Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2003, 06:41 PM   #1
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Teaching Self Defense

If I was teaching Aikido primarily for self defense with reasonable competence in less than a year I would reduce the number of techniques to a select few and drill. What would those techniqes be and can jthe above be done.

My view is that yes it can and I would concentrate on the atemi waza of Shodokan, the idea of sen no sen timing and lot's of tsukuri drills.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2003, 08:04 PM   #2
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
This is from a beginners perspective.

In my view the best techniques to focus on at first for self defense would be the short varieties of irimi nage, shiho nage, short varieites of Kote gaeshi, maybe a few of the quick and easier kokyu nages and koshi nage.

What I find the most difficult are the techniques that requires uke to move off the line as nage is attacking like in Tenchinage. It must take many many years to know that nage is going to go for Ryoute dori and not somehing else. Techniques that work better in close to static situations I think are more useful for a beginner.

However, I think that the practice of these more difficult techniques must start early so that they will become effective over the years so that explains why all the advanced techniques are taught along side the beginning techniques.

I am not sure how you would teach the basic self defense techniques without hurting the growth of these other advanced techniques over the years.


Last edited by Michael Neal : 04-09-2003 at 08:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2003, 08:23 PM   #3
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
Your idea might work if you dedicated maybe 30 minutes to drilling in basic easy to use techniques and then the rest of tha class go into the standard syllabus. Or you could have 1 full class a week that focuses on the self defense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2003, 08:35 PM   #4
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
I do Aikido for the whole package - long term and short term and therefore really don't see myself dedicating six months to a year to produce a self defense "competent". I think I could and more to the point I could adjust according to overall need. More advanced techniques and all round Aikido more time required for that competent level in self defence. Still as an exercise - if you were going for the six months to a year time frame ....

I would stay clear of shihonage for sure and less time on kotegaishi. Seeing what works in Shiai these two are far from easy. The atemi waza that I mentioned are basically your short irimi nage - so we agree there.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2003, 09:24 PM   #5
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 245
Offline
Yeah, the Shodokan atemi waza seems like a good place to start...I can see where something like shomen ate would be easier to pull out of the hat. While we're on the subject of the 17 basic randori techniques, how does waki gatame and mae otoshi usually pan out in shiai? Two of my personal favorites...

Regards,
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2003, 10:00 PM   #6
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Wakegatame is one of those techniques which I almost always seem to have done to me but can't pull off myself with any regularity. Still it is a great technique from a self defense perspective when tossing away your attacker has its problems. It can be employed in a number of directions making it very useful when tanto (punch) is being withdrawn. Of course the big question is can you get hold of that arm.

Mae-otoshi, shihonage (tenkai kotegaeshi) and ushiro-ate (and by extention shime waza) all have a common mid point which is a great place to be if you can manage it. However, I can't help but feel that to get there requires the aggressor to unbalance themselves somewhat. With the exception of ushiro-ate (which can by-pass that mid point) I would not recommend these as primary techniques.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2003, 05:22 AM   #7
ian
 
ian's Avatar
Dojo: University of Ulster, Coleriane
Location: Northern Ireland
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,654
Offline
- katate dori nikkyo - easy to do and enables a quick escape

- tenchi-nage (with palm strike to chin/nose)

- kote-gaeshi (gets you out of way and always option to break wrist)

- ikkyo (especially from rear chokes - a very common attack on women).

- katate dori sankyo (going under arm rather than into ikkyo first- very simple)

- how to do a simple rear choke

- irimi-nage (with choke/neck break to finish)

strikes:

- yokomen uchi attack to neck (may need to develop strength for this)

- palm strike to nose/chin

- punch to jaw (vertical fist)

- punch to solar plexus(vertical fist/single knuckle)

- kick to groin/knee

body reactions:

-moving off centre-line

-tae-sebaki

- extension excercises (just extending against partner)

Most of these techniques can be effective very quickly, espcially if done viciously. Military self-defence tactics usually focus on striking the neck as hard and as many times as possible until they are down and then kicking them in the temple.

I feel it is a shame leaving sokumen irimi nage out since it is such a useful technique, however I think it can take some time to learn.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2003, 10:46 AM   #8
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
making killers

I would work on very aggressive bokken training for one year. Then, at the very end, teach only iriminage, shihonage and ikkyo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2003, 08:29 AM   #9
sanosuke
Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
Indonesia
Offline
i would suggest tai sabaki, very useful in avoiding attack and run simultaneously
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2003, 12:30 PM   #10
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
Offline
Certainly it is possible from a technique point of view; to enable a student to be mentally/psychologically prepared to defend him/herself is certainly possible as well. The critical thing in that aspect is for the student to learn confidence in himself and in the effectiveness of the technique.

As for techniques; I agree with the others. Short; quick, simple moves such as:

> Nikkyo (my personal favourite ), Katate-tori and katate-kosa-tori variations; static and dynamic.

> Sankyo, mune-tsuki, yokomenuchi and shomenuchi variations.

> Kote-oroshi.

> Udi-kiri-oroshi (Ridiculously easy; devilishly effective)

> DEFINITELY tae-sabaki, and lots of it.

> Dunno what it's called; but I find it nifty and effective in randori: Starts off like a kaiten-nage, then once you have uke bent over; switch to a sort of udi-kiri (hands at wrist and elbow)and drop him to the floor in the path of the next uke. (Dunno if that one has a name; but I'd teach it; if only to sponsor the creative thinking necessary for good self-defence.)

