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Old 10-14-2017, 10:14 AM   #1
arjandevries
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Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Hi there,

Does anyone has some ideas about ushiro ryote dory and ushiro ryokata dori?
Where do these attacks come from?

Arjan
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Old 10-14-2017, 04:55 PM   #2
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Originally, they were frontal attacks, where you "yank" the person around and get behind them. Quite common in older jujutsu styles.

It's a fair speculation that in Daito-ryu/aikido, these techniques were integrated as a way to put 'stress' on the body from behind - can one retain a connected body while behind pulled in some direction from behind.

This is a logical supposition because if there were purely a concern for combative readiness from behind, there are a number of more effective ways to take a person downwards or off-center from the rear that no DR or aikido system considers. Therefore, it's very likely that they adapted elements of older combative forms and reworked them as a training device to develop the 'aiki body' from a particular 'angle.'
Ellis Amdur

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Old 10-14-2017, 05:31 PM   #3
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Hello Arjan,

There is some discussion in the common introductions to Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938).

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:40 PM   #4
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Ushiro ryote properly begins from a flank attack -- with the fairly obvious implication of an attack on a weapon hand , and both turning nage with the grasped wrist, and moving to exercise control from behind -- which can resolve as either a ryote or kubishime control.

If you put a knife in nage's hand, which uke grabs from a slight flank attack, the proper dynamic in the initiation becomes obvious and natural.

Ryokata is more of front control, but also only makes sense to initiate from the side, with an applied turn of nage to apply a control in kuzushi.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:24 AM   #5
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post

This is a logical supposition because if there were purely a concern for combative readiness from behind, there are a number of more effective ways to take a person downwards or off-center from the rear that no DR or aikido system considers. Therefore, it's very likely that they adapted elements of older combative forms and reworked them as a training device to develop the 'aiki body' from a particular 'angle.'
Ellis Amdur
What would they be?
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Old 10-15-2017, 11:50 AM   #6
Ellis Amdur
 
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Re: Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Oisin - "by what would they be," do you mean what kind of techniques? To enumerate a few from the Araki-ryu (other ryu approached this differently, so Takenouchi-ryu, Shosho-ryu, or Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu might have different takes of this):
1. Grab them by the hair, slam them backwards to concuss and stomp on their head (the name of this technique is "the unification of the topknot and the throat")
2. Simultaneously to grabbing around the neck, stomp the back of the knee and lever your shoulder forward into the back of the neck to hopefully break their neck, but at minimum, putting them in a perfect position to continue into a tracheal strangle (called "falcon stoop")
3. The grab entry, followed by slipping behind (like 'aiki' arts), but continuing with a stab with a short weapon. (called "the truth of grappling")
4. A simple tackle from behind, followed by a pin and a leveraged neck/spine break (called "bringing back to life," for reasons I do not know)

There are more. . . but that's a start. That's what was considered and trained originally.

Ellis Amdur

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Old 10-15-2017, 12:44 PM   #7
oisin bourke
 
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Re: Origin of ushiro ryote and ryokata dori

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Oisin - "by what would they be," do you mean what kind of techniques? To enumerate a few from the Araki-ryu (other ryu approached this differently, so Takenouchi-ryu, Shosho-ryu, or Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu might have different takes of this):
1. Grab them by the hair, slam them backwards to concuss and stomp on their head (the name of this technique is "the unification of the topknot and the throat")
2. Simultaneously to grabbing around the neck, stomp the back of the knee and lever your shoulder forward into the back of the neck to hopefully break their neck, but at minimum, putting them in a perfect position to continue into a tracheal strangle (called "falcon stoop")
3. The grab entry, followed by slipping behind (like 'aiki' arts), but continuing with a stab with a short weapon. (called "the truth of grappling")
4. A simple tackle from behind, followed by a pin and a leveraged neck/spine break (called "bringing back to life," for reasons I do not know)

There are more. . . but that's a start. That's what was considered and trained originally.

Ellis Amdur
The grab-rear entry doesn't really apply to daito ryu as I trained anyway. The corpus of ushiro techniques start from rear attacks and work from there. The techniques aren't as apparently violent as the ones you mentioned, but there are a number of rear strangulation, stabbing, kicking, pinning and locking techniques.
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