Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > AikiWeb System

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-15-2002, 12:01 AM   #1
AikiWeb System
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,320
Offline
AikiWeb Poll for the week of December 15, 2002:

Is aikido violent?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Yes
  • No
Here are the current results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 05:57 AM   #2
mike lee
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 646
Offline
Aikido is never violent — but I am.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 06:24 AM   #3
jaxonbrown
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 50
Offline
no. violence only comes from passion. no passion or emotion means no 'violence'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 08:15 AM   #4
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
In the present form of teaching and practice Aikido is not violent.

There is the capacity to be violent with exteme predjudice ... but most of us keep that in our back pocket as we practice.

Mike Lee ... my mommy says not to play with you, you are too mean!

It took a few minute for me to compose myself after reading your post ... it totally left me helpless with laughter, good one.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 10:24 AM   #5
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
It's all in your mind Mike...

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 10:26 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
United_States
Offline
IMHO, Aikido is non-violent, but people can be. Especially if they are filled with pain, fear, and ignorance.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 11:30 AM   #7
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
Offline
Quote:
Jaxon Brown (jaxonbrown) wrote:
no. violence only comes from passion. no passion or emotion means no 'violence'.
A sociopath would likely not feel much or any emotion or passion, but still use great violence to achieve a goal. So, yes there is "passionless violence." Sociopaths aren't "non-violent," they just don't give a crap about the consequence of there actions.

To me, Aikido fully recognizes its violent nature. Both uke and nage focus there practice on finding ways to avoid harm amid violence. The net result can be an extremely violent confrontation, but no harm, both on the attack and defense.

In the first month of study, I learned all sorts of things that could readily be used to harm or kill another. However, I do not study Aikido to make these techniques more deadly or dangerous. Instead, I study to make them more effective. The windows of opportunity created by my technique get larger and the need to harm an attacker in order to survive likewise diminishes.

Someone snapped a photo of me being thrown once. The throw was a completely routine exercise in ukemi and while it was a "cool" throw, I thought little of it. After class, my friend showed me the picture on the screen of his camera and I was shocked to see myself inverted and flying through the air.

Is that violence?

No, not really, but only because I was among friends who wished me no harm.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 12:41 PM   #8
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
I am I mistaken or mislead, or was the art of Aikido founded as a way of non-violence?
I thought the O-sensei quote was:

"Aikido is non-violence."

Of course this idea as much as any other is subject to the inevitable cultural spiral of semantic re-digestion into alternative definitions and stuff, but how can 35-or-so years bring this much change (over 25% say aikido is violent)?
Or are people in this world not ready for non-violence?

--JW
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 03:48 PM   #9
DaveO
Dojo: Great Wave Aikido
Location: Alberta, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 543
Canada
Offline
In my opinion, Aikido is a tool, not in itself violent, but capable of being used for violence. Given the circumstances, one can use Aikido in a non-violent way, i.e. to tenkan past an attacker and out of his range, or in a violent way, i.e. using kaitenage to drop him forcefully on his head - a potentially fatal technique.

So, Aikido in itself is not violent, but one can use it for violence if one chooses.

Answers are only easy when they're incomplete.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 05:39 PM   #10
mattholmes
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 40
Offline
I think any method or system for teaching has to be somewhat artificial. Probably this is the same for Aikido. I think Aikido, as a way to become in harmony with the universe, is not violent. However, I think the physical techniques practiced in dojo could be characterized as violent. For me, it's this paradox that makes training interesting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 06:15 PM   #11
YEME
Dojo: South West Aiki
Location: Margaret River
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
Offline
its not the product, its the end user.

Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
--Isaac Asimov

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2002, 11:15 PM   #12
Mr. P
 
Mr. P's Avatar
Dojo: BMS Aïkido
Location: Drancy (FRANCE)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 31
Offline
IMHO, Aïkido contains what you want.

It can be violent when you're filled by fear and anger. I practiced once while I was full of frustration . All that I remember is my friends saying : "Ouch ! What has he just eat ?!"
I was simply scaring them .

It can be practiced softly and calmly. I remember when I first practice with my senseï. I hit as hard and as fast as I could, but (it make me shy ) I was never able to touch him. It was like punching water.
After all, power is you could surely break your enemy but you don't.

I think a (good) aïkidoist is a mirror of his (her) enemy. If the enemy is violent, he would suffer his own violence. If the enemy is non-violent, he would suffer nothing because I don't see why I'd fight with him .

I know it's like playing words but I think Aïkido can be violent. I voted it was not because its goal is to make peace ...

Last edited by Mr. P : 12-15-2002 at 11:21 PM.

Mr. P

Never pay attention to someone using smileys...
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 06:48 AM   #13
REK
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
Offline
Aikido is never violent-- but I am.

Its not the product, its the end user.

Aikido is a tool.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Are people in this world not ready for non-violence? -- Our species is not capable of universal non-violence.

________________________
Mors certa, hora incerta
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 09:10 AM   #14
MikeE
 
MikeE's Avatar
Dojo: Midwest Center For Movement & Aikido Bukou Dojos
Location: Hudson, WI
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 407
Offline
I like to think that any "violence" in Aikido is wrought upon the attacker by the intesity and voracity of their attack.

What the attacker puts into it, is what they get back. (Very Karma-ish)

In Aiki,

Mike Ellefson
Midwest Center
For Movement &
Aikido Bukou
Dojos
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 12:49 PM   #15
bogglefreak20
Dojo: Ki dojo
Location: Ljubljana
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 102
Slovenia
Offline
Aikido, as I understand it, is in it's heart a non-violent art (I ommit the word "martial" consciously). Violence, however, has become a part of some schools, that claim to teach so-called "real-life" Aikido. I'm referring to a dojo in my country, not to dojos outside Slovenia - I have no intention of insulting