...And lots and lots of hitori-waza and Randori.

Interesting topic, Peter; thanx!

Dave

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2003, 09:30 PM   #11
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 245
Offline
Re: making killers

Quote:
Mike Lee (mike lee) wrote:
I would work on very aggressive bokken training for one year.
Interesting. Mike, is this so they'll be able to beat people up with a large stick, or is this for purposes of getting them to get their damn hands up and covering their centerline quickly? I'm genuinely curious as to what skill set you intend to develop with very aggressive bokken (bokuto ) training.

Good, useful set of comments so far. I'm quite keen on hearing from more aikido instructors who actually have had to instruct a useable set of aikido skills within a relatively short time. Please don't let this thread die...hell, I'll even throw in a free case of beer...

Regards,
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 01:46 AM   #12
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
the bokken: never leave home without it!

Quote:
Interesting. Mike, is this so they'll be able to beat people up with a large stick, or is this for purposes of getting them to get their damn hands up and covering their centerline quickly?
Both.

Also for footwork.

Although many beginning students may not be aware of it, the bokken is one of the best personal training tools we have.

In many cases, the bokken can be thought of as uke's arm. The cutting action is very similar to the motion used in ikkyo and shihonage. Thrusting actions are similar to iriminage.

Bokken training also strengthens wrists, arms and shoulders — developing ki in the practiioner.

Yes. Raising both arms quickly and strongly is one of the simplest and best self-defense measures we have in aikido. I've thrown a number of trained fighters (including the much over-rated boxer) with just such an action.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 03:17 AM   #13
happysod
Dojo: Kiburn, London, UK
Location: London
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 899
United Kingdom
Offline
Bit worried about the emphasis some have made on wrist techniques as an effective self-defence method in the short-term. The hand/wrist is a very small, fast moving target and can be easily missed. I prefer to keep the torso as the target area so I should end up with some body part as a useful lever even if my aim/attackers response meant I mucked up.

Specific techniques? If the time period you're considering is tight, just 2 - kokyu-nage and tenchi-nage from any attack you can come up with. Make them as direct and minimalist as possible, pointing out all the "soft-body" parts available for further persuasive argument (never used in out dojo of course - we're Ki )
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 03:40 AM   #14
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
the cart's before the horse

Once again, the question was about "reasonable competence in less than one year."

The trouble in aikido training is that people are barely competent in taking ukemi after 18 months of training. This single aspect absorbs a lot of time and attention for the student who may only train on average 3 hours per week — so in the interest of expediency (ideally), I would all but eliminate ukemi practice for the first year (with the exception of the back-fall), and concentrate entirely on movements that are basic, practical and immediately useful.

In addition, if one has only a limited amount of dojo time per week (say 3 hours), students could then take the innitiative by using the bokken training they learn and practice on their own for at least an hour a day at home or in a park.

The way most people traditionally learn at the beginning level, there's very little they can do on their own that leads to much benefit in so far as genuine self-defense.

Many schools don't even let students touch a bokken until students are shodan. It's truly a pity.

It's important to note that in the early days of aikido in Japan, most people already had some basic training in martial arts, including kendo. I don't believe that our current training methods in aikido account for the fact that 90% of new students have absolutely no previous martial-arts training. Today, we are producing black belts in aikido that still have no basic martial-arts skills. We've got the cart before the horse.

If I could train students my way for the first year, they would be far more skilled and competent than most shodan, although admittedly knowing far fewer techniques. The strength would be in the simplicity.
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 06:21 AM   #15
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,476
Offline
When I teach self-defense I use hardly any Aikido techniques. The length of the class I teach is ten weeks. I do focus on Aikido principles, expecially good posture, using strong voice and finding your center. The techniques I teach are much simpler, more devastating and don't require fine motor skills or a well developed center.

I find my training in SD an extension of my Aikido training. While I believe in least possible harm, I had to honestly evaulate my past as a woman and a survivor of rape and childhood abuse and find something that made me feel safer faster than Aikido could. This allowed me to relax into my Aikido training and become very strong as only long term training can do.

Mary

Mary Eastland

Dare to Tenkan
  Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2003, 06:35 AM   #16
Jason Tonks
Dojo: Bracknell Ellis School of Traditonal Aikido
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 71
Offline
Mike has raised some good points here. The both hands raised in the air very quickly is a very powerful technique that I've found leads very well straight into other techniques. I know from talking with my Sensei that the late master, Kenshiro Abbe Sensei emphasised this when he taught at the Hut. As Mike indicated, Bokken training is of immense value, emphasising correct posture, breathing, strengthening shoulders, wrists and arms. The other thing that Bokken training emphasises is the correct focused mindset of a warrior. There is a great picture of O'Sensei in posture holding a Bokken that says it all really.

All the best

Jason T
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Teaching Aikido to Children Workshop wmreed Seminars 2 09-06-2008 04:33 PM
What's your sensei teaching you? Robert Jackson General 29 06-13-2005 07:08 AM
Is aikido suitable for children. big old smiler Teaching 9 01-06-2005 05:00 PM
Self defense against what??? Yann Golanski General 11 08-26-2004 02:13 PM
The Telescope DaveO General 11 07-16-2004 09:11 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:46 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate