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Old 04-26-2009, 11:18 AM   #101
Location: Cortland, NY
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 985
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

George Jones wrote: View Post
..... no one does pure judo (or pure BJJ or pure boxing or pure aikido or pure anything) in MMA .....
I don't know if anyone does totally pure Aikido in Aikido. Many of the people I train with and under do other things and have done other things, including me. I work very hard to "compartmentalize" all the arts I do, partly out of respect and partly to keep my head from exploding. But I don't know if it can be helped; what's in your muscle memory is in there.

.... I just think much of the conflict between styles found in the net are artificial. I'll leave you in peace now.
I agree. You never see this in real life, with someone sticking his head in the dojo door to argue, do you? I haven't. In reality, people vote with their feet, staying away from what's not right for them.

But thanks for stopping by and don't be a stranger.

"I am not a big fat panda. I am the big fat panda." --Po, Kung Fu Panda
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:43 AM   #102
philippe willaume
philippe willaume's Avatar
Location: windsor
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 317
United Kingdom
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Minh Nguyen wrote: View Post
Thank you for your answer!
Since I will practice both arts simultaneously with the same amount of time, I think there may be a cross path. Do you think that I may mix techniques from Jujitsu in Aikido randori by any chance?
It really depends on what your Guv thinks about it. I would ask him directly. He is the on that may use you as a tatami cleaning implement (in Japanese, it is called UKE) for a session or two.
If your randori are kokuy based, it may be a bit un- sportsman like to put full technique, as the idea is to use the kokuy equivalent of a technique. (I.e. you are doing a kokyu throw but you could have done the corresponding full on technique).

If it is everything goes as an attack type of randory, then well anything goes in defense.

In any case I would select the people on which I do it as well, anyone with a skirt should be able to cope with it, bearing in mind age and body built that is.

According to the aikido and jj you are doing the point may be very moot anyway or may be you do have randori in jj as well so may be mixing and matching may be against what the coach/teacher is trying to get accross.

All that being said, Remember the aikido saying
"He who you snot hard, will snot you back harder when it is its turn"
It is a very aiki way to bring balance and harmony in the world.


One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 08-08-2010, 06:34 PM   #103
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 18
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Gracie JJ was just a cunning way to rebadge Judo newaza. If an Olympic Judoka focused on his newaza he would be equally match to the so called Gracie JJ (Judo) as seen by Yoshida in his matches with Gracie.
Rebadging martial arts and calling them your own is a good way to make money and start a school.
Gracie was great at what he did - for a guy as small as him to take on bigger fighters and win was amazing. Its not street self defense though to sandbag and wrap someone up on the pavement unless you want a kick in head.
Geoff Thompson is probably the best self defece specialist I have seen and he doesnt even involve martial arts at all in his talks.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:39 AM   #104
Dojo: Yoseikan Budo
Location: Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 96
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Alastair Bain wrote: View Post
Gracie JJ was just a cunning way to rebadge Judo newaza. If an Olympic Judoka focused on his newaza he would be equally match to the so called Gracie JJ (Judo) as seen by Yoshida in his matches with Gracie.
Rebadging martial arts and calling them your own is a good way to make money and start a school.
Gracie was great at what he did - for a guy as small as him to take on bigger fighters and win was amazing. Its not street self defense though to sandbag and wrap someone up on the pavement unless you want a kick in head.
Geoff Thompson is probably the best self defece specialist I have seen and he doesnt even involve martial arts at all in his talks.
Kinda sounds a little like Professor Kano, and those before him, and those before him...and...don't the Gracies all include Mitsuyo Maeda, a seventh Dan Kodokan teacher in their lineage?

I'm also pretty sure GJJ has a great deal of Nage waza along with Katame waza...

FWIW, Relson is very adamant on how important it is to stay on your feet in a self defense/street situation. It's something like; "Move your head, close the distance, get kuzushi, THROW, and then get out of there."

Why do people always insist GJJ or BJJ exclusively focus on Ne-waza?

Not trying to give you a hard time here, but why not try some personal, hands-on research?

Last edited by Stormcrow34 : 08-10-2010 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:25 AM   #105
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Wow, it has been a long time since this discussion took place. I have been on a hiatus from martial arts for several years since my son was born.

Looking back I think both my Aikido and Judo were at their best when I was training in both. I am trying to get back to Judo again and will probably go to Aikido again after I get my Judo Shodan. It will be a herculean effort due to the poor shape I am in so I will probably need to take BJJ as well to get enough training time a week in.

Aikido is definitely on the horizon again though because I see it as an advanced martial art, a place to fine tune advanced skills. Without other martial experience it is limited but it allows you take existing skills to a new level.
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Old 10-22-2010, 03:21 AM   #106
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 94
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

*** *** wrote: View Post
I just went ahead and took a class in the local Judo school.
I have no Judo experience. I have studied Aikido for 4 years.

It was a 2 hour class.
First we started with warmups which involved jogging around the mat, jogging around the mat backwards, sliding around the mat sideways, front rolls, backward rolls, that wheel thing that I cannot do, some stretches, 10 "Judo-pushups", a forward and backward "bridge" and other crap.

There was also a sort of a "punching sausagebag" which was put in the middle of the room vertically and we had to jump and roll over it. I did pretty well, asides from slightly tipping it in flight and knocking it over.

Then we had to crawl, then crawl while sitting and using the back part of the feet, and then crawl backwards sitting while using the uh... basically... butt movement.

Then there was the technique portion, where we practiced some takedown, then seionage (not shihonage!) and then how to do seionage when the first takedown fails.

Apparently in Judo resistance is encouraged and so I gave resistance, probably too much, just having Aikido posture and shifting weight/stepping away/turning knees when I felt disbalanced, and pretty much stopping the other guy's technique.
So I easened up on it a bit because I didn't want to be the analog of Aikido's "bad uke". The rules are fuzzy to me at this point.

I kept trying to do iriminage instead of grabbing the guy's collar behind his neck and I always kept letting go of my grab after the throw, which is wrong in Judo.
I was also not close enough initially.

In Judo you really feel the consequences of a sloppy technique. REALLY.

After techniques there was the randori session which I stayed out of.
Some guys were a tad too young and teenage-y angsty for my taste(had the whole "ya lookin' at me ? ill give you evil eye" syndrome going), and I was not sure my ukemi could handle their possible lack of emotional self-control.

Some guy explicitly explained to me the differences between martial art and a sport art, and that people really aren't rewarded for breaking wrists in sport competitions.

After the class was over, I came up to a guy who looked relatively sane and calm, and asked him to do a light randori session with me, if possible minus the super high falls.

I managed to throw him using seionage, to my surprise.

Then another guy who came in late and wasn't sweating much, decided to spar with me. I was already out of breath.
Initially I locked him into a sankyo, and I could've locked him down but I didn't want to risk breaking his wrist as he didn't know the ukemi.

Soon enough I just stopped trying because I was really tired, and just was mostly on the defensive as he kept using the same hip throw to land me on the floor.
I was too tired to figure out how to stop it.

The instructor, a former Judo champion from Soviet Union (where I migrated from too, coincidentally), seemed initially like a big contrast to a typical Aikido Sensei.
At the end of the children's class (before the class I attended) when he was making kids spar, he was yelling things like "You're disappointing me ! Don't laugh, fight ! Don't just stand there ! Don't let him just throw you ! Why are you crying ? Cry later, fight now !" etc etc.

But during the adult class I saw that he was a man with powerful technique but not the typical "Cobra Kai evil master".
He has self control and he is kind, just not so kind when students are slacking off.

At the end of my after-class sparring with that newly-appeared guy, I finally got slammed into the ground too fast and my tired reflexes didn't cushion the fall, so I got my air knocked out of me.
Even my voice changed a little for a minute...

The prior times I've been thrown by this guy, however, Aikido breakfalls have served me better than I anticipated.
The mats in the dojo are also harder than mats in my Aikido dojo.

At the end of class the instructor demonstrated to me that he also knows Aikido techniques. He has great respect for Aikido, and his opinion is that it is a fast and deadly art.
"On the street, I would not use Judo. I would use Aikido." he said, and then did an intense version of one of those Aikido "float uke up and throw" throws.

He also demonstrated katate tori kokyunage, katatetori ikkyo, etc, all very energetic and lightning fast.

He said, that Aikido needs Judo to work, basically. Aikido is the highest level art and it cannot work without Judo.
He's a good guy.

Now I'm sitting here with slightly shaky hands, bruised fingers and some bruises on my legs which will probably only show up tomorrow.

I really don't know what am I supposed to do here.

I went to try Judo to experience the feeling of real competition and I got it.

But in our Aikido class we have some ex-Judo people who got fed up with it.
I can sort of see how some things about Judo dojo can start eating at them after a while - probably a higher injury rate and in general non-peaceful, competitive atmosphere having to do something with it.

On the other hand Judo will allow me to learn things that are simple, proven to work, and effective.
Ugly, but effective against a single opponent.

This instructor guy has JuJitsu/Aikido/Tai Chi skills which are backed up practically by his competitive Judo skills. If he can make Tai Chi work against Mike Tyson, I wouldn't be surprised.

Blah. So that's that.
I have a feeling that I may need Judo to have strong Aikido.
On the other hand, I have a feeling that my recent jiyu-waza sessions in Aikido have been improving, and I've been really getting into the whole flowing thing.

Studying Judo at this point will not confuse me in technique and footwork but it MAY confuse my mind and prevent the "Aiki" mindset needed for Aikido techniques. Blah.

I would be really curious to hear what someone like Peter Rehse or someone else who crosstrains in Judo has to say about this... to help me clear my mind.
Most Judo Dojos around the world are sadly competition-oriented.
Even there is no one who competes, their mentality is still competitive. Judo training revolves around competition rules.
Whatever techniques works well (within the rules), regardless of the presence of "Ju" (Gentleness), is encouraged.
Most Judo techniques work well with physical strength. Physical strength is much easier to cultivate then the ability to yield to your opponent's force to use it against him in competitions or sparring.

Only many years after competitive Judo does a mature Judoka gradually begin to experience real "Ju" while training at his own leisure pace.

Speak to mature Judokas in their 60s or 70s. Observe how their Judo techniques have evolved from the aggressive & physical-strengthen dependent ways, to the softer, relaxed, yielding ways of "Ju".

This is what Judo should be. Sadly it would take at least 20 years of Judo training for most Judokas to discover this.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:19 AM   #107
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 188
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Are you familiar with the history of Judo? Competition was there from the start. I think what you are confused with is the idea of the Olympic ruleset which has narrowed Judo over time. Not all judo schools focus on that ruleset.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:30 PM   #108
JP3's Avatar
Dojo: Wasabi Dojo
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 291
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Noted-read this old thread, and wanted to drop my penny's worth of input.

Stormcrow wrote, "Why do people always insist GJJ or BJJ exclusively focus on Ne-waza??

I don't know, but I can say that at the three BJJ clubs I've trained at (about 3 years worth is all) - quite good naewaza players all - they did NOT want to stand up to start. Only guys who cross-trained would, as it wasn't foreign to them, and because it was foreign, it was unknown, and because it was unknown, it was feared.

Don't mistake me, I don't mean fear in the sense of running screaming and crying, nah. BJJ guys/girls doen't usually strike me as the shrinking violet type. Just the, "No, I don't want to do that, even if it is helpful" sort of thing. Apprehension is a better word, but that's just a synonym for fear with the volume knob turned down. That's my personal impression, and opinions vary - I understand that.

I would guess that, at these three schools, one of a few things happened or are happening: 1) the head teacher/instructor doesn't know his "take-downs" (throws) well enough to be comfortable with that instruction (not terribly likely, though I'm sure it does happen sometimes); 2) the student body sort of passively-aggressively avoids throwing waza; or 3) there's actually a bit of narrow-mindedness going on in those schools - they have PLENTY to learn just on the ground. Naewaza can become it's own universe, if people let it be so. Problem is, fights usually start upright, right? Even competitions in BJJ, the opponents start standing up. So, at good schools, they work through the entire match, from tanding apart to the finishing spectrum.

As to the original post, I'm of the opinion that some serious and long-term training in a good, not totally competition directed (meaning going to tournaments on a regular gbasis) judo school is only helpful to aikido competence. For one thing, the judo throws can be very quick, and the tori can, but usually does not in friendly practice, control uke while falling so that they either do, or do NOT, fall properly. High-level skill, I get that, but very effective if one wished to hurt an attacker, yes?

Judo, in mindset at the schools I've trained at for the past two decades, is inherently competitive, as the "rules" are set up as a sport, points for this and that, disqualification/penalties for doing this or that "illegal" technique. Mind you, even if you are not at a tournament, and you are watching the old, gentle guys doing randori, there is an aspect of competition there. It IS supposed to be fun, some people seem to lose that in the drive to Win.

There is much worth in the checking of one's competence against someone else, as long as both have a good time, gain from the experience, and nobody gets hurt in practice. The original post's Russian judo instructor, while working with the kids' class, sounded just like any other "Coach," in that terms usual meaning, i.e. football, basketball, wrestling, drill instructor, etc. A person who sees his/her job as to get people to do things which they themselves do not think themselves capable. Specifically with kids, motivation can't really be on the adult level to get maximum response from the kids except in the rare circumstance of the very mature athletic child. Most kids need the push to get the most from them .... otherwise we would not HAVE coaches, there'd just be football Teachers. IMO.

Judo is great for me as a competitive outlet, even when playing very light, almost no resistance randori - move here, turn there, pull this/that, wait for technique to arrive... or not, don't force things, and see who can manipulate the chaos the better. It is fun. And, being inside that chaos in a controlled set of conditions, and in a comfortable place to learn, is translatable into the street defense situation. Has been for me.

Ok, all done.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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