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Old 07-15-2007, 01:30 PM   #26
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Just don't tell anyone.

Seriously, do we really still believe people draw knives, stand outside the range of each other and lunge in?
Do you believe that this NEVER happens? I saw two hobos doing this very thing once.

Ryan,
In order to get an answer, you must take time to formulate a question. Asking, "hey, isn't it true that I could just grab someone's arm, twist it down and pin them, armed or unarmed?" is a question, be the equivalent to asking "hey in tennis, can't I just pick up a racket hit the ball and win all the tournaments?".

The answer is of coarse yes, and also no. If you ask a vague question you will get a vague answer. Ask one question at a time, make sure that each question heads in the direction of the ultimate answer you need.

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Old 07-15-2007, 01:33 PM   #27
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Do you believe that this NEVER happens? I saw two hobos doing this very thing once.

Ryan,
In order to get an answer, you must take time to formulate a question. Asking, "hey, isn't it true that I could just grab someone's arm, twist it down and pin them, armed or unarmed?" is a question, be the equivalent to asking "hey in tennis, can't I just pick up a racket hit the ball and win all the tournaments?".

The answer is of coarse yes, and also no. If you ask a vague question you will get a vague answer. Ask one question at a time, make sure that each question heads in the direction of the ultimate answer you need.



Seems that Chris Hein can give very good advice.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:54 AM   #28
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Don Magee has the correct perspective. The realities of fighting are sometimes shatter by mysticism.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:43 AM   #29
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

IMHO 95% of all Martial Artists would lose an "unarmed" confrontation with a skilled knife fighter.

Don't fool yourselves. If you want to learn how to defend against any edged weapon... you had better know how to use one.

William Hazen

In a knife fight There is no Second Place.

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-16-2007 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:44 AM   #30
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Don Magee has the correct perspective. The realities of fighting are sometimes shatter by mysticism.
and sometimes the reality of mystery shatters the myths about fighting. You just don't know.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-16-2007, 10:49 AM   #31
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
IMHO 95% of all Martial Artists would lose an "unarmed" confrontation with a skilled knife fighter.

Don't fool yourselves. If you want to learn how to defend against any edged weapon... you had better know how to use one.

William Hazen

In a knife fight There is no Second Place.
NICE!

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Old 07-16-2007, 11:19 AM   #32
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
In a knife fight There is no Second Place.
One goes to the hospital, the other to the morgue.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:32 AM   #33
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Hello don
I would say we will find all type of knife fighter and you can not have generic rules.
In Missouri and Mississippi in the mid 1800, there was (and may be there still is ) a tradition of Bowie fighting based on French small sword…..

Nowadays I am not sure, it seems to vary a lot according to what the author has to sell.
From what I have experienced small sword, stiking art people and escrima people tend to snipe at the hands.
People with a grappling background tend to try to grabble and then stab (very often like a sawing machine).
People who are proficient in both fencing and grappling then to mix both
So I have seen a bit of both (but it is hardly a representative panel)

As William alluded I would prefer 50 matches against Bas Rutten that facing a skilful swordsman when he has a sword and I don't.
That being said, against a knife, empty handed and wearing appropriate clothing (like a good leather jacket) makes things much less iffy.

For me what really the problem is that most people do not realise how easy it is to change direction of knife attack and that makes voiding a single point deflection/block very iffy.
phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:57 PM   #34
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Safest - just don't be there
Safe-ish - enter real deep at the first opportunity, stand fairly close and place a hand just on the outside of their triceps. From there, they cannot effectively attack you and you can feel when they try to readjust the distance.

Whatever you do, for goodness sake, don't try to catch a hand or an arm - they move way way too fast, are too retractable and are too floppy to effectively attack the centre with in a realistic confrontation. No matter how fast the hand or arm is moving, the shoulder/triceps is nearly immobile, and off to the side behind someone is fairly safe, and a good place to start running from!

G>

Last edited by geoffsaulnier : 07-18-2007 at 12:59 PM.

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Old 07-18-2007, 01:30 PM   #35
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Sory Post Deleted. I couldn't see page 2, then after my post I could.

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Old 07-19-2007, 01:36 AM   #36
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

An interesting article on knife fighting with different subjects towards the middle of the page ....

BR,
MC
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Old 07-19-2007, 09:55 AM   #37
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Marc MacYoung is an interesting fellow. I've seen his video. Personally I think the system of Aikido is much more helpful.

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Old 07-19-2007, 10:06 AM   #38
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

I posted this back in May...

"Aikibu
05-13-2007, 03:39 PM
I emphatically vote no...Unless you are the type of Aikidoka who has an extensive background in some form of knife fighting and practices it consistantly.

I recommended this article to Sensei Ledyard a brief while back on Martial Arts vs Knife Fighting...In the Volume 15 Number 4 2006 Journal of Asian Martial Arts John McCurry and Eliot Lee Grossman J.D. wrote a great article titled "The Top Ten Errors of Martial Artists Defending Against a Blade."

The Abstract Quote: "There are ten deadly errors which make most empty-handed martial arts techniques against a knife ineffective. The principle error stems from the fact that few present-day martial systems teach the blade. The premise of this article is that to effectively defend against a knife,you need to know how to use one. The purpose of this article is to motivate martial arts instructors to analyze more critically thier unarmed knife defense techniques based on a clear understanding of the use of the knife, and to reawaken interest in the blade arts in the martial arts community."

The Article's Top Ten Errors...

1. Not knowing how to fight with a blade.
2. Improper Mind-set and lack of Blade Awareness
3. Incorrect Structure
4. Blocking
5. Kicking
6. Permitting Gaps Between You and the Attacker
7. Using Techniques Designed for Unarmed Adversaries
8. Ignoring the Adversary's Checking Hand
9. Failing to Follow-up
10. Unrealistic Training.

After careful study of the authors reasons I came to the conclusion that unless we revamped our practice to include serious and consistant study of the tanto that my students would be better off going to someone like Mr. McCurry to learn about knife fighting rather that suffer the perhaps fatal delusion that they are properly trained to handle someone with a knife. I sure hope Mr. McCurry's practice gains wider interest within our community."

Could not find the original link.LOL

William Hazen
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Old 07-19-2007, 10:32 AM   #39
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Hello all, I see you are having a nice conversation, but as so many others go I don't quite understand the things said. As far as I know all of you train in Aikido, but do you really train in Aikido? I know that the philopshy isn't for everyone, but O'sensei made this art to deal with any form of attack, don't forget he trained in a least like ten arts I think, some many including sword arts. So a tanto and wakazashi were more than likely implemented. And besides, what kind of question is Aikido work in a fight? Does anything work in a fight? Of course it does, but you're talking like someone from karate, Aikido is not force on force, Aikido harmonizes, but remember, as O'sensei said, how can you hope to harmonize with attackers if you have not first harmonized with yourself?
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:40 PM   #40
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
Sean Vayda wrote: View Post
Hello all, I see you are having a nice conversation, but as so many others go I don't quite understand the things said. As far as I know all of you train in Aikido, but do you really train in Aikido? I know that the philopshy isn't for everyone, but O'sensei made this art to deal with any form of attack, don't forget he trained in a least like ten arts I think, some many including sword arts. So a tanto and wakazashi were more than likely implemented. And besides, what kind of question is Aikido work in a fight? Does anything work in a fight? Of course it does, but you're talking like someone from karate, Aikido is not force on force, Aikido harmonizes, but remember, as O'sensei said, how can you hope to harmonize with attackers if you have not first harmonized with yourself?
With all due respect...

Your understanding of Aikido... it's history... and technique...needs further study... and... hard practice on your part. It's true that Aikido can be all the things you've mentioned and much more...

Most of us here are onto the 'much more" part.

Comparing your "insides" to our "outsides" is one of the first waystations one reaches on thier journey along the "path". Don't dally for too long.

William Hazen
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:48 PM   #41
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Do you believe that this NEVER happens? I saw two hobos doing this very thing once.
Yeah, I tend to agree...if I had not trained, the few days I have, I probably would be the type of guy to lunge out...it seems to many people get used to 'proper' fighting techniques and forget that so many people that will fight, might not have a technique or watch enough video games and movies to know the difference.

Also, today we did both lunge and close range with 'tanto'.
Some interesting stuff which actually seems effective...again, effective depends on the situation and who is involved.

Peace

Dalen
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:50 PM   #42
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

William,

Hard to agree, and hard to disagree with that.

Hard for me to agree, because I think the theory of Aikido works nicely with knife fighting, in fact all weapon fighting. Hard for me to disagree, because I know that fighting is more then theory.

I believe that the theory and technical syllabus of Aikido is better then the theory and technical syllabus that Mr. MacYoung suggests, that's why I said what I did. Most people who discuss knife, fighting, or really martial arts at large are just discussing theory.

Now putting theory into application is another matter. I believe the types of training that most Aikidoka are doing today is not enough to drastically help them in an actual knife confrontation. But I believe the information is there in the system of Aikido.

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Old 07-20-2007, 12:02 AM   #43
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
William,

Hard to agree, and hard to disagree with that.

Hard for me to agree, because I think the theory of Aikido works nicely with knife fighting, in fact all weapon fighting. Hard for me to disagree, because I know that fighting is more then theory.

I believe that the theory and technical syllabus of Aikido is better then the theory and technical syllabus that Mr. MacYoung suggests, that's why I said what I did. Most people who discuss knife, fighting, or really martial arts at large are just discussing theory.

Now putting theory into application is another matter. I believe the types of training that most Aikidoka are doing today is not enough to drastically help them in an actual knife confrontation. But I believe the information is there in the system of Aikido.
It's cool. One of the reasons I picked the style of Aikido I practice is Shoji Nishio's comment that in order for Aikido to be considered a Martial Art (Budo) it must measure it's effectivness against other Martial Arts otherwise it's just dancing. I love discussions of theory... However sooner or later one must test one's hypothesis Oui?

We have various waza with regard to weapon " take away defense" All Mr MuCurry strongly suggests is that the training be realistic and pragmatic. As Our Scottish Friend suggested the best thing to do is avoid any confrontation with a knife fighter along the same lines as avoid trying to outbox a boxer. Having been there and done that and as skilled and experianced as I think I am (LOL!!!) I count my blessings in this regard. I have never had to face a real knife fighter unarmed with a serious intent to do me harm. There is always been something nearby to even the odds thank God.LOL

I have been training in gun and knife take aways for a very long time since before I joined the service and honestly 90% of the "tanto" waza I see is too easily glossed over with the participents making the dangerous assumption that the technique will always work or covers all the basic principles of defense against Edged Weapons.

Frankly I think most of the Koryu Arts have far superior "Weapon Waza" as they are true Combat Arts. Perhaps Aikidoka such as myself should focus on this a little bit more in order to preserve the Budo in Aikido. I am blessed with the fact that 100% of our practice is done with edged weapons in mind and spirit.

Take Care Chris.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-20-2007 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 07-20-2007, 10:08 AM   #44
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Nice post William!

There is a big problem with people mistaking theory for application. Just like you said in your post:

"of the "tanto" waza I see is too easily glossed over with the participants making the dangerous assumption that the technique will always work or covers all the basic principles of defense against Edged Weapons."

The first time I told some of my students "hey we're going to do tanto dori, but the guy with the knife isn't going to fall down, he's going to resist you, and if he can he's going to switch knife hands" they were cut to ribbons.

The form is just the form. It has lots of good answers to the situations that arise in weapons conflict. However the form (no form Aikido or any other martial art system) can address the reality of an actual confrontation.

So I would say it doesn't matter what system you study, the forms are just the forms. They have some answers, but they are not training you for an actual situation where another person is trying to stop, or kill you.

Personally I think Aikido's forms are great. If you take them for what they are (forms just forms) they are quite complete, and nicely put together. The real training happens outside of the forms though. With someone actively working against your technique, and spontaneously trying different things on you. This is when you can study the real beauty of our system, and learn how magnificent Aiki really is!

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Old 07-20-2007, 11:45 PM   #45
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Two stories here which may be of interest as regards the above thread.
Firstly regarding the standard tanto strike we use in Aikido - ie lunging forward with the knife. When I used to work as a butcher on at least 3 seperate occasions I saw people give themselves "butchers cuts". This is when someone cuts meat in a sawing type motion and the knife hits bone unexpectedly. What tends to happen is the knife stops moving but the hand doesnt - ie your hand slides down the blade of the knife slicing it open. Its a pretty nasty cut (one guy lost the feeling in his hand) and - dependant on the target area, if you actually used a knife as we do in practice on a person (aiming for around the breastbone and holding it like a sword with one hand) youd be pretty likely to slice your own hand open. Obviously if you aim for the soft, squishy stomach etc then no problems, but there are far better ways of holding a knife which brings me neatly to point 2.
I have the unfortunate distinction of meeting a knife fighter in a confrontation. I wont go into too much detail but I got into a fight with a tramp (very James Bond, I know) and he indicated that he had a knife so, of course, I said the same (even though I didnt have one). He then proceeded to strip off his jacket and wrap it round his left forearm then pulled out a knife which he held point down with his forefinger over the base of the handle. When I saw this I knew this guy was actually USED to knifefighting - the protected arm for parrying blows and what I consider to be a very effective way of holding the blade for slashing down into the opponent.
For fear of the inevitable moral judgement Ill get, I wont go into detail as to how I got away but when I did - I ran like hell in the opposite direction. A guy like this who really knows what hes doing and takes such an effective stance would slash any unarmed martial artist to ribbons I reckon.
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Old 07-22-2007, 03:00 PM   #46
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Ai symbol Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

When it is said that it is helpful in training for knife defence if one understands the blade from an attackers perspective, I see a direct parallel with regard to empty hand attacks within Aikido. Specifically, once one goes outside the traditional attacks that really seem designed to demonstrate channeling energy flow and establishing connection there can be a "ceiling" or a plateau that can be quickly reached as far as transitioning from form to practical application because so many Aikidoka have never trained in striking arts. Further, it can be a challenge for many to establish the "attacker" state of mind just like one would also need for knife training. Certainly, when I was training in karate or BJJ that issue never really came up, if anything you had to be mindful to reign people in.
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Old 07-23-2007, 08:40 PM   #47
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

i would run if confronted with a knife. if i see i cannot outrun him, then i would choose to fight. at least that's my contingency plan, who knows how it would work out. as it stands, however, i would not fight an armed man empty handed.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:15 AM   #48
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

William has made the strongest point here.

I started my journey in Aikido in 'Ki Aikido', as my ideas on what 'Aikido to me' should be I have moved on. I would say now that I have two great teachers, non of which affiliate to any of the big names.

What I will say is that training in iaido is probably one of the biggest jumps I've made in understanding. Aikido, I believe, needs to go back to its roots. Koryu arts are the obvious port of call for training methods. As the writers in Diane Skoss’s book and Toby Threadgills article would suggest, in a real fighting situation we need to deal with psycho chemical stress (PSC). This causes a tunnelling of vision and a reduction in hearing and motor function. How do we over come this, well, Sensei Threadgills article would be a start, secondly, bokken and iaito training is awesome for developing zanshin. Thirdly... and this pains me, the shodothugs are correct, we need to fight. 'Practice fighting' of course but we need to fight. In your training, you have to build up the pressure placed on the shite by ukete in anyway that you can.

Ultimately if your training goals are different, then PCS is not important. But if, as aikidoka, we CLAIM self-defence then our students should know how to defend. The reality is that arts like BJJ, Boxing etc don’t have superior techniques, what they do have are better methods of allowing their students to deal with the stress of being attacked, for real, with little or no holding back. Some of you may think 'well my attacks are real', but at the end of the day if those real attacks occur in prescribed kata then really you are just learning the shape of the techniques, not application. Kata training IMHO should be about 60-70% of what we do. But that other percentages need to be developing the mind to deal with the stress of someone wanting to stab you.

So in answer to the original post, one cannot simply 'just' twist an arm. Chances are that you've been stabbed, if not, they will pull the arm back and stab you again. That’s why 'safe' realism is so important in the dojo.

Osu
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:18 AM   #49
Janet Rosen
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

I will echo Chris' posts above by recalling an aikido-l seminar a few yrs back where one session was people doing knife attacks w/ water based magic markers and allowed to go outside usual tanto-tori waza to do hand changes, etc, and the unarmed person was free to try any reversals, etc. I don't think anybody came out without significant "damage", it was a real wake up call for many.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-24-2007, 04:29 PM   #50
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Re: Aikido does work in a fight and withsomeone unarmed

Janet, that sounds like a cool exercise!
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