Ukemi makes you (feel) tougher...

I remember wen I was starting out with the art I had this feeling that as I become better in Ukemi ---- I become better in Aikido ---- I become better as a martial artist ---- I become tougher...

(In retrospect) I feel that a lot of the other guys whom I trained with feels that way...some of them acted brash (yes, because they can do good ukemi). They feel superior because they can do breakfalls on the mat, on wood and some even on cement flooring (these guys had the biggest egos)

Does any of you ever felt/observed the same thing?

One-Aiki,

Iking

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: I remember wen I was starting out with the art I had this feeling that as I become better in Ukemi ---- I become better in Aikido ---- I become better as a martial artist ---- I become tougher... (In retrospect) I feel that a lot of the other guys whom I trained with feels that way...some of them acted brash (yes, because they can do good ukemi). They feel superior because they can do breakfalls on the mat, on wood and some even on cement flooring (these guys had the biggest egos) Does any of you ever felt/observed the same thing? One-Aiki, Iking

Not sure about the ego thing, but uke who are good in ukemi means I as tori is able to slam them harder and train in a more robust, more randori' esque manner. I.e., I need not hold back my techniques because I know they can take care of themselves.

Ability of doing ukemi on hard surface has no advantages during jiyu waza/randori.

Boon.

I wouldn't agree really, If anything, they make you less tough because you're not getting at all hurt when you fall!

improving my ukemi was the thing that started to get me going in aikido, it's all in the relaxation I think. When I was a white belt, I was the classic plank of wood, but my ukemi improved and once I learned that I won't get hurt, my whole body relaxed more and from then I could actually start learning something.

Though I still get a bit tense at inappropriate times which makes my technique suffer, have to keep working on it!

It doesn't necessarily make me "tougher" but I like the feeling to be able to cope better when receiving my sempai or sensei's techniques without giving away my body integrity. That also leads to my growing sense of strange enjoyment of receiving techniques as well (so I enjoy both sides of training).

I'd still like to improve my ukemi to the point that I'm almost an indestructible rubber ball though

It only makes my body feel tougher because all of that ukemi really tones up my body and makes it stronger. Even though I try to be as light as possible, the constant pounding really works on my whole body.

'Tougher' would not be the word I choose.

I would say I was 'tenderized . On the mat, to my friends, and to my own heart.

Good combo for a 'tough girl'.

I wouldn't say I feel tougher since I started Aikido, I am aware that I probably am tougher though. I've seen myself improve, I'm aware of what I can handle and it gives me confidence.
Even when I'm in serious pain and I'm tired and I just want to lay on the mat and die I can pick myself up and attack, sounds pretty tough, but to me it's just training.

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: I remember wen I was starting out with the art I had this feeling that as I become better in Ukemi ---- I become better in Aikido ---- I become better as a martial artist ---- I become tougher... (In retrospect) I feel that a lot of the other guys whom I trained with feels that way...some of them acted brash (yes, because they can do good ukemi). They feel superior because they can do breakfalls on the mat, on wood and some even on cement flooring (these guys had the biggest egos) Does any of you ever felt/observed the same thing? One-Aiki, Iking

When I was young and beautiful aikido beginner I was fascinated with high flying break falls. Some of my friends were really good, they could do it on the wood and concrete - not because of egos, but in those times, it was difficult to have tatami in the dojo. I learned slowly, and finally I could also do it.
Then I started wondering, what is the real reason to repeat it hundred times/hour, again and again, many years. Now I think if it is well taught, it will be the main tool to develop flexible and powerful body.

I don't think that doing only aikido techniques as a nage will produce such result. Even doing rolls forward and backward is not enough. Nage must smash you with all his power regularly to unify you with tatami. Then, as by miracle, your body will transform itself. You need such external stimulus that you can't control. So the brain will work very hard to find the best way to protect the body against a pain and danger. After the thousands and thousands of tray/fail experiences, your body will become conditioned in very special way -- instead of tension, the muscles will extend. Whole body will relax and become flexible, and in the same time, will be able to generate a lot of power.

Even now, when I stop practice for vacation, first class is difficult; I need about 50 high flying break falls to regenerate the same body state.

It's not good ukemi until you can survive O Soto Makikomi where the guy who out weighs you by 100 pounds lands with his elbow right on your throat.

Get up from that and you have good ukemi.

I actually thought I knew how to fall until my first judo class. I realized at that point that I knew how to throw myself to the ground or make myself roll. It took me a few years to learn how to fall. Never thought it made me tough, but new people think it makes you insane. When I teach falls, I show them on the ground, from the knees, etc. Then I show them their ultimate goal, I get the sensei or someone else to throw me with harai or some other huge throw as hard as possible makikomi. I actually had a few people just decide then and there that judo wasn't for them.

Don Magee wrote: It's not good ukemi until you can survive O Soto Makikomi where the guy who out weighs you by 100 pounds lands with his elbow right on your throat. I actually thought I knew how to fall until my first judo class. I realized at that point that I knew how to throw myself to the ground or make myself roll.

Same thing happened to me. It is really different when someone drives you onto the mat. I almost broke a clavicle when I was first thrown by a judoka...

One-Aiki,

Iking

Enrique Antonio Reyes wrote: Same thing happened to me. It is really different when someone drives you onto the mat. I almost broke a clavicle when I was first thrown by a judoka... One-Aiki, Iking

I have broken my clavicle ( actually both) from koshi-nage, in aikido. It all depends on when and where you train as to the power,strength and effectiveness of aiki-waza.

When one's Ukemi is a proper Ukemi, than he can free himself from thoughts of pain and misdirection and truly enjoy the freedom of divine techniques.

Shany Golan wrote: When one's Ukemi is a proper Ukemi, than he can free himself from thoughts of pain and misdirection and truly enjoy the freedom of divine techniques.

Well said! Practicing ukemi on concrete seemed to have something of the magic touch when I was trying to get real good at rolls and breakfalls...no high falls done there though .

Jennifer Smith wrote: I have broken my clavicle ( actually both) from koshi-nage, in aikido. It all depends on when and where you train as to the power,strength and effectiveness of aiki-waza.

My wife broke her collar bone just trying to learn how to roll in aikido.

Don Magee wrote: My wife broke her collar bone just trying to learn how to roll in aikido.

Hi Don,
I made it squarely past extra-beginner stage(5th kyu) with only a severly torn rotator cuff from suwari waza sutemi. Oh, the old days .The training we did back then. was, generally,harder then the training I'm seeing now. And the snow was deeper, especially without shoes.

It was around brown belt that the koshi's started flying. clavicle 1.
Then at shodan the hakama went on and a-blammo. clavical 2.

Hope your wife kept on with the keepin' on.

Best,
j

Don Magee wrote: It's not good ukemi until you can survive O Soto Makikomi where the guy who out weighs you by 100 pounds lands with his elbow right on your throat. Get up from that and you have good ukemi. I actually thought I knew how to fall until my first judo class. I realized at that point that I knew how to throw myself to the ground or make myself roll. It took me a few years to learn how to fall. Never thought it made me tough, but new people think it makes you insane. When I teach falls, I show them on the ground, from the knees, etc. Then I show them their ultimate goal, I get the sensei or someone else to throw me with harai or some other huge throw as hard as possible makikomi. I actually had a few people just decide then and there that judo wasn't for them.

I went the other way - 8 years of judo, 13 years away, started Aikido. Now 15 years of Aikido. Find that pure Aikido people complain when I throw because (despite not intending) there's still a bit of "finish" in my throwing. Also find that when I bump into younger Aiki folk who have a judo background, the throws have a bit more umph to them and the attention level has to go up a notch or two...
Cheers,
W

Jennifer Smith wrote: Hi Don, I made it squarely past extra-beginner stage(5th kyu) with only a severly torn rotator cuff from suwari waza sutemi. Oh, the old days .The training we did back then. was, generally,harder then the training I'm seeing now. And the snow was deeper, especially without shoes. It was around brown belt that the koshi's started flying. clavicle 1. Then at shodan the hakama went on and a-blammo. clavical 2. Hope your wife kept on with the keepin' on. Best, j

Actually she quit and got into kickboxing. To this day she refuses to do anything that requires falling down.

I don't know...I've had a few people tell me "oh, your ukemi is so good"...if it's soo good, how come my neck is such a mess!?!?

At the same time, I do in fact really enjoy taking falls. Go figure...

Best,
Ron (masochist forever, i guess)

Ron Tisdale wrote: I don't know...I've had a few people tell me "oh, your ukemi is so good"...if it's soo good, how come my neck is such a mess!?!? At the same time, I do in fact really enjoy taking falls. Go figure... Best, Ron (masochist forever, i guess)

Most people tend to do Ukemi without proper roll and rolling right on the spine and neck, Does your neck hurts probably because you don't use your shoulder as the main impact point?

Dude, I try not to land anywhere NEAR my shoulders, upper back, or neck.

Seriously for a second, my neck hurts because of several herniated discs...

Impact point??? We don't want no "impact points"... Light as a feather, I say...

At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

Best,
Ron (not looking for advice, just lamenting the sad state of my aging body.. )

hehehehheeh, than who ever throw you with a technique has to wait forever for you to do ukemi??

The falls I'm refering to are somewhat like this:

http://www.aikiweb.net/videos/ukemi/softbreakfall1.mpg

http://www.aikiweb.net/videos/ukemi/softbreakfall2.mpg

But I (of course) am no where near as svelt, handsome and athletic as the good fellow demonstrating...

Best,
Ron (my ukemi isn't as good either....)

My falls consist of hold on, exhale, tuck chin, make sure I hold on and take them with me, then KNEE BAR!!!

Don Magee wrote: then KNEE BAR!!!

Over the years, I have heard a lot of names for our manlyhood.
But it is the first time someone calls it a bar.
Although the people you are kneeling might be honored you call it that way.

Dieter Haffner wrote: Over the years, I have heard a lot of names for our manlyhood. But it is the first time someone calls it a bar. Although the people you are kneeling might be honored you call it that way.

I may be mistaken but I think what Don meant about "Kneebar" is applying a leg lock on his uke more specifically on the knee. This usually happens in bjj or submission grappling...hurts quite a lot too...at least you can tap tho...unlike when doing a break fall...

One-Aiki,

Iking