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Old 12-08-2011, 12:47 PM   #1
genin
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4th dimensional combat

I have been forced into a war recently. Without getting into specifics, my enemy just hit me with a "fire and forget" missile of sorts. They launched their attack over two months ago, and it just now hit me. We are now engaged in a very touchy form of warfare, in the sense that it is not a matter of straightfoward combat.

Part of it has become a legal battle, but that is only one dimension of it. The part that I am struggling with is the element or dimension of time. It took 9 weeks for their attack to find me, meanwhile the enemy had to wait patiently during the interim...and they continue to wait. But even once I counter that attack, it will again take weeks before I see any outcome myself.

I fear that my intensity to fight will fade over time, as I'm sure theirs did in the last two months. And at this point, I am not sure if my enemy cares enough to follow this out to its end. Perhaps this recent attack was just a knee jerk response from something that happened months ago. As I am completely in the right, and a victim of extortion, I feel it behooves me to follow this out to the end, and fight my enemy with every bit of intensity I can muster. I am a man of principle, and ultimately I want to see justice served. Even if my enemy wants to back out, or never cared about "winning" in the first place, I still want to make sure that they are forced to be accountable for what they did.

My question, or the topic of discussion, is how to manage anger and vengeance over a long period of time? How do we keep a proper warrior-minded mentality while engaging in a long term war?
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:17 PM   #2
LinTal
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Are you so convinced that managing to keep anger and vengeance over a long period of time is actually keeping a proper warrior-minded mentality? There are many long-term wars fought by mercenaries looking for a dollar (or esteem, or dominance, or fulfillment, etc.).

Nursing hatred will keep that fire. You need to decide at what costs, and if that is really what you want.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:37 PM   #3
Cliff Judge
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Selin Talay wrote: View Post
Are you so convinced that managing to keep anger and vengeance over a long period of time is actually keeping a proper warrior-minded mentality? There are many long-term wars fought by mercenaries looking for a dollar (or esteem, or dominance, or fulfillment, etc.).
He said managing, not managing to keep.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:41 PM   #4
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Selin Talay wrote: View Post
Are you so convinced that managing to keep anger and vengeance over a long period of time is actually keeping a proper warrior-minded mentality? There are many long-term wars fought by mercenaries looking for a dollar (or esteem, or dominance, or fulfillment, etc.).

Nursing hatred will keep that fire. You need to decide at what costs, and if that is really what you want.
I'm not sure if I actually want to nuture hatred of my enemy for months and months on end. My question is as much about "should I" as it is, "how to". I fear that without an intense hatred to fuel my efforts, that apathy and convenience will eventually compel me to let this go, even at my own expense. And while letting it go may seem like a reasonable thing to do for most, imagine seeing one of your family members victimized, or you being victimized yourself, and someone telling you to just "let it go", meanwhile your enemy continues to lie about you, berate you behind your back, and laugh at your misfortune.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:50 PM   #5
LinTal
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
He said managing, not managing to keep.
Yep!! Figured the sense of it was the same.

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if I actually want to nuture hatred of my enemy for months and months on end. My question is as much about "should I" as it is, "how to". I fear that without an intense hatred to fuel my efforts, that apathy and convenience will eventually compel me to let this go, even at my own expense. And while letting it go may seem like a reasonable thing to do for most, imagine seeing one of your family members victimized, or you being victimized yourself, and someone telling you to just "let it go", meanwhile your enemy continues to lie about you, berate you behind your back, and laugh at your misfortune.
There's the difference between the intentional and unintentional 'letting go' though, if you choose to keep following this through, will the situation be improved? Will the outcome be? What about the lasting effect for everyone involved?

The world changes when you do.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:11 PM   #6
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Selin Talay wrote: View Post
There's the difference between the intentional and unintentional 'letting go' though, if you choose to keep following this through, will the situation be improved? Will the outcome be? What about the lasting effect for everyone involved?
It comes down to "What is my ultimate goal?" vs. "What outcome can I expect out of this?"

My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy. This is essentially the same goal that they have for me. My biggest concern is about my enemy's children, whom I have no desire to adversely effect in any way. But the same way a judge wouldn't hesitate to sentence a killer to life in prison, even if the killer was a loving father and would never see his 5 children again, I too can't let the fact that my enemy has children influence my sense of justice. I won't target them, but I will allow them to fall victim to collateral damage if it comes down to it.

What outcome do I expect? That I honestly can't predict it. My enemy is not intelligent, nor do they possess good decision making skills. That being said, they'd ruin their own lives just to spite me. Therefore, I have to be willing and able to accommodate them in that respect, at all costs.

Last edited by genin : 12-08-2011 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:19 PM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy.
Go see a doctor.
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:27 PM   #8
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Go see a doctor.
Not the first time I've been told that, lolz!
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:58 PM   #9
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Just let it go....
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:05 PM   #10
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

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Cherie Cornmesser wrote: View Post
Just let it go....
Heard that one too!
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:09 PM   #11
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I'm not sure if I actually want to nuture hatred of my enemy for months and months on end. My question is as much about "should I" as it is, "how to". I fear that without an intense hatred to fuel my efforts, that apathy and convenience will eventually compel me to let this go, even at my own expense. And while letting it go may seem like a reasonable thing to do for most, imagine seeing one of your family members victimized, or you being victimized yourself, and someone telling you to just "let it go", meanwhile your enemy continues to lie about you, berate you behind your back, and laugh at your misfortune.
My personal opinion is that if it was anger keeping the motivation around it probably was not worth it. If it is anger keeping the motivation around, it's probably not worth it. I take a kind of Mr. T approach where I generally feel pity the "foo'." To my mind, an attack is almost always a sign of desperation. I pity people who are in a desperate frame of mind...even when they're also ass-holes . Kill 'em with kindness and hold on to your center. My guess is that most people watch the examples you provide more than the hearsay of antagonists. Where crimes have been committed, you have the right to file charges. Where they have not, you don't.
How do you manage a long-term fight (your gist, as I've read it)? You don't overdo things and you don't fight where you don't have to.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:45 PM   #12
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
My personal opinion is that if it was anger keeping the motivation around it probably was not worth it. If it is anger keeping the motivation around, it's probably not worth it. I take a kind of Mr. T approach where I generally feel pity the "foo'." To my mind, an attack is almost always a sign of desperation. I pity people who are in a desperate frame of mind...even when they're also ass-holes . Kill 'em with kindness and hold on to your center. My guess is that most people watch the examples you provide more than the hearsay of antagonists. Where crimes have been committed, you have the right to file charges. Where they have not, you don't.
How do you manage a long-term fight (your gist, as I've read it)? You don't overdo things and you don't fight where you don't have to.
Those are good points Matthew. I felt pity too, up until the point where I realized I was being targeted out of sheer contempt for who I am as a person. I don't care if you (they) throw me under the bus to save yourself, but don't toss me under there just so that you and your friends can laugh as my body bounces around under the tires!

I agree that trying to do too much too fast is problematic. Choose my battles, maybe? That's a universal truthism.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:57 PM   #13
LinTal
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

This is a valid issue; matters of the heart are rarely simple.

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
It comes down to "What is my ultimate goal?" vs. "What outcome can I expect out of this?"

My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy. This is essentially the same goal that they have for me.
...
That being said, they'd ruin their own lives just to spite me. Therefore, I have to be willing and able to accommodate them in that respect, at all costs.
Be mindful of the fact that these (or any) emotions are fleeting; you said yourself that theirs are starting to fade. The fact of your actions will remain, and it is by these that you will measure yourself and be remembered by. What effect will five minutes of satisfaction give? A heritage of bitterness for everyone remotely involved if this proceeds accordingly. Removing labels ("victim", "enemy") will help return a clear-headed perspective to the situation.

An example. You mentioned the prison system, and this reminds me of the original penitentiary theory. The idea was to create a supportive environment where people could pass through anger/grief cycles in a way that didn't impose upon others and be integrated back within society. Similarly, for your situation, perhaps what is needed is a space for both parties to come to a truer kind of understanding.

Have you both started moving towards this? There are some fights that can only be won by choosing not to fight.

Last edited by LinTal : 12-08-2011 at 05:03 PM.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:28 PM   #14
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Selin Talay wrote: View Post
This is a valid issue; matters of the heart are rarely simple.

Be mindful of the fact that these (or any) emotions are fleeting; you said yourself that theirs are starting to fade. The fact of your actions will remain, and it is by these that you will measure yourself and be remembered by. What effect will five minutes of satisfaction give? A heritage of bitterness for everyone remotely involved if this proceeds accordingly. Removing labels ("victim", "enemy") will help return a clear-headed perspective to the situation.

An example. You mentioned the prison system, and this reminds me of the original penitentiary theory. The idea was to create a supportive environment where people could pass through anger/grief cycles in a way that didn't impose upon others and be integrated back within society. Similarly, for your situation, perhaps what is needed is a space for both parties to come to a truer kind of understanding.

Have you both started moving towards this? There are some fights that can only be won by choosing not to fight.
My enemy just communicated with me today, and they made it very clear where they stand. Some people will become, and remain, life long enemies. It's sad, but it's part of life.

I've been willing to reconcile and move on from the very beginning, and I'd even fully relent if a genuine apology was given to me. But I'm dealing with weak-minded, mean-spirited people. They'll never be "the bigger person". Even if I tried to extend them the olive branch, they just snatch it out my hands and try to beat me with it. This is what I'm up against.
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:32 PM   #15
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Without more details, it's impossible to say how to proceed.

In some fights, one is actually "playing to the gallery" as it were. One's antagonist may never come around to one's point of view, but by extending the olive branch you can show yourself to be the better person and therefore win the battle for public opinion. This is quite often the case in academic and internet arguments where the actual stakes are relatively low but the reputational and social capital at stake is large.

In some fights, a person is trying to do you physical harm, and the logic of self-defense applies. The only acceptable end-state is for them to cease the harmful behavior, permanently. Besides simple assault situations, unsafe work or living conditions fall in this category.

And some fights are about money. These are generally wars of attrition. Warren Buffet will survive pretty much any legal battle he might get involved in, because in the very worst case where nothing goes his way, he can probably still find a sum that will make his antagonist go away without unduly diminishing his own resources. He can also interpose many layers between himself and his antagonist, minimizing his personal inconvenience. Most of us don't have Warren Buffet's resources, but the same logic applies. At some point, "winning" and "losing" become less important than balancing the resources invested against the possible gains. If you see this particular fight as one that you must win, and one that is likely to go on for a long time, then it is your best interest to conserve your financial and mental resources for the long haul.

Katherine
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:12 PM   #16
Rob Watson
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Introduce them to someone that will divert their attention away from you. The world is a big place and there are all kinds of folks out there.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:42 PM   #17
Cady Goldfield
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
My ultimate goal is to create a lasting sense of regret, frustration, and humiliation in my enemy. This is essentially the same goal that they have for me.
"The greatest pleasure is to vanquish your enemies and chase them before you, to rob them of their wealth and see those dear to them bathed in tears, to ride their horses and clasp to your bosom their wives and daughters." -- Genghis Khan

"What is best in life? To crush your enemies and see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women." -- Conan the Barbarian


As citizens of a civic-minded society, I'd hope that we can find more peaceable means of having our way than did Genghis Khan or Conan the Barbarian.

What good can come from vengeance, for you, except to poison your own soul?
If you can neutralize your opponent's attack and stop him from imposing further harm on you, that would be a far more productive use of your strategizing efforts, in my opinion.
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Old 12-08-2011, 08:47 PM   #18
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
I've been willing to reconcile and move on from the very beginning, and I'd even fully relent if a genuine apology was given to me. But I'm dealing with weak-minded, mean-spirited people. They'll never be "the bigger person". Even if I tried to extend them the olive branch, they just snatch it out my hands and try to beat me with it. This is what I'm up against.
Do you have to be up against it at all? What stops you from just walking away from it?

There are many situations in life where you aren't going to get whatever you think of as justice, or a fair outcome. There are situations where someone wrongs you, and you'll never manage to extract from them the "cost", whatever that is. Even if you believe that the hurts done to someone else somehow balance the hurts that they did you (they don't, but that's another discussion), in many situations you will never have the opportunity to achieve that balance.

Consider the situation of a child who is raised by an alcoholic or abusive parent. Certainly, in any simplistic moral calculus, you'd have to say that that parent "owes" the child. Now put yourself in the position of that child, grown to adulthood. You have to decide what you're going to do with your life. Are you going to hang around trying to get this parent to pay you back for all the hurt that they caused you? Or...are you going to let it go and get on with your life? It's your choice. But the hard truth is, while you're stubbornly waiting on a debt that you will most likely never collect, you're letting go of your opportunities to pursue something better.

So, you're probably thinking, that's different -- this person I'm dealing with is just a meanie. At any time, he could just stop being such a jerk, give me my abject apology, and make things right! So here's a question for you: why do you think that his power to stop being a jerk is so much greater, so much more a matter of a simple decision to just do it, than your power to let it go and get on with your life?

The more you hang onto your need to be vindicated, to be right, to get revenge, the worse those things will stink, the more they will eat away at you, and the less you will be able to open your hand to take hold of anything worthwhile.
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Old 12-09-2011, 06:38 AM   #19
LinTal
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

A man had two daughters; one was beautiful but mean-spirited, the other was plain-looking but gentle-hearted. Which is the more attractive one?

Just as this, one course of action may seem utterly desirable at first experience. However, it is the other that brings satisfaction rather than just glory.

The world changes when you do.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:12 AM   #20
RonRagusa
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Do you have to be up against it at all? What stops you from just walking away from it?

There are many situations in life where you aren't going to get whatever you think of as justice, or a fair outcome. There are situations where someone wrongs you, and you'll never manage to extract from them the "cost", whatever that is. Even if you believe that the hurts done to someone else somehow balance the hurts that they did you (they don't, but that's another discussion), in many situations you will never have the opportunity to achieve that balance.

Consider the situation of a child who is raised by an alcoholic or abusive parent. Certainly, in any simplistic moral calculus, you'd have to say that that parent "owes" the child. Now put yourself in the position of that child, grown to adulthood. You have to decide what you're going to do with your life. Are you going to hang around trying to get this parent to pay you back for all the hurt that they caused you? Or...are you going to let it go and get on with your life? It's your choice. But the hard truth is, while you're stubbornly waiting on a debt that you will most likely never collect, you're letting go of your opportunities to pursue something better.

So, you're probably thinking, that's different -- this person I'm dealing with is just a meanie. At any time, he could just stop being such a jerk, give me my abject apology, and make things right! So here's a question for you: why do you think that his power to stop being a jerk is so much greater, so much more a matter of a simple decision to just do it, than your power to let it go and get on with your life?

The more you hang onto your need to be vindicated, to be right, to get revenge, the worse those things will stink, the more they will eat away at you, and the less you will be able to open your hand to take hold of anything worthwhile.
+1

Ron

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Old 12-09-2011, 07:22 AM   #21
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Cady Goldfield wrote:
Quote:
What good can come from vengeance, for you, except to poison your own soul?
If you can neutralize your opponent's attack and stop him from imposing further harm on you, that would be a far more productive use of your strategizing efforts, in my opinion.
Well, what I'm going to do now is just focus on my legal case, as any other endeavor would probably undermine that. My enemy is already trying to bait me into a harrassment charge, or at a minimum, trying to get me to compromise my defense case. So all I can reasonably do right now is just get my case in order, and prepare to destroy them in court.

I think the problem I was having was my rage was overshadowing the real reason I am doing this. The reason is to show them that I'll NEVER submit to their demands, EVER. And I don't need to be angry or enraged to do that, however much I may feel those emotions. Even once the anger fades, I'll still be resolute and clear minded in my determination to defy my enemy at all costs. The truth is that I don't need to continue to foster and nurse my anger. I can let go of it, yet still continue on with my calculating plan.

lbb wrote:
Quote:
The more you hang onto your need to be vindicated, to be right, to get revenge, the worse those things will stink, the more they will eat away at you, and the less you will be able to open your hand to take hold of anything worthwhile.
My enemy, through their actions, BEGS me to prove them wrong. They compel me to defy them. And they force my hand against them. I was 9 weeks moved on with my life and forgotten about them, before they dragged me back for another go. The way I see it, I have little choice in this matter, regardless of the personal costs.

Last edited by genin : 12-09-2011 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:27 AM   #22
LinTal
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
My enemy, through their actions, BEGS me to prove them wrong. They compel me to defy them. And they force my hand against them. I was 9 weeks moved on with my life and forgotten about them, before they dragged me back for another go. The way I see it, I have little choice in this matter, regardless of the personal costs.
The choice is there. You are more than a victim caught in a perpetrator's role. So what else are you?

The world changes when you do.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:40 AM   #23
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Selin Talay wrote: View Post
The choice is there. You are more than a victim caught in a perpetrator's role. So what else are you?
I am a person. I can still be kindhearted to others, yet show my enemy no mercy.
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:24 AM   #24
lbb
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Roger Flatley wrote: View Post
My enemy, through their actions, BEGS me to prove them wrong. They compel me to defy them. And they force my hand against them. I was 9 weeks moved on with my life and forgotten about them, before they dragged me back for another go. The way I see it, I have little choice in this matter, regardless of the personal costs.
Speaking from personal experience, you probably have much more choice than you think you do. Even if they are BEGGING you to prove them wrong, what's forcing you to accommodate them? They can't force you to engage. You were 9 weeks moved on and they "dragged" you back -- how? By showing up at your house and breaking down the door and holding you at gunpoint?

The solution is simple. If they call, hang up. If they email, put their address in your junk filters and delete all their email unread. If you see them on the street, turn and walk away. If they pursue some legal action, let your lawyer handle all communication. Engaging will accomplish two things, neither of which you want: it will get you all worked up, and it will further encourage them -- they just tried their tactic on you, and hey, it worked!

So you say that you can't help getting worked up? That's natural. The best cure is, once again, simply not to respond or to show that you are affected -- in fact, not to show that you've even heard them. Stick to this, and over time, you'll feel that you're less troubled by it. And without the encouragement that you're giving them by engaging in their conflict, your antagonist will most likely get bored and seek gratification elsewhere.

Ultimately, you need to honestly reevaluate your "I HAVE to do this" assumptions. "I can't" is the corollary of "I HAVE to", and until you question the "I HAVE to"s, you'll find your life full of "I can't"s.
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:56 AM   #25
genin
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Re: 4th dimensional combat

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Speaking from personal experience, you probably have much more choice than you think you do. Even if they are BEGGING you to prove them wrong, what's forcing you to accommodate them? They can't force you to engage. You were 9 weeks moved on and they "dragged" you back -- how? By showing up at your house and breaking down the door and holding you at gunpoint?

The solution is simple. If they call, hang up. If they email, put their address in your junk filters and delete all their email unread. If you see them on the street, turn and walk away. If they pursue some legal action, let your lawyer handle all communication. Engaging will accomplish two things, neither of which you want: it will get you all worked up, and it will further encourage them -- they just tried their tactic on you, and hey, it worked!

So you say that you can't help getting worked up? That's natural. The best cure is, once again, simply not to respond or to show that you are affected -- in fact, not to show that you've even heard them. Stick to this, and over time, you'll feel that you're less troubled by it. And without the encouragement that you're giving them by engaging in their conflict, your antagonist will most likely get bored and seek gratification elsewhere.

Ultimately, you need to honestly reevaluate your "I HAVE to do this" assumptions. "I can't" is the corollary of "I HAVE to", and until you question the "I HAVE to"s, you'll find your life full of "I can't"s.
I guess you have to understand it from the enemy's point of view. They figure they can sue me, ignore me, and everything will be a-okay for them. I don't even think they care about winning the suit, so long as they can force me to be invovled in it. I can't ignore it, otherwise the law will issue a lein against me, and I'd still have to pay them.

They are hiding behind the law, abusing the legal system in a most unethical manner. I anticipate a glorious day in court for me, but other possibilites are that I lose the case due to a non-sympathetic judge, or my enemy simply abandons the case, and I win by default. To me, victory in court would be the ultimate revenge, but I can't say for certain that my enemy expects to win. I think they are just doing all of this to try and bait me into doing something really stupid. As long as I protect my interests, and proceed prudently, I'm pretty sure this will all go my way.
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