Dojo: Jikishinkan Dojo
Location: New York City (Brooklyn)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 219
Offline
I agree with Alec. It's more the intent of the person in charge that makes this method benign or malicious.

I can see similarities with this to the basic dojo structure, especially with a high-ranking Shihan in charge. Maybe this has something to do with the Japanese strong emphasis on the Cultural Mind as oppose to the Individual Mind. (No disrespect intended)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 09:49 AM   #6
pointy
Dojo: aikido of park slope
Location: brooklyn, ny USA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 62
Offline
i think the dojo i practice at is extremely laid back in regard to this sort of thing. even still, i can recognize so many things in our methods that are similar to what is described in the article. things that students are very subtley pressured into doing that are described in the article. acting a certain way during practice, bowing, repetition of words or slogans, etc.

not to mention the hunger part (i usually avoid lunch cuz it'll make me wanna barf if i eat, then go roll around a padded room at 5:30 haha)

it's just was a little shocking when i read the article. i realized that we do the a lot of the same things. i think the classification of malignant or benevolent is beside the point in a way. if im looking at it objectively then that stuff doesnt come into play. there's just the similarities, and i do find them alarming.

then again, i honestly do feel that the training ive received from my teacher(s), done at least with a little bit of similarly to the methods described in the article, have benefitted me greatly. i am defintiely a different person than i was 4 years ago before starting aikdio, both physically and mentally. and yes i do think it's all for the better.

i guess it's good to have the ideas presented the way they are in the link. if for no other reason than to help myself or others realize that there is something of a subscribed method to all the bowing and "onegaishimasu's" we do every day in our training. the method can easily be warped into something that isnt very pretty. maybe it's a reality check?

peace

evan
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 10:10 AM   #7
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 350
Netherlands
Offline
Personally I think there are plenty of people out there who could do with brainwashing, when you consider the state of their brains. Of course, in my case, it wouldn't fit in the washing machine, and, worse still if it did, it would shrink in the dryer

Dorothy: "Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore"

Toto: "Wake up, Dorothy, we were never in Kansas."

regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 04:35 PM   #8
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Quote:
evan sobel (pointy) wrote:
if for no other reason than to help myself or others realize that there is something of a subscribed method to all the bowing and "onegaishimasu's" we do every day in our training. the method can easily be warped into something that isnt very pretty.
There is a world of difference between agreed upon rules of etiquette that serve to oil the gears of civil society (or "subscribed methods", say, for doing medical procedures or priming walls for painting...) and the coercive division of the world into "us versus them" that characterizes both abusive spouses and religious, political, or martial arts cults.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 09:05 PM   #9
pointy
Dojo: aikido of park slope
Location: brooklyn, ny USA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 62
Offline
hi Janet,

yes, of course there is a big difference. or is there? im not trying to imply that we're all cluelessly involved in some wacky cult. however i was shocked at how similar some of the points and methods are. just food for thought that's all. even if we're the only ones chowing down.

and you're totally right about the us vs. them thing. IMO aikido's philosophy is something of an answer to that very question.



see ya

evan

Last edited by pointy : 08-29-2003 at 09:08 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2003, 10:40 PM   #10
Janet Rosen
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,339
Offline
Quote:
evan sobel (pointy) wrote:
hi Janet, (snip)

see ya

evan
hehehe...indeed you may, I get to Park Slope about once a yr on family visits to "the old country." Give my regards to Gordon, Kjartan, and of course to Sensei.

cheers

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2003, 10:41 AM   #11
pointy
Dojo: aikido of park slope
Location: brooklyn, ny USA
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 62
Offline
small world Janet! i wonder if we've worked out together before... i'll say hi to them for ya
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2003, 11:25 AM   #12
PhilJ
 
PhilJ's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Bukou
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 240
Offline
Quote:
Wynand van Dyk (drDalek) wrote:
Clearly any and all forms of thought reform cannot be labeled as malignant. The agenda behind said thought reform is what is important.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing Wynand, but it made me think of a different question.

I have to wonder if imposed manipulation is "ok" regardless of the intent. When I say "imposed", I mean something which done in an exploitative fashion (taking advantage of a weakness) rather than a brute-force method (locking someone in solitary for 6 months while watching the Partridge Family or something).

To me, it's like the church/religion for kids. Aren't they essentially being brainwashed? Sure there are plusses and minuses, and the churches (for the most part) have good intent. But what is the end result? Is free thought involved in it?

*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Enso Aikido Dojo, Burnsville, MN
An Aikido Bukou Dojo
http://www.aikidobukou.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2003, 01:18 PM   #13
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 350
Netherlands
Offline
All forms of thought control are malignant, starting with parental indoctrination, followed by school, supplemented by advertising, fashion, tribal customs, you name it. Any free people out there? Have you been deconditioned? Who did it? In what direction?

Please, is this the best we can do?

quaking in fear, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Article: A Love of Sound by Paul Schweer AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 1 05-24-2006 05:56 AM
Mysterious Action of Kotodama Chris Li Voices of Experience 32 11-20-2004 06:52 AM
Technically proficient/Tactically sound stern9631 Training 19 08-04-2004 01:07 AM
Does your Aikido come with sound effects? Kensai General 23 06-12-2003 11:10 PM
Best sound to make when doing tech? jaxonbrown Humor 38 11-08-2002 04:25 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:20 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate