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Old 02-05-2019, 03:53 AM   #2151
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Did you actually read what I wrote or what? I'll repost just in case: yes it's used for single techniques but represents teachings concerning those techniques. Meaning the techniques as in ikkyo is the equivalent of Ippon dori. And the steps you are referring too are actual techniques Ikkyo is a technique, Nikkyo is a technique and Sankyo is a technique. Seriously what don't you get about this?
I understood what you wrote, but you didn't answer my question. Which teaching is it, that is represented by Ikkkyo?
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:30 AM   #2152
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
You don't have to immobilize someone with nikkyo, either. That's not the point of nikkyo at all. Like any knockout/submission you apply it when you lock the opponent out of options, which is not just about "space to move", but "time to move", as well. There is a "brief lock".
Either someone or some part of that someone has to be immobilized if you are going to refer to nikkyo as a "wristlock" technique. The name submission clearly states what it's about and nikkyo becomes a submission only when you get to the shoulder. That's it. That's where he has either no space or any time left to move.

Quote:
The timing element becomes very evident when you try to apply nikkyo to someone who really doesn't want you to succeed. In cooperative practice, this element of timing is completely neglected.
I'll for the most part with this.

Quote:
You're redirecting this toward a different subject. Yes, someone could break their own wrist and keep fighting, that is a problem with pain compliance controls. However, they now have one less wrist.
Someone doesn't have to break their wrist. That's the point why nikkyo isn't a wristlock in the first place. You have very agile people and people with strong wrists who would mostly have soreness but not breakage and those type of people can endure the torsion of nikkyo ura and just go through you.

Quote:
We're not talking about kaeshi waza or sutemi here. If I pull off kotegaeshi successfully, it forces opponent to take ukemi. In doing so, they trade "immediate wrist damage" for "lying on the floor while I am still standing". They did not escape - they just opened themselves to a multitude of attacks.
You do realize you don't just lay down in either yoko or ushiro ukemi, it's not like in Judo where you learn to take a breakfall. In ushiro ukemi you should immediately roll backwards over your shoulder to get back on your feet and in yoko ukemi your rotation speed should be fast so you land on your thigh and be able to immediately stand up to counter attack or just slide in off the knees to attack the groin for instance. In ushiro ukemi you can also use the leg to kick yourself off thus doing a leg attack from back for instance.

Quote:
The whole "you can do kotegaeshi, so what, I'll just take ukemi" argument is nonsense. My initial point was that it's possible to apply kotegaeshi while standing. The benefits of its successful application involve being 1-2 steps ahead of the opponent in offensive timing.
I never made that argument. There are several points of successfully applying a technique, the first and most important is to know proper body movement. Which I'm not so sure how many people are really aware of.
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Old 02-05-2019, 04:53 AM   #2153
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
I understood what you wrote, but you didn't answer my question. Which teaching is it, that is represented by Ikkkyo?
Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc. You can do nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo and rokkyo all from ikkyo.
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:14 AM   #2154
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc. You can do nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo, gokyo and rokkyo all from ikkyo.
Ah, teachings....I see, you got it.
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Old 02-05-2019, 01:22 PM   #2155
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Either someone or some part of that someone has to be immobilized if you are going to refer to nikkyo as a "wristlock" technique. The name submission clearly states what it's about and nikkyo becomes a submission only when you get to the shoulder. That's it. That's where he has either no space or any time left to move.
All submissions can cause serious bodily harm IRL when cranked. Nikkyo is not a submission in a traditional sense. It's not a static wrist lock, but one that can be caught in a moment in time in order to snap the wrist.

Your argument is based on the assumption that if you can't fix something in place, i.e. "lock it" in traditional sense, the technique doesn't work. But it does. Compressing time limits the movement one can do to escape during that time.

Quote:
Someone doesn't have to break their wrist. That's the point why nikkyo isn't a wristlock in the first place. You have very agile people and people with strong wrists who would mostly have soreness but not breakage and those type of people can endure the torsion of nikkyo ura and just go through you.
There are also people with dual-jointed shoulders on whom a shoulder lock doesn't work... there are people with iron jaws who can't be knocked out by a punch... etc etc

Fortunately most people are average, not Cirque Du Soleil performers on PCP. Nikkyo will work on a lot of people at the wrist joint.

Quote:
You do realize you don't just lay down in either yoko or ushiro ukemi, it's not like in Judo where you learn to take a breakfall. In ushiro ukemi you should immediately roll backwards over your shoulder to get back on your feet and in yoko ukemi your rotation speed should be fast so you land on your thigh and be able to immediately stand up to counter attack or just slide in off the knees to attack the groin for instance. In ushiro ukemi you can also use the leg to kick yourself off thus doing a leg attack from back for instance.
Kotegaeshi is just the first step of an attack chain. Uke rolling out and getting up, is not "free" in terms of space-time. It's only free in cooperative practice, where nage is standing dumbfounded like an extra in a Van Damme movie. In reality, uke will face an uphill battle from an inferior position.
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Old 02-06-2019, 07:44 AM   #2156
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Ah, teachings....I see, you got it.
Yeah I did, funny I had to tell you about it.
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:09 AM   #2157
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yeah I did, funny I had to tell you about it.
No, it's not really funny, it seems that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or which teachings in which kajo are transmitted. You should have an answer, how this teachings are represented in the single techniques, if you think they represent this system of kajo, you would not answer in this way you do: "Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc.", that is rather vague.

Maybe you would talk about kinds of receiving the techniques, or something that could show that you undersstood the structure, but you do not.
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:44 AM   #2158
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
All submissions can cause serious bodily harm IRL when cranked. Nikkyo is not a submission in a traditional sense. It's not a static wrist lock, but one that can be caught in a moment in time in order to snap the wrist.
Nikkyo is not a wristlock at all. Even in nikkyo ura it's no about the wrist, it's about the forearm. I agree the move on the wrist can be used to snap it, but it's not a lock then.

Quote:
Your argument is based on the assumption that if you can't fix something in place, i.e. "lock it" in traditional sense, the technique doesn't work. But it does. Compressing time limits the movement one can do to escape during that time.
The point isn't whether it "works" or not. The point is what is the actual work being done. And there is no "traditional" sense in it or not.

Quote:
There are also people with dual-jointed shoulders on whom a shoulder lock doesn't work... there are people with iron jaws who can't be knocked out by a punch... etc etc
Fortunately most people are average, not Cirque Du Soleil performers on PCP. Nikkyo will work on a lot of people at the wrist joint.
There are far more people being able to endure a torsion caused by nikkyo than those with double jointed shoulders. And you can actually train yourself to endure nikkyo at the wrist more, you don't have to be a part of the cirques. As for the "iron jaws", there are other places to hit somebody on the head, like the neck, temple, cheek, behind the ear and regular hitting of the jaw actually turns it more into glass, go look at the last years of Chuck Liddell's carrier.

Quote:
Kotegaeshi is just the first step of an attack chain. Uke rolling out and getting up, is not "free" in terms of space-time. It's only free in cooperative practice, where nage is standing dumbfounded like an extra in a Van Damme movie. In reality, uke will face an uphill battle from an inferior position.
Oh for Chris't sake, you don't roll over your shoulder for 5 minutes, you do it in 2 seconds, really physically trained people do it in 1 and their barely touches the mat.
And that's why you are supposed to be taught how to defend and escape from that inferior position as soon as possible.
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Old 02-06-2019, 08:59 AM   #2159
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
No, it's not really funny, it seems that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, or which teachings in which kajo are transmitted. You should have an answer, how this teachings are represented in the single techniques, if you think they represent this system of kajo, you would not answer in this way you do: "Teachings dude, teachings. Entry, avoidance, redirection, kuzushi etc.", that is rather vague.
Neither do you have a clue of what I'm talking about. This whole conversation started with the names, as I pointed out that Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc. are based on the Ikkajo, Nikajo terms. You stated talking about how they are just "one, two and three" while they actually stand as names for different techniques as well. In other words you don't actually know what you are trying to explain here concerning the difference between Aikido and Daito ryu.

Quote:
Maybe you would talk about kinds of receiving the techniques, or something that could show that you undersstood the structure, but you do not.
Oh great, you seem to know the structure, then by all means explain it. Both the Daito ryu and Aikido structure and the difference between them.
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:23 PM   #2160
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Nikkyo is not a wristlock at all. Even in nikkyo ura it's no about the wrist, it's about the forearm. I agree the move on the wrist can be used to snap it, but it's not a lock then.
Quote:
The point isn't whether it "works" or not. The point is what is the actual work being done. And there is no "traditional" sense in it or not.
Eh, looks like I am arguing about physical application, and you're arguing about what it's called.

Quote:
There are far more people being able to endure a torsion caused by nikkyo than those with double jointed shoulders. And you can actually train yourself to endure nikkyo at the wrist more, you don't have to be a part of the cirques. As for the "iron jaws", there are other places to hit somebody on the head, like the neck, temple, cheek, behind the ear and regular hitting of the jaw actually turns it more into glass, go look at the last years of Chuck Liddell's carrier.
Yes, nikkyo can be an intermediate control on the way to "bigger control" - in theory. But in my experience, the practical version of "nikkyo as control" is waki gatame. That's when you get to the shoulder. Otherwise, it's better used as wrist snap or transition to sankyo, which is a more reliable control.

Quote:
Oh for Chris't sake, you don't roll over your shoulder for 5 minutes, you do it in 2 seconds, really physically trained people do it in 1 and their barely touches the mat.
And that's why you are supposed to be taught how to defend and escape from that inferior position as soon as possible.
In grappling context, the moment you can create a predictable reaction from your opponent, you can catch them in a submission, or worsen their position further - and it happens very fast. Kotegaeshi is one of the things which does exactly that. I would gladly demonstrate what happens when you take kotegaeshi ukemi, if you didn't live all the way in Serbia
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Old 02-07-2019, 03:30 AM   #2161
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
This whole conversation started with the names, as I pointed out that Ikkyo, Nikkyo etc. are based on the Ikkajo, Nikajo terms. You stated talking about how they are just "one, two and three" while they actually stand as names for different techniques as well.
Of course they are names, but what is the meaning? It's counting from on to five with gokyo included.
You said Ikkyo is a system, and that's not what it is, it's a single technique that derived from one technique of the hiden mokuroku, ippon dori. I think Ellis Amdur identified also one or two others as the source techniques.
So, not Ikkyo is a system, the hiden mokuroku is a system, from which ikkajo is one section, from which ippon dori is one technique, from which ikkyo derived...
What's the same is just the way to count, 1,2,3,4...

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Oh great, you seem to know the structure, then by all means explain it. Both the Daito ryu and Aikido structure and the difference between them..
It sounded like you have veryy good knowledge about that...
The structure in Aikido is simple, there are five basic osae-waza, and they are tought as steps from one to five, while they all have ikkyo as the base, at least in the most schools it's tought in this way.
Begining from Ikkyo you twist the arm more and come to nikyo, and so on.
There are theories in which angles and axes play a role. for example ikkyo and shiho nage are on the same axis, but rotated 180°, what's the reason für being in the same Kajo, the same with nikyo and kote-gaeshi.
The Kajo system that existed in the 50's (Tadashi Abes book) is a very stripped down version of the daito ryu system.

As regards daito ryu, there are explanations, in which the Kajo represent different ways of receiving attacks, how the hands are crossed and so on, but I don't know very exactly.
The structure of the daito ryu system is, that there are different sections or steps of teaching.
The first is the hiden mokuroku with 118 techniques in four sections, followed by 53 Aiki no jutsu techniqes, then hiden Ogi (36) Goshin yo no te (84) and Kaishaku soden (477).
The curriculum also includes Aiki-bo, Aikitachi, Aiki-ni-to, and Aiki-yari

Last edited by MRoh : 02-07-2019 at 03:37 AM.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:47 PM   #2162
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Aleksey Nikolaevich wrote: View Post
Eh, looks like I am arguing about physical application, and you're arguing about what it's called.
I'm arguing about what it is and what it isn't.

Quote:
Yes, nikkyo can be an intermediate control on the way to "bigger control" - in theory. But in my experience, the practical version of "nikkyo as control" is waki gatame. That's when you get to the shoulder. Otherwise, it's better used as wrist snap or transition to sankyo, which is a more reliable control.
You mean hijikime osae aka rokkyo aka shoulder pin.

Quote:
In grappling context, the moment you can create a predictable reaction from your opponent, you can catch them in a submission, or worsen their position further - and it happens very fast. Kotegaeshi is one of the things which does exactly that. I would gladly demonstrate what happens when you take kotegaeshi ukemi, if you didn't live all the way in Serbia
I would gladly participare in that.

Last edited by MrIggy : 02-07-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:44 PM   #2163
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Of course they are names, but what is the meaning? It's counting from on to five with gokyo included.
First of all Ikkyo means first teaching. Ikkajo would be something like first item or first section, mokuroku would mean catalogue. Therefore Ikkajo would be the first item in the mokuroku cataloque.

Quote:
You said Ikkyo is a system, and that's not what it is, it's a single technique that derived from one technique of the hiden mokuroku, ippon dori. I think Ellis Amdur identified also one or two others as the source techniques.
So, not Ikkyo is a system, the hiden mokuroku is a system, from which ikkajo is one section, from which ippon dori is one technique, from which ikkyo derived...
What's the same is just the way to count, 1,2,3,4...
I never said it was a system I said the name Ikkyo represents a single technique and teachings that are found in the training of that technique. However if it does come from more than one technique, Ippon dori, that actually makes the case of it being a systematic approach to something rather than being just a single entity. As Ippon dori is the first technique in the Ikkajo, there is the reason why Ikkyo is the first teaching.

Quote:
It sounded like you have veryy good knowledge about that...
I want to see what you think you know.

Quote:
The structure in Aikido is simple, there are five basic osae-waza, and they are tought as steps from one to five, while they all have ikkyo as the base, at least in the most schools it's tought in this way.
Begining from Ikkyo you twist the arm more and come to nikyo, and so on.
There are theories in which angles and axes play a role. for example ikkyo and shiho nage are on the same axis, but rotated 180°, what's the reason für being in the same Kajo, the same with nikyo and kote-gaeshi.
The Kajo system that existed in the 50's (Tadashi Abes book) is a very stripped down version of the daito ryu system.
Actually the structure in Daito ryu, concerning the Mokuroku, is much more simpler. You have the main catalogue (mokuroku) with five items (kajo) and techniques in each of the items (sections if you wish) that you study and that's it.

In Aikido you have 4 or 5 "basic teachings" or techniques (depending on who you ask) and then you have teachings (kamae, maai, kuzushi etc) that are associated with each teaching and various variations of techniques (uchi, soto etc) associated with them as well. By others you have more than 5 kyo-s, rokkyo (hijikimeosae) and nanakyo. However due to a "systematization" effort by the Aikikai, rokkyo is considered somewhat of a subset of nikkyo as gokyo is that of ikkyo so essentially you have 4 basic teachings and subset teachings. And in all of that you have to fit in the weapons work which isn't even taught at the Aikikai HQ. And let's not talk about the various instructors and their personal stamps on the curriculum being taught. In other words the Aikido curriculum is anything but simple.

As for the various theories about what's what and where. Here's a nice article I don't think you've read: http://kogenbudo.org/reflections-on-...d-aikido-waza/

Quote:
As regards daito ryu, there are explanations, in which the Kajo represent different ways of receiving attacks, how the hands are crossed and so on, but I don't know very exactly.
The structure of the daito ryu system is, that there are different sections or steps of teaching.
The first is the hiden mokuroku with 118 techniques in four sections, followed by 53 Aiki no jutsu techniqes, then hiden Ogi (36) Goshin yo no te (84) and Kaishaku soden (477).
The curriculum also includes Aiki-bo, Aikitachi, Aiki-ni-to, and Aiki-yari
And that curriculum depends on who is teaching it. The Kodokai by all the accounts I have heard don't even teach any of those techniques. The Takumakai seems to have a bit more up their sleeve or at least the same amount:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DE6S-UMI/tkm05.htm

Shoden 118 kajo ura-omote
Aikinojutsu 53 kajo ura-omote
Hidenoogi 36 kajo ura-omote
Daito-ryu Aiki Nito-ryu Hiden
Goshinyonote 84 kajo jo-chu-ge
Kaishakusoudennokoto 477
Kaidennokoto 88 kajo
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Old 02-09-2019, 10:55 AM   #2164
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
First of all Ikkyo means first teaching. Ikkajo would be something like first item or first section, mokuroku would mean catalogue. Therefore Ikkajo would be the first item in the mokuroku cataloque.
Thats what I tell you, why do you repeat? It's counting through the steps.
But it's not just randomized, there is a reason why techniques are systemized this way.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
I want to see what you think you know.
How tricky!

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
As for the various theories about what's what and where. Here's a nice article I don't think you've read:
Yes, read it
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Old 02-09-2019, 06:53 PM   #2165
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Thats what I tell you, why do you repeat? It's counting through the steps.
Which steps? You keep talking about steps and I keep talking about teachings. Those are two different things.

Quote:
But it's not just randomized, there is a reason why techniques are systemized this way.
Which? The Aikido or the Daito ryu techniques?

Quote:
Yes, read it
Great.
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:40 AM   #2166
MRoh
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Arrow Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Which steps? You keep talking about steps and I keep talking about teachings. Those are two different things.
Teachings normally follow a system, in which knowledge is transmitted in steps.
I asked you more then one, which teachings you identify in which kajo, and how it is represented in the single techniques, Ikkyo, Nikyo, sankyo, yonkyō, but you didn't answer.

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Which? The Aikido or the Daito ryu techniques?
both.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:01 AM   #2167
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Teachings normally follow a system, in which knowledge is transmitted in steps.
Yeah and for each teaching/technique you have several steps be it Ikkyo, Nikyo Sankyo etc.

Quote:
I asked you more then one, which teachings you identify in which kajo, and how it is represented in the single techniques, Ikkyo, Nikyo, sankyo, yonkyō, but you didn't answer.
You never asked me this. You asked me which teachings are presented in the techniques/teachings Ikkyo, Nikkyo, etc. and I told you things like kuzushi, maai etc. You never asked for a kajo/kyo comparison. However that would be interesting to do but you would also have to explain which teachings are presented in the kajo themselves and in which system. The mainline Kondo system, Takumakai or Kodokai and only then can you make a thorough comparison of what is what and where.
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Old 02-14-2019, 06:52 AM   #2168
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Markus, Igor: You're on the same continent. Drive or fly (air travel over there is cheap) to a common location, discuss all this in person over a few beers or coffee or something. Maybe even discuss it in a dojo with "hands on" and then have some beers. If you get it sorted out and become friends, post your conclusions.
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:07 AM   #2169
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yeah and for each teaching/technique you have several steps be it Ikkyo, Nikyo Sankyo etc.
So teaching and technique is the same?

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
You never asked me this. You asked me which teachings are presented in the techniques/teachings Ikkyo, Nikkyo, etc. and I told you things like kuzushi, maai etc. You never asked for a kajo/kyo comparison.
I asked you here:

Quote:
Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Which teaching do you think has daito ryu's ikkajo, and how is it represented in Ikkyo?
I recommend to read this thread about the correalation between the techniques of daito ryu and Aikido: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15096
It is made clear that the related daito ryu techniques from which the "kyo" derived, appear in different kajo, so the source techniques from which one techhnique derived mostly not only appears in the homonymic kajo (same step).
Te source techniques for nikyo for example are in every kajo:

Quote:
Immobilization No. 2 -- Nikyo (Kote Mawashi) ≈

Ikkajo: Gyaku Ude Dori, Tate Eri Dori, Dakijime Dori, Nukite Dori
Nikajo: Kote Zume, Shuto Zume, Gyaku Gote, Kamate Zume
Sankajo: Soto Gote, Uchi Ude Gaeshi
Yonkajo: Temakura Zume
Ikkajo Uragata: Tachi Eri Dori
The conclusion is, that from kajo to kajo the difference lies in the quality of the techniques:

Quote:
as you moved through the levels of technique, Ikkajo through Gokajo, the quality of the technique improved in the sense the higher the level, the less the technique relied on pure physical strength, relying more on timing, positioning, and manipulation of Uke.
So the higher the level, the more aiki.

Last edited by MRoh : 02-15-2019 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:29 AM   #2170
Walter Martindale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Markus, Igor: You're on the same continent. Drive or fly (air travel over there is cheap) to a common location, discuss all this in person over a few beers or coffee or something. Maybe even discuss it in a dojo with "hands on" and then have some beers. If you get it sorted out and become friends, post your conclusions.
two hour flight from Belgrade to Dusseldorf... Less than $300 canadian round trip... Share the costs - talk.
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:45 AM   #2171
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
So teaching and technique is the same?
Interchangeable.

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I asked you here:

"Which teaching do you think has daito ryu's ikkajo, and how is it represented in Ikkyo?"
First, kuzushi, second the angles aka tenshin movement in Aikido, and third distance or maai. At least based on the techniques I've seen from Katcuyuki Kondo's video.

Quote:
I recommend to read this thread about the correalation between the techniques of daito ryu and Aikido: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15096
It is made clear that the related daito ryu techniques from which the "kyo" derived, appear in different kajo, so the source techniques from which one techhnique derived mostly not only appears in the homonymic kajo (same step).
Te source techniques for nikyo for example are in every kajo:
Yeah I know, I have videos of the Ikkajo, Nikajo and etc. There also on youtube, plus this is the same article I posted before. However not exactly the "source" techniques.

Quote:
The conclusion is, that from kajo to kajo the difference lies in the quality of the techniques:

as you moved through the levels of technique, Ikkajo through Gokajo, the quality of the technique improved in the sense the higher the level, the less the technique relied on pure physical strength, relying more on timing, positioning, and manipulation of Uke.

So the higher the level, the more aiki.
And depending on who you ask. That's not aiki, just better proficiency in execution. Which also happens in Aikido...
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:36 AM   #2172
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post

And depending on who you ask. That's not aiki, just better proficiency in execution. Which also happens in Aikido...
Better proficiency in execution in both daito ryu and Aikido means to execute technique with a rising degree of aiki.
What is aiki? Indeed, it depends on who you ask.
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:40 AM   #2173
MrIggy
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

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Markus Rohde wrote: View Post
Better proficiency in execution in both daito ryu and Aikido means to execute technique with a rising degree of aiki.
What is aiki? Indeed, it depends on who you ask.
Depending on who you ask and who you know, no it doesn't.
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Old 02-25-2019, 01:06 PM   #2174
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Aiki -- co-ordination of mind and body.

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Old 02-26-2019, 02:16 AM   #2175
MRoh
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Depending on who you ask and who you know, no it doesn't.
Thats a very good and very sound argument.
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