Taking ukemi from your instructor

if this week's poll is an indicator, about a third feared for their safety taking ukemi from their instructor. Can i ask, were you serious in your answers? how did you interpret this question? While in my dojo we might joke about the 'value added' throw this or that instructor has, or sadistic joy in the pin, we are not serious about it. Taking ukemi for the instructor is a gift to the uke...what kind of instructors lack the control (of technique, of themselves) that students fear the ukemi?

Seagal Sensei said something like O Sensei's ukes were afraid to die while attacking him.
And I read a post here in aikiweb of Tim Haffner, that said:

Also, I consider when Admiral Takeshita arranged a demonstration befoe the Emperor for O'sensei in 1938. O'sensei riginally refused saying that he would not show "false" technique to the divine Emeror. When Takeshita asked further, O'sensei said that if he was to perform "true" technique he would kill the attacker. Takeshita convinced him to perform before the Emperor, but was deathly sick up until he stepped on the mat. Yukawa, his uke, tried to compensate for the illness and attacked weakly, but O'sensei responded briskly and dislocated his shoulder. Gozo Shioda Sensei had to take ukemi for the rest of the demonstration.

but surely sayings like that must be in humor...i would like to think anyone who has made it to the level of teacher (not to mention O Sensei!) would have sufficient control of technique that s/he would not hurt their uke in the process...there is the occasional goof, uke's brain shuts down and he does death-wish ukemi, but short of a suicidal uke, wouldn't the teacher be able to control the situation?

Colleen read again above, I edited the post.
I think it depends on the moment. For example, if you think in atemi. You should feel and respect it even when it is only a possibility. Personally, as I am a beginner, I like to struggle and learn how and when I can be hit, so that I enhance my ukemi, attacking better and defending myself.

come on, think back to the first night (week, etc.) that your sensei threw you. your hot off the newbie block and have about 4 hours of ukemi practice under your belt. i think we were all a little scared when it first happened. not because of our teachers being abusive, but because it was all strange and new. we were afraid of being hurt, the pain, etc., but when we came out alright, we were better for it.

Originally posted by ca but surely sayings like that must be in humor...i would like to think anyone who has made it to the level of teacher (not to mention O Sensei!) would have sufficient control of technique that s/he would not hurt their uke in the process...there is the occasional goof, uke's brain shuts down and he does death-wish ukemi, but short of a suicidal uke, wouldn't the teacher be able to control the situation?

Morihei Ueshiba injured any number of his uke, both pre and post war. No one, no matter what their skills can control everything that's going on. While the skill level is usually higher when taking ukemi for your instructor, you also tend to be pushing things at a higher intensity, so it often evens out.

Best,

Chris

I'm not saying ukes don't get hurt, and from what i hear about Chiba Sensei's use of his ukes, my first sensei must have inhereited from him...but...
he also stressed, nearly every day that i recall, that uke gave nage a gift of his body in giving a good and sincere attack each time (so PRACTICE your ukemi) and maintained connection. AND that Aikido was Love, so nage had better respect that gift. So no, i was never afraid in taking ukemi from any student or teacher, and worked hard to get mine better so they'd throw me without worrying. I've been to other dojos that don't stress ukemi, and some of those students do seem afraid, so maybe what you say is why. If the uke's level is not up to a dramatic fall the instructor of course has the option to do something else; if he's attacking with force in the wrong direction to avoid getting hurt in one technique, the option remains. of course, nage must understand the technique enough to know what attack is called for, and how good his uke is, but if he's teaching....i would never think that my instructors were going to hurt me---and yes, i've ben caught off guard by atemi before, usually not since as a small female i'm used to getting out of the way of a fist approaching my body, but the worst thing it does is knock me down, i'm sure due to the intent and control of the instructor.
if you are afraid while attacking, your ukemi can suffer and i guess getting hurt can be self-fulfilling...
and Nacho, i just read your edit. I don't see that his uke was afraid, but rather altered his usual method of attack. i would think that this combined with O Sensei not feeling well and so perhaps his own timing and sensitivity to uke being off, may have combined to bring on the fall. It doesn't say how the shoulder dislocated, but i'd bet it was from uke's fall rather than the technique---from an uke who held back, did not commit to the attack.

Ive gotta say that I think that taking Ukemi is a skill and sometimes I am afraid that my skill is not up to the challenge. I can just see myself running my face into an elbow or something else as unyielding. Not to say that I dont try anyway, I'm just prepared to get injured sometimes.
Matt

in my experiance taking ukemi with my sensei it is usually better than taking it from someone who doesnt know how to throw. I fear being thrown by a New guy more than a higher ranked guy. In fact I love getting throw by a higher ranked person because when somone throw well ukemi is like doing no work at all.
Dan

I think that fear is perhaps more not fearing the action, but the outcome. People are not afraid of flying in an airplane, they're afraid of crashing in an airplane. People aren't afraid of guns, they're afraid of being shot. In the same manner, I feel that perhaps people aren't afraid of the fall, but that their reaction will not be right and they will be injured.

Cut off the worrying thoughts and everything's a lot easier!

Nick

Originally posted by Chris Li Morihei Ueshiba injured any number of his uke, both pre and post war. No one, no matter what their skills can control everything that's going on

I think the point in this story is more that in normal training you're not trying to kill uke. He felt that it would be wrong to demonstrate toned down techniques in the palace, because it was the palace.

I believe it was Gozo Shioda who said that after taking Ukemi from O Sensei at a demonstration, he had to stay in bed resting for three or four days to recover.

andrew