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Old 07-09-2002, 03:23 AM   #1
aries admin
Dojo: Aikikai Philippines
Location: Philippines
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 34

Sorry to start a new instead of replying on the one below. Its however long and would be best to start a new one.

Once in a documentary from a Korean TV they featured Tae Kwon Do practioners. The documentary includes techniques,training, forms, teachers and schools. the necessity of FORMS. With few exception from teachers of the SPORT schools and OLYMPIANS.
The Olympians and sport schools tend not to teach and/or burden their students with forms. Some of their teachers claim that it is a waste of time to teach it and would rather spend their training in fighting/sparring techniques. Some advices that they study the forms after the NORMAL trainings.

The TRADITIONAL TKD teacher argues that the practice of no forms produces students that is shallow. Just slam bang students. Nothing inside. The Teacher of traditional TKD says that in order for a student to become a better martial artist a deep knowledge of the art should practiced -that is through meditation. Kata they say is meditation in practice or meditation in movement.

The documentary shows students of the none kata schools going through traditional schools studying forms. The students claim that through forms they perform better.

Form they claim, calms the minds, relaxes the body and help strengthens the muscles. They also claim that the forms, in time with deep meditation, will be usefull in 'REAL FIGHT'.
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Old 07-09-2002, 06:22 AM   #2
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
here we go again.....


the kali thread

Matt Thorton and company

top 6 reasons

(The last thread is a bit jumbled, but the point should be clear.)

Then draw your own conclusions.


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Old 07-09-2002, 07:51 AM   #3
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
Having trained in both, the traditional forms and realistic no-form styles, IMHO both are very useful and the study of one without the other leaves something lacking.

Most "either/or" and "versus" threads imply and mutually exclusivity that doesn't necessarily apply. Rather than "exclude" perhaps harmony would suggest "include".

Until again,


Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 07-09-2002, 11:31 AM   #4
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
No wonder there is confusion

Well, Paul Watt, it is not a wonder you are angry and confused about the nonviolent intentions of Aikido verses the brawling fight mentality of those links you posted.

If you are doing Aikido to be a Bad-ass, like most of the people who post on those threads, then it is not wonder you are always confused and angry.

Been there, done that, hurt people I didn't mean to hurt, so now I use Aikido to learn not to hurt people.

As for forms, or Kata.

I will say it again.

Every move in Kata or forms is designed to immobilize or kill using pressure points that are activated by using angle and direction of movements withing Forms or Kata.

The hard way to learn is to hit the body continuously until by accident you activate pressure points through continous damage or chance causing injury or death.

Aikido has taken many of the deadly techniques and reformed them into much safer practices that are still effective.

Kata or forms are not lackluster dances that are lost to the practitioner in training, but roadmaps to techniques that can cause serious injury or death if you know where and when they should be applied.

Problem is, not all people who learn forms learn their application.

It is only in the last couple of years that I am finding applications for Forms or Katas that I have learned or seen. Many times, I can pick out the particular general application without the pressure point application, but now that I am becoming more comfortable with recognizing what combinations are dangerous and what combinations are safe, my Aikido sense of broad application without activating certain pressure points is key to safety.

If you are uncomfortable with pressure point, then nerve ending, or plain old sensory ending should suffice as it is the same thing.

In any case, every little pain has a connection to some part of the bodys function, and activating the right number of receptors in the right place in the correct order.

Forms or Kata are roadmaps to many of these techniques.

Aikido gives you a practical method to practice within a safe arena. If you want to pursue it to its more deadly roots, or observe it while you practice for its possibilitys, that is an outside area of normal practice.

None the less, no matter what art you do, you will use pressure points to cause some type of pain to encourage the opponents body to move in a direction or way you want.

If learning Forms or Kata makes this clearer or gives you a way to remember movements or teach them, great.

Hopefully Aikido will make your knowledge become more tempered as it has for me.
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Old 07-09-2002, 12:27 PM   #5
Lyle Bogin
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai
Location: Manhattan
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 588
I believe kata have as much, if not more, to do with the mind, body and mind/body coordination as they do with practical and destructive technique.

They can lead to the same kind of non-destructive application as aikido (if there is such a thing).

It depends on your interpretation, perception, and personal nature.
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Old 07-09-2002, 12:54 PM   #6
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768

Now more than ever you haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Your judgements about me are as faulty as your reading comprehension skills.

I made no statements, claims or anything of the sort. I merely provided links to similar threads and allowed any who read them to draw their own conclusions. I added the Thorton link so that people could get an idea of Thorton and gain a perspective from where he's coming from.
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Old 07-15-2002, 07:17 AM   #7
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893


Neither have you a clue to what I am or do.

But, after John Stevens seminar last weekend, I do know I see much clearer what Aikido is, where it is going, and where it should go.
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