Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-11-2014, 07:17 PM   #51
JP3
 
JP3's Avatar
Dojo: Wasabi Dojo
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 290
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Any technique can be easily defeated by someone who knows it's coming. In the O/T case, the friend is motivated (doesn't really want to let it work so he can feel pain, I don't blaime him), so he's blocking it easily by stopping the wrist flexion. And, Janet's dead-on, kotegaeshi is more of a movement-based operation of accepting uke's balance and momentum in a direction, the extending it out past where he thought he was going to go, combined with a structural change he/she isn't prepared to deal with. All happens at the same time, fall down, go boom. If trained ukemi, looks awesome. If not trained, looks ugly and often leads to something being broken.

But, I agree, don't try to show outside of class if you are still trying to learn it. I was tol that Kotegaeshi is a "20-year technique." So, keep that in mind, too. Not easy to really "Do" in a real situation.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2014, 01:00 AM   #52
Asou
 
Asou's Avatar
Dojo: Shaniz Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 45
Indonesia
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

also, kotegaeshi has a certain set of pre-requisite move in order to take uke's balance. So, it's easier for us to twist their wrist.

and moreover, most of aikido techniques requires a flowing force from the opponent. If he's standing still, It will be hard.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2014, 09:36 AM   #53
Edgecrusher
 
Edgecrusher's Avatar
Dojo: Tampa, FL
Location: Tampa, Florida
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 86
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Very true but, that is when punching and kicking come into play. Just go at them like a hurricane of fists and teeth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2014, 05:12 AM   #54
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
also, kotegaeshi has a certain set of pre-requisite move in order to take uke's balance. So, it's easier for us to twist their wrist.

and moreover, most of aikido techniques requires a flowing force from the opponent. If he's standing still, It will be hard.
Various basic kotegaesi demonstrated by Nemoto sensei. Some of them start with no initial energy, e.g. katatedori and a few ushiro techniques

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js6TUS9vbuY

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2014, 09:37 AM   #55
JP3
 
JP3's Avatar
Dojo: Wasabi Dojo
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 290
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
also, kotegaeshi has a certain set of pre-requisite move in order to take uke's balance. So, it's easier for us to twist their wrist.

and moreover, most of aikido techniques requires a flowing force from the opponent. If he's standing still, It will be hard.
And... you know... if the guy is standing still, then he's not coming at you to do bad things, which means he's no threat, so the aikido - taking uke's force to return the energy back into him or have him pass it into an object or the ground - just doesn't apply.

And, generally, the techniques which start with uke stationary, and which are called aikido, typically begin with nage/tori initiating movement... and that movement is what is taken advantage of, right?

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2014, 12:34 PM   #56
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Static training has its uses, but it's a teaching tool, IMO, not a practical application. Out in the real world, attackers have energy.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 06:09 AM   #57
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Kenneth Hannah wrote: View Post
Very true but, that is when punching and kicking come into play. Just go at them like a hurricane of fists and teeth.
i hopes it's not "their fists" and "your teeth".

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 07:52 AM   #58
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Since it came up, I'll throw out 2 considerations:
1. Static training is the practice of moving in unison, regardless of what your partner is doing. The theory is the lack of a vector of force should allow nage to focus more on what she is supposed to be doing and less on what her partner is doing. The absence of force should not prevent movement.
2. The assigned role of nage (and uke) is to facilitate the education process, not pre-determine a winner. Ultimately, it is not relevant who "attacks" first, aside for the fact the the initiator statistically has a strong advantage.

In my experience, "real" attacks are actually going to feel more like a static attack... the premise being that your attacker is not going to over-extend her attack or give you a unique vector of energy, making the attack feel less like they are "giving you energy". Rather, a good component of the attack is going to be designed around veiling the attack itself. Just because you don't feel threatened doesn't mean there isn't a threat - it just means you can't feel the threat.

Keep it simple. Kotegaeshi is a common kata that gives us the opportunity for irrimi, tenkan, and affecting the body through a joint. The best ones I have felt neither required my participation, nor could I defend the movement. Don't mistake form for application; I would work very hard to prevent my partner from isolating my wrist if we were not practicing form.

For much of our training, our kansetsu waza is based upon pain compliance - at some point your partner needs to make a concessionary decision to preserve their safety. The problem is that sometimes that decision is a poor one, which places nage in a difficult position. If nage is correctly performing the technique, this kinda leaves only 2 options: nage abates and the technique "fails", nage continues and injuries uke. Neither feedback is desirable and what's worse, option one gives the impression the technique did not work, which is untrue .We used to distinguish between "exercising" our joints (resisting) and receiving an applied technique (kata).

Hooker sensei used to compare the unity of aiki to math. We need 100% aiki. If my partner gives me 50, then I need to do 50. If my partner gives me 90, I only need 10. If my partner gives me 10... Don't let static get to you, that just means you need to do 100% aiki.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 08:27 AM   #59
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
John Powell wrote: View Post
And... you know... if the guy is standing still, then he's not coming at you to do bad things, which means he's no threat, so the aikido - taking uke's force to return the energy back into him or have him pass it into an object or the ground - just doesn't apply.
Just to be clear that while the uke is still and balanced, he holds strongly (this is part of the uke's practice). The grip should be strong enough to make nage's initial moment difficult. This is the challenge that the nage has to work with.

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 01:45 PM   #60
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
If my partner gives me 90, I only need 10. If my partner gives me 10... Don't let static get to you, that just means you need to do 100% aiki.
Dude! just want to point out a bit of math error here. i blamed it on US education system for not preparing us for higher math functions like addition and subtraction. maybe the math in aikido just strange that defies certain logic, kinda like fuzzy logic. maybe someone (not moi) that is good with math and aikido can come up with new field of math: aikido math. it should have something along the line of 1 + 1 = 1

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 02:38 PM   #61
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
Dude! just want to point out a bit of math error here. i blamed it on US education system for not preparing us for higher math functions like addition and subtraction. maybe the math in aikido just strange that defies certain logic, kinda like fuzzy logic. maybe someone (not moi) that is good with math and aikido can come up with new field of math: aikido math. it should have something along the line of 1 + 1 = 1
I don't do math, I just use my handy-dandy Nine Halls Diagram. Stupid math.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 04:03 PM   #62
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Just to be clear that while the uke is still and balanced, he holds strongly (this is part of the uke's practice). The grip should be strong enough to make nage's initial moment difficult. This is the challenge that the nage has to work with.
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 04:20 PM   #63
Hilary
Dojo: Torrey Pines Aiki Kai
Location: San Diego
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 107
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

If your mechanics are bad a strong grip is a problem, if your mechanics are good, using the body, no power at the point of contact, aiki, then a strong grip, static or dynamic is your friend.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2014, 07:11 PM   #64
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 394
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?

Katherine
Nage messed up. That's the reason for practicing from a static position. Practicing this way also allows you to feel more of what is going on so that you can discover the technique as well as your flaws.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2014, 02:52 AM   #65
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?

Katherine
The training is as dynamic as you can make it, I you can move big strong uke from nothing, that's progress. The starting point is static in the case of katatedori, morotedori, katadori and other "doris". It is a laboratory setting where the partners can repeatedly and safely examine the forces in play, the various openings that may exist in their waza, the mental attitude, the appropriate ukemi etc...

I suppose many things can be said about "out in the world" application, just because it is something I read today, I'd quote that "violence is always unpredictable" http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2014/0...-tom-collings/

  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2014, 07:22 AM   #66
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South
Location: Johnson City, TN
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,209
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

I think the idea of the "dori" is to establish a demonstrable control over your partner. It's not really an "attack," but the control that precedes the attack. The aikido use of the "dori' is to the control without the attack, although technically the "attack" would not matter, hence the progression to omit it.

The notion that a static grip is somehow, "wrong" as a practical control is odd. At its base level, the attack is supposed to be a stimulus. If it is a poor attack (i.e. one that does not affect our partners), it should give us less trouble, not more. "Like most beginners, you attacked me wrong." It is possible that the nature of a grab can affect the manner in which you deal with the attack, but it should not affect your ability to deal with the attack.

The notion that a grab is avoidable is also false. The assumption of bodily control via a grab or clinch is a common and successful method in many combat arts. The principle we work on is not to the let the grab assume bodily control. This is often communicated with the "kuzushi on contact" mantra.

To go back to kotegaeshi. I trained for many years before I heard the best advice about my kata - "I'm not that good." You need a partner that is invested in your progress, not preserving her ego. Falling down is not the purpose of kata. Form is not the purpose of practical application. Don't confuse the two.

Jon Reading
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2014, 10:24 AM   #67
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
But this is static training. If we're practicing dynamically, or if we're out in the world, why did nage allow uke to get a strong grip in the first place?
Two points, echoing what Jon said.

First, static versus dynamic is a false dichotomy. The point can be expressed in innumerable ways: dynamic is in the static and static is in the dynamic. In-yo. Potential energy resolves to kinetic as kinetic resolves to potential. The orientation of a moment (rotational/torsional stress in a structure) lies in the same path of the resulting momentum when it is released and the stress (potential) becomes kinetic (motion)- and vice versa -- you can absorb/deflect kinetic through structure -- ("To a point, Lord Copper, to a point.") But quibbles aside, the distinctions of expression are -- Tomato::Tomahto.

Second, the grip is in the context of attack, It is premised on the assumption of the presence of a weapon or strike -- say, a grip to stop or delay the drawing of the sword or use of the knife -- or prevent atemi. Again, this is not static versus dynamic -- but to study using structure to defeat (or more usually moderate or better direct) a dynamic that is already present. Conversely, when the student's grip is ineffective or lacking, I illustrate with a tanto or wakizashi thrust -- and then the grip gets intuitively correct. At the same time, it is the building block -- or sandbox, if you will -- best used to observe means and effects of various orientations of stress and movement on structure, because when when things become more fluid -- the nature and form of connection to the attack becomes less fixed and obvious.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2014, 10:44 AM   #68
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,318
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

I pretty much agree with all of this.

My pushback on the idea of static technique is because, except at very high levels, static situations make it very easy for uke (consciously or unconciously) to subvert the goal of the training. Uke doesn't try to control the center, they just stand there. Or they adjust every time nage starts to get them moving. Or any of a number of things.

For advanced students, sure, that's part of the training. But pedagogically, static technique is often used to walk beginners through the "shape" of "foot goes here, hand goes here." Without careful explanation of what's going on, it very easily becomes a strength contest that beginners simply don't have the tools to win. So neither uke nor nage learns anything helpful. IMO, correct ukemi for static technique is even more difficult than good ukemi generally. It's easier for uke to "win" in a static situation, and it's hard for people to remember that "winning" isn't really the goal.

"Kuzushi on contact" is great, but that isn't what you're training if you stand there and wait to engage until uke grabs you. Rather, you're training how to recover from your failure to achieve kuzushi. Which is a useful skill, but doesn't teach much about timing, connecting before the moment of contact, and other skills that are essential in a dynamic encounter. In my experience, people who do a lot of static training are often not prepared to handle a dynamic situation: they're used to being able to take their time and "feel out" how to move uke.

Of course, people who do a lot of very dynamic training can find themselves unprepared to handle it if uke does actually manage to establish a solid grab. Any training method can be overused.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2014, 11:51 AM   #69
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 841
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I pretty much agree with all of this.

My pushback on the idea of static technique is because, except at very high levels, static situations make it very easy for uke (consciously or unconciously) to subvert the goal of the training. Uke doesn't try to control the center, they just stand there. Or they adjust every time nage starts to get them moving.
This is similar to the situation when uke jumps into a highfall for no good reason in "dynamic" training. In both cases the partners are denied the opportunity to learn anything. Needles to say that this is not
how, what we call kihon training, works.

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2016, 05:21 AM   #70
Cromwell
Dojo: North Sydney Aikido
Location: Sydney
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 21
Australia
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Let's remember that Kote Gaeshi is literally a forearm turn. It is not easy to do the traditional supinating wristlock (kotegaeshi) when it is a closed fist. A traditional open hand shomen (tegatana) attack yes very possible. A tightly closed fist not easy to do kote gaeshi.

However, if you concentrate the forearm rather than supinating wristlock, kotegaeshi becomes easier to apply. Please note, make sure you throw uke from his back foot, otherwise he can turn around and punch you when he is doing ukemi.

Have a look at Osensei's photo in this post. Also look at the videos of masters doing kote gaeshi.

http://goodaikido.com/kote-gaeshi-kotegaeshi/

Notice that they lock the forearm and they put the forearm behind uke rather than concentrating on the wristlock.

A smooth kotegaeshi executed without pain is a superior type of kotegaeshi. Don't rely on pain with kotegaeshi, you will just get a stiff and reactive uke that will stop your technique.

Always Good Aikido
Technique, Psychology and Strategy

http://goodaikido.com

http://www.northsydneyaikido.com.au//
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2016, 11:01 AM   #71
shuckser
Dojo: Brighton Aikikai, UK
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 59
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Cromwell Salvatera wrote: View Post
Let's remember that Kote Gaeshi is literally a forearm turn.
Just a couple of examples (in the same video) of this idea being nicely illustrated:

http://dai.ly/x2qm8o3?start=263
http://dai.ly/x2qm8o3?start=182
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 09:53 AM   #72
fatebass21
 
fatebass21's Avatar
Dojo: Westminster Tenshinkai Aikido Dojo
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 280
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
there should be new aikido student rule:

do not try what you learned in aikido on your friends, family, significant others, neighbors, pets, aliens from outer space, and/or others not listed here without your teacher(s) consent
I second this...

Chris Sawyer
Training day is every day
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 11:35 AM   #73
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,319
Japan
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Chris Sawyer wrote: View Post
I second this...
I would think aliens from outer space are fair game.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2017, 12:12 PM   #74
fatebass21
 
fatebass21's Avatar
Dojo: Westminster Tenshinkai Aikido Dojo
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 280
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I would think aliens from outer space are fair game.
Ok, ok, I can get on board with that...but...those aliens with wrists...

Chris Sawyer
Training day is every day
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2017, 08:58 AM   #75
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,944
United_States
Offline
Re: Kotegaeshi, help please

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I would think aliens from outer space are fair game.
wouldn't want to try it with the Cylon, not to mention the Borg which have been hanging out on various aiki threads saying that you can't resist and will be assimilated.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kotegaeshi: hand or wrist? Hanna B Techniques 32 09-29-2011 09:54 PM
Manage Kotegaeshi srdjan General 5 01-05-2009 07:26 AM
different ways of applying kotegaeshi Mike Hamer Techniques 47 01-09-2007 10:45 AM
Kotegaeshi as an expression of love dps General 28 08-30-2006 08:14 PM
Tsuki kotegaeshi (Fulcrum leverage) Benjie Lu Techniques 6 03-28-2004 08:21 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:09 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate