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Old 11-04-2004, 02:47 PM   #26
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Miguel Angel wrote:
Ok, let me tell you something people. What i just posted up there are words from Morihei Ueshiba, there were found in documents and poems. Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.
Didn't you read the response where I stated this was from a quote? And the reasons why I had a problem with the way it was phrased?

As far as being history's greatest, well...

Your enthusiasm is admirable, but perhaps just a little short sighted.

Be well,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:47 PM   #27
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

BTW, I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.
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Old 11-04-2004, 02:57 PM   #28
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

i like how Ghuck Gordon talks. i like what you have to say. And i also like a couple of glasses of wine and some beers to try not to masturbate or self. Chuc i want to hear you.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:13 PM   #29
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

If I were an aikidoka with 5 month experience and I would like to see or hear a person practicing the art since 1973, I would use different words.
BTW, what was the topic of conversation? Oh yes... attacking...
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:28 PM   #30
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Suren how much you being practicing?, From your tone its look like sin 1903. If you are so smart answer this?, Where exactly is located Gajuki Dojo.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:38 PM   #31
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Miguel, I'm practicing for 4 month and I'm sorry, I do not know where exactly Gajuki Dojo is located. And I do not think I'm very smart (even though I defended my PhD when I was 24).
Anyway, I think this thread is very educational. It presents a question "Why certain attack is used" and part of the question suggests that Aikido does not attack. Chuck Gordon presented an attack in his post. You failed to blend and redirect. And now I hope you know why attacks are used in Aikido - to teach us how to deal with them. As for a higher level of attack application, I would suggest you read an article written by George Ledyard sensei and posted on www.aikidojournal.com.
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Old 11-04-2004, 03:46 PM   #32
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

JA thats the kind of actitud i want at this thread. Chuck, you Suren and me should meet. i liked what you wrote:
(I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.)

we got almost the same time at Aikido. thats no coincidence.
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:12 PM   #33
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Nice to hear that. I would not mind a meeting with you and Chuck as I'm sure I can learn a lot from both of you. I would suggest Chuck's place since they have good beer
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Old 11-04-2004, 04:32 PM   #34
ChristianBoddum
 
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Hi !
Nishio sensei has stated that katatetori is at the heart of Aikido,since it is really not an attack,
in Aikido we use katatetori because we donīt fight ,we donīt want to be at a distance from each other,so really it is a gesture - a friendly one ,in order for us to cooperate instead of fighting.
Like shaking hands you could say.
From that point we can learn principles of Aikido.
Of course katatetori can have attacking elements - grab and punch with the other hand,
but that you will learn as you train.

yours - Chr.B.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:28 PM   #35
Charles Hill
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Suren Baghdasaryan wrote:
BTW, I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.
Hi Suren,

Interestingly, I read an article by Burt Richardson, a Jeet Kune Do teacher, that said that a morotedori type grab is the best way to defend against a knife attack. He actually seemed to indicate that this is the only way to not get cut.

Charles Hill
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:31 PM   #36
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

What exactly is the question being asked in this thread? I'm not sure what it is that's being said about katatetori. Are you trying to say that it shouldn't be used since it's an attack? And if that's the case, why do we use any attacks in Aikido? Would it be better to have a class with just two people standing on the mat staring at each other for an hour?

Quote:
BTW, I've never been grabbed in morote dori during such a fight. So if I were to question their combative value I would rather question morote dori than katate dori.
Out of curiosity, how many fights have you been in? And in those fights, did you ever see anyone attack with a formal shomenuchi or yokomenuchi either?

Quote:
And i also like a couple of glasses of wine and some beers to try not to masturbate or self.
Huh?

Quote:
The idea that the nage waits for the attack is really a mistaken idea and is martially disadvantageous.
I must agree.
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Old 11-04-2004, 09:41 PM   #37
Atomicpenguin
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Ok, let me tell you something people. What i just posted up there are words from Morihei Ueshiba, there were found in documents and poems. Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. Even as an old man of eighty, he could disarm any foe, down any number of attackers.
This raises an interesting issue. Does anyone think that deification is detrimental to long-term training? My gut reaction is that it is, however, I wonder if holding the self to an unattainable ideal would necessarily detract from one's actual skill level. Certainly it offers an excuse for yudansha who feel incapable of attaining perfection and it seems an almost necessary phase of early training. Nonetheless, I'm curious about whether or not someone could maintain that sort of perception about one's seniors/founders on into a more advanced level and still make the same degree of progress as one who did not. I am familiar with practitioners who have carried such a perception but in none of those cases am I familiar with the person's Aikido abilities. Any thoughts?
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:18 PM   #38
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote:
Hi Suren,

Interestingly, I read an article by Burt Richardson, a Jeet Kune Do teacher, that said that a morotedori type grab is the best way to defend against a knife attack. He actually seemed to indicate that this is the only way to not get cut.

Charles Hill
Charles, you are right, I've never attacked anybody with a knife I'm just not aggressive person.
Once I've been attacked with a knife, but attacker was too incompetent, so I just ignored the knife and he did not harm me.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:28 PM   #39
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
David Enevoldsen wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many fights have you been in? And in those fights, did you ever see anyone attack with a formal shomenuchi or yokomenuchi either?


Huh?
Not many. During my school and university years overall maybe around 10-15 times. In last 5 years - 0. Katate dori was used couple of times when someone tried to set me up for a punch and once when I was aiming at opponent's stomack, he grabbed my hand and kicked me. So not much expertise here.
As for formal shomenuchi and yokumenuchi, I don't think they were ever used. Instead usually there were hooks and straight punches. But I believe if you know how to deal with yokumenuchi and tsuki, you will figure out something against a punch or a hook.
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Old 11-04-2004, 10:48 PM   #40
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

My thoughts of morote dori is that it's probably not very wise to grab someone's one hand with your two hands leaving the other unattanded... At least I've never seen such a thing and I would probably not do it myself.
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Old 11-05-2004, 06:58 AM   #41
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

So whats going to be, Katate-tori its really an attack? or is the best way of practice a technique Whit out damaging a student?. If is an attack, so Aikido i base on attacks.
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Old 11-05-2004, 07:46 AM   #42
Greg Jennings
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Suren Baghdasaryan wrote:
My thoughts of morote dori is that it's probably not very wise to grab someone's one hand with your two hands leaving the other unattanded... At least I've never seen such a thing and I would probably not do it myself.
So, do you do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, kotegaeshi, or sumiotoshi?

Ever thought of morotedori as an attempted applied shomenuchi yonkyo?

I'm not a little guy (6'2", 200 pounds), but I've had people almost bounce me off the mat with katatedori.

I'm not good enough to do that, but I haven't run into too many people that I can't throw with morotedori.

Best,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 11-05-2004 at 07:51 AM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 11-05-2004, 11:29 AM   #43
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
So, do you do ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo, kotegaeshi, or sumiotoshi?

Ever thought of morotedori as an attempted applied shomenuchi yonkyo?
Good point and probably people who does jiyu waza with resistance can answer this question better than me.

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I'm not a little guy (6'2", 200 pounds), but I've had people almost bounce me off the mat with katatedori.

I'm not good enough to do that, but I haven't run into too many people that I can't throw with morotedori.
Yes I can imagine someone being thrown from morote dori. However in a fights situation (again, I'm not at all an expert in this and haven't been in that situation for a long time) I would not imagine a person to allow grab him that way. In the simplest case he would probably either move back to avoid the grab or move his hand most probably down and back (though moving it to a side may also work) and possibly applying atemi with the other hand. I'm not even talking about experienced fighter, the above scenario can be performed instinctively by a child.

Anyway, I don't want to defend a point which I myself don't think to be very strong. Please reread my initial post about morote dori, which says that in MY little experience I've have never seen it applied and if I WERE to quesiton application of any attack in a fight, morote dori would be the first candidate.

Feel free to continue this discussion, but please do not assume I'm an expert in real fights or I'm against practicing morote dori.
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Old 11-05-2004, 11:58 AM   #44
Greg Jennings
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Suren Baghdasaryan wrote:
However in a fights situation (again, I'm not at all an expert in this and haven't been in that situation for a long time) I would not imagine a person to allow grab him that way.
Just wanted to say up front that I'm not trying to put anyone on the defensive, just to make a point in a Socratic kinda way.

Here is one way to visualize how morotedori happens.


1. Uke initiates shomenuchi while stepping or sliding into aihanmi.
2. Nage extends a'la shomenuchi to meet and parry the attack and perhaps execute a technique like ikkyo.
3. Uke attempts to steer nage's extended shomen to name's front, thus "opening the door" toward nage's shikaku, big toe to little toe a'la ikkyo ura.

If allowed to "open the door" complete the movement, uke will take nage's yonkyo spot with what started as his back hand, break nage's balance by "floating him" with the yonkyo, then tenkan into a nice applied yonkyo ura.

(I actually like to do this omote, but the ura seemed easier to describe).

4. Nage perceives something is going on, and centers/does the Iwama kokyu extension thing/extends ki to keep shoulders down and the grabbed arm on center line.

We're now in what we think of as the starting point of morotedori.

There is a rich set of possibilities behind what we're doing in aikido.

For me, personally, if I weren't explicitly thinking about those possibilities and exploring them (I sometimes say "peeling the layers of the onion"), I wouldn't be doing aikido anymore.

Everyone else's milage might vary and I'd be cool with that.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 11-05-2004, 12:04 PM   #45
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Nice explanation Greg. I almost visualized Kokyu ho as a continuation.
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Old 11-05-2004, 12:30 PM   #46
Greg Jennings
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Suren Baghdasaryan wrote:
Nice explanation Greg. I almost visualized Kokyu ho as a continuation.
Wonderful, Suren. I'm always happy to be of any added value.

I hope you'll think about what I posted about "peeling the onion".

Warm regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 11-05-2004, 12:33 PM   #47
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Quote:
Greg Jennings wrote:
I hope you'll think about what I posted about "peeling the onion".
Greg, you should stop watching that "Shrek" movie
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Old 11-05-2004, 12:44 PM   #48
j0nharris
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

In our dojo, katate dori is often followed up by a strike from the other hand, or a kick.
And almost certainly, someone grabbing for your shiny new wristwatch on the sidewalk would be close to katate, as well.
Someone placing their hand on your wrist isn't much of an attack if they have no intention... it's what they intend to do after they grab you that you may want to be concerned with.

Just my two cents -- or less given the way the economy is going

jon harris

Life is a journey...
Now, who took my @#$%! map?!
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Old 11-05-2004, 04:08 PM   #49
Miguelspride67
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

So do you people think, katate-tori should be followed by an atemi?, i think if we do it always we will be practicing jujutsu. What do you think?,
Some guys have told me katate-tori is in Japan a gesture like shaking hands, and others keep saying is an attack.
If is like shaking hands should we practice a technique with our friend that salute us?

Nive explanation Greg
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Old 11-05-2004, 04:43 PM   #50
suren
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Re: Why Katatetori is used in Aikido?

Shaking hands ?!
Left to right? Or right to left?....
Is this a joke? If so you got me!
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