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Old 03-30-2001, 08:15 AM   #26
The One
Dojo: The Universe
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Ok, thanks for your opinions. I know Ali knew how to punch and I'm not making a generalization here that a good martial artist can automatically hit better than pro boxers but I still earnestly beleive that if Bruce Lee gave a full punch he could hit just as hard if not harder than Ali.

And about Bruce and Chuck Norris, and this applies to him and Ali too, how can you beleive size matters? I'm guessing most of us are Aikido here, am I right? And whoever said that Chuck Norris could beat Bruce Lee because of his physical size, I'm assuming you're an Aikido as well. How can you beleive that size matters? They're not even that much different in size but it shouldn't matter anyway.

And just think, if you are a true martial artist then you shouldn't find it hard to beleive that Bruce could beat Ali. Boxers train so limitedly. They train their bodies, mostly their arms. Bruce Lee trained his mind, body, and spirit. I'm pretty sure his Ki(or flowing energy as Bruce called it) was much more powerful than Ali.

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-30-2001, 08:35 AM   #27
Mark Cochran
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Burce Lee only a movie star! I agree that he may not have been the greatest MA ever to have lived. However he has contributed to the popularity of martial arts the most. With out him most of the major movie MA stars would simply still be competeing in tournaments or maby not even training at all. About fighting him I don't realy know. His movie persona tends to block the veiw of his reality. There are a number of people who say that Mr Lee was week on his left side, both offensivly, and defensivly. That this fact was something he always strove to improve and that it was conceled in many of his movies. About his fighting the Great Muhamad Ali (Im sorry if I miss spelled his name.) He once said that if he were to ever get into a fight on the street and just use boxing he would get beaten badly. Boxing is after all a sport. So I have to decide a victroy for Bruce Lee in that event.

The meek shall inherit the earth. It is our duty to seek out and protect them.
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Old 03-30-2001, 08:38 AM   #28
akiy
 
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Quote:
The One wrote:
And just think, if you are a true martial artist then you shouldn't find it hard to beleive that Bruce could beat Ali. Boxers train so limitedly. They train their bodies, mostly their arms.
I'm curious -- how long have you trained in boxing?

-- Jun

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Old 03-30-2001, 08:52 AM   #29
andrew
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Quote:
The One wrote:
And whoever said that Chuck Norris could beat Bruce Lee because of his physical size,
Obviously not because of his physical size, cos then I'd hammer Bruce Lee too. Chuck Norris is an extremely skilled martial artist. (Five consecutive world karate titles, retired, came out of retirement to win another three, I believe.) In most martial arts size WILL prove to be an advantage when fighters are simularly skilled, though. Why do you think they have weight divisions?

andrew
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Old 03-30-2001, 10:31 AM   #30
Erik
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Quote:
The One wrote:
Ok, thanks for your opinions. I know Ali knew how to punch and I'm not making a generalization here that a good martial artist can automatically hit better than pro boxers but I still earnestly beleive that if Bruce Lee gave a full punch he could hit just as hard if not harder than Ali.
My understanding is that Ali wasn't really known as a puncher. I'd suggest that someone like George Foreman, prime or maybe even otherwise, hit harder than Bruce Lee could ever dream of hitting. Mass counts.

Quote:
And about Bruce and Chuck Norris, and this applies to him and Ali too, how can you beleive size matters? I'm guessing most of us are Aikido here, am I right? And whoever said that Chuck Norris could beat Bruce Lee because of his physical size, I'm assuming you're an Aikido as well. How can you beleive that size matters? They're not even that much different in size but it shouldn't matter anyway.
Size matters a lot. Look at the NHB situation and the Gracies. They lose these days because the big guys have discovered how to grapple. Big good guy vs little good guy. Guess who wins most of the time. Size alone isn't everything but size and skill is a damn potent combination.

Quote:
And just think, if you are a true martial artist then you shouldn't find it hard to beleive that Bruce could beat Ali. Boxers train so limitedly. They train their bodies, mostly their arms. Bruce Lee trained his mind, body, and spirit. I'm pretty sure his Ki(or flowing energy as Bruce called it) was much more powerful than Ali.
I'm certainly not sure of that. If all that ki/flowing energy stuff was so potent don't you think that someone would have risen through the competitive fighting arts and with the touch of his pinky to the secret ki meridian magically disable all his opponents in a minute or so. Less on his good days. I'm not disputing energy/ki or the value of pressure points, I'm just suggesting that maybe it isn't all that it gets cracked up to be.
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Old 03-30-2001, 11:28 AM   #31
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Niadh, how did I date myself? Because of the statement I made, do I seem young or old? I remember that commercial from the early 1970's. I'm just curious.

Bruce Lee admitted that his "one in punch" demonstration was just that, a choreographed demonstration. So yes, the "uke" made the strike appear more powerful. So the question here is could Mr. Lee punch as hard as Mr. Ali or Mr. Tyson? No, I don't think he could.

Force equals mass times acceleration. Mr. Lee weighed approximately 145 pounds. I'm not sure exactly how much Mr. Ali or Mr. Tyson weigh, but I'm guessing it is somewhere around 215 pounds give or take (probably give). If each person was able to coordinate their movement in such fashion to efficiently make use of their whole body during the punch, Mr. Lee would have to punch much (and I mean a lot) faster than Mr. Tyson or Mr. Ali to achieve the same force.

Mr. Lee had incredible hand and foot speed, but I'm not sure that he was as fast as would be necessary to achieve a more powerful punch. Both Mr. Tyson and Mr. Ali also had very fast hand speeds, so I believe they could indeed punch with more force than Mr. Lee. Gee, all those physics classes in college turned out to be useful after all.


LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 03-30-2001, 01:01 PM   #32
Jim ashby
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Mass times accelleration

See, I knew there was a good reason to drink all that beer after a class! It's a good job that our Dojo is in the grounds of a pub. If size does matter I've got the best signature.
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 03-30-2001, 01:13 PM   #33
bones
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Quote:
lt-rentaroo wrote:

Force equals mass times acceleration. Mr. Lee weighed approximately 145 pounds. I'm not sure exactly how much Mr. Ali or Mr. Tyson weigh, but I'm guessing it is somewhere around 215 pounds give or take (probably give).
Unfortunately for physics, Mr. Lee and Mr. Ali or Mr. Tyson are not spherical ballistic objects, but firmly connected to the ground which they use to generate force. It is my understanding that a typical karate black belt (whatever that means) will generate almost twice the impulse as a typical heavyweight boxer. The trade off being that the ideal karate punch is linear {kotegaeshi anyone?} while boxing punches come from all directions and are difficult to deal with.

-e preston
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Old 03-30-2001, 01:29 PM   #34
mj
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Why aren't the Karate 'black belts' all world champion boxers, then?
Are you saying that they hit twice as hard as a boxer???
If you are, and I accept you may not be, I can only say I... disagree, strongly. Boxers hit people, hard, all the time, so they have 'real' experience. But anyway, without being disrespectful to anyones point of view, Ali (especially) or Tyson, would destroy Mr Lee.
That's why I picked those names
I'd rather watch Ali than Lee
I would rather study under Lee.

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Old 03-30-2001, 02:34 PM   #35
Erik
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Heading off topic

Quote:
lt-rentaroo wrote:
Hello,

Niadh, how did I date myself? Because of the statement I made, do I seem young or old? I remember that commercial from the early 1970's. I'm just curious.
Ah, the memories.

"conjunction function, what's your junction?"

"and, but and or, will take you pretty far."

And the answer is 3.

That's the problem with the whippersnappers of today. They don't get English lessons with their cartoons.
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Old 03-30-2001, 04:08 PM   #36
The One
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Thank you Mr. Bones...

Ok, mj, are you saying you beleive Ali would beat Lee in a boxing match? In which you restrict more than half of Lee's technique and power? Or in a regular old street fight where anything goes? Because then I'm sure Bruce Lee would win but then again I also think he would win a boxing match so...

But anyway what if all the karate black belts (like me soon...hopefully) don't wanna be champion boxers? Ever thought of that...

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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Old 03-30-2001, 04:53 PM   #37
mj
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Hi The One... I believe Ali would kick Lee's ass anyplace, time or where. Ali is a god, Lee is a legend. Ali fought with broken bones, fought when he was 'old' and had the respect of the world. And deserved it, IMO. Lee never proved himself to the world. Don't get me wrong, that isn't a statement to annoy anyone etc... and it's not to insult anyone either, we all have to 'prove' ourselves I suppose. But Lee wanted fame and fortune, again... not an insult to him because so did Ali. If Lee could have beaten Ali and thought so, well... they were both at their prime at the same time and he didn't. All I'm saying there is it's not for you, me or anyone to speak on his, or Ali's behalf. I was lucky enough to have a private karate teacher when I was young, and I did some boxing when I was older, there are pros and cons with both, agreed? A boxer makes millions if he's good, a karateka makes... what? To be honest karate hasn't stood the test of time, in the versions around now. Muay Thai, Kickboxing, TaeKwonDo have all been better 'fighting arts'. And they wouldn't've beat Ali either. But remember, that's just what I think, and I've chosen to do aiki... most martial artists hate that!

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Old 03-30-2001, 04:55 PM   #38
mj
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Good luck in your karate grading, too!

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Old 03-30-2001, 05:28 PM   #39
lt-rentaroo
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Hello,

Force equals mass times acceleration does not just apply to spherical ballistic objects. It applies to all moving objects whether they be fists, feet, cannonballs or paper airplanes (and yes, I enjoy making paper airplanes). Impulse power has to do with time which is a function of acceleration. You can develop a higher impulse power by decreasing the time it takes you to develop the force. Knowing this, I believe that a jab (generally considered to be mostly linear) thrown by Mr. Tyson or Mr. Ali would deliver more force than a jab by Mr. Lee.

Erik,

I'm pretty sure that the song went like this "conjunction junction, what's your function"

Personally, I prefer to think about the contributions Mr. Lee and Mr. Ali have made to their respective arts and remember how they lived their lives rather than wonder who could have hit harder than who. Have a good day!

LOUIS A. SHARPE, JR.
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Old 03-30-2001, 06:47 PM   #40
Nathan Richmond
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Hello MJ Mcfly

MJ,

What is up with your hang up with Ali and Tyson being bad asses? You actually think that they could hang with people who can kick, grapple, use wrist techniques and break bones? I wouldn't bet on either Ali or Tyson against any of the more well known fighters.

You said something about Muay Thai not matching up with boxing? Yeah right. There are a lot of martial artists and fighters that would destroy any boxer, ever, at any time.

Remember Boxers use gloves, they don't kick, they have rules to their game. A street fight wouldn't be condusive to them against an experianced fighter.

-nate
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Old 03-31-2001, 01:28 AM   #41
JimmyC
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I agree with nate on this. Tyson, while dangerous (not to mention mentally unstable) in the boxing ring, would have absolutely NO chance against some of the martial artists in the world, one on one. But, that would also depend on the type of fight. If it were a boxing match, then the obvious advantage would go to Tyson, but in a street fight, the martial artist would definitely have the upper hand. Ali, well let's not beat around the bush, is old. He would not last very long at ALL against anyone ever near Bruce Lee's caliber of martial arts, simply because he is not in his prime anymore. Martial artists are trained to use their
WHOLE bodies, not just their upper bodies, so they are all around more capable of defending themself in a fight.

Ultimately ALL knowledge is Self-Knowledge.
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Old 03-31-2001, 03:25 AM   #42
mj
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Hi Nate... Who's mj mcfly? It's not me is it
Your post doesn't make sense. You say a boxer has to fight by rules but a streetfighter doesn't? That's nothing to do with my posts.
I said Karate had been surpassed by other arts, in a 'fighting' way. Maybe though, that's just popular culture and how people see things.

JimmyC, Hi
If you read my posts, I said that Ali and Lee were both in their prime at the same time...
So who is this martial artist you are talking about that would beat Ali, boys?
This 'all round, kicking, punching, grappling, choking, arm-breaking, wrist-locking, fast as lightning, strong as an ox' killing machine, with a perfect defense?

Hey, it's cool though, I like your point of view.

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Old 03-31-2001, 07:22 AM   #43
Nathan Richmond
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MJ

You honestly think that Royce Gracie in his prime or someone of that magnitude couldn't beat a boxer in a street fight?What about Gene Labell? I don't have great knowledge of the great overall fighters that have been around. But answer me these questions?

1. How would Tyson or Ali deal with hard, powerful, and fast kicks in a no rules fight?

2. Could Tyson or Ali grapple if the fight went to the ground or would they falter?

3. How would Tyson or Ali do if there weren't any rules? No gloves, no time limits, no rules against hitting below the belt?

I think that pretty much sums things up. Granted Ali or Tyson would put up a good fight against some of the better street fighters/martial artists of the world. But I doubt that a fighter that can only punch and be hit above the belt has any sort of advantage.

-nate
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Old 03-31-2001, 08:11 AM   #44
mj
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? Boy, you keep changing the rules of the arguments, here, eh
How would Gracie or Lee cope with someone trying to bite their nuts off?
How would anyone? Do you know anyone who fights with no rules? Probably. Do you know anyone who could beat me if I threw a grenade through their window I think you're missing the respect that fighters treat each other with.
If someone can only punch... well Jack of all trades Master of none...

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Old 03-31-2001, 08:16 AM   #45
Nathan Richmond
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MJ one question

MJ,

I am not dening the validity of your arguement. I see your point quite well. I am just asking if you agree that although Lee or Gracie would have a hard time with Ali or Tyson's punching, wouldn't Ali and Tyson have the same problem with Lee's kicking or other martial art moves? Wouldn't Ali or Tyson have a difficult time grappling with Gracie? I am just saying that it is hard to know who would win in a street fight among these fighters because it would depend on what way the fight went. If it went to the ground probably Gracie, if Ali or Tyson landed a good punch, or if Lee was able to manipulate one of those punches or kick hard to their knees.

-nate
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Old 03-31-2001, 08:43 AM   #46
mj
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Yes Nate, agreed. Especially about the randomness of fights. Where I'm coming from is that you have to expect to BE hit, so that is what I'm basing my judgement on. We're just evaluating it differently. I can't claim to be right, though.

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Old 03-31-2001, 09:37 AM   #47
Axiom
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Y'all call this an aikido site?

No offense, anyone, but this site seems to have degenerated into a slightly more specific Rec.Martial-Arts, complete with WFC and NHB discussions, and arguments about celebrities fighting...the level of civility has also declined...remember that fact that we're aikidoka's. and not a bunch of people yelling at eachother vehemently in the schoolyard. At accordingly, and civily. And don't feed the trolls.

Alex Magidow

No offense to anyone.

_________
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
-- Gandhi
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Old 03-31-2001, 09:42 AM   #48
Erik
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Quote:
lt-rentaroo wrote:
Erik,

I'm pretty sure that the song went like this "conjunction junction, what's your function"
Another sign that I'm not 19. I'm forgetting things.
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Old 03-31-2001, 09:59 AM   #49
mj
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Axiom, Hi.
This is the chitchat forum, for anything not just aiki. But no offense taken thoug, and none was intended I'm sure. As to the NHB etc stuff, I personally have no interest in it. An art has to stand the test of time. Lots of them come and lots of them go.

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Old 03-31-2001, 10:14 AM   #50
The One
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Red face Karate and the test of time

Thank you for respecting our views Mj, as I respect yours.

Has anyone here seen The Legend Of Druken Master? Well if you have, try to remember the beginning of the last fight between Jackie and the guy that used mostly kicks. Remember how Jackie couldn't get one hit in for a few minutes? Well I'm thinking about a boxer and a Tae Kwon Do person...

And Mj, about arts standing the test of time? What exactly do you mean? Why hasn't karate stand the test of time?

Are you saying that it is now useless against other arts like Tae Kwon Do and Judo just because they have more tournaments?

Or are you saying that a shodan in Karate will not be able to protect himself on the streets as good as a shodan in Tae Kwon Do or other arts that have stood the "test of time"?

Please explain...

Kai
"Feel the pain, feel the joy, of a man... who was never a boy..." - X
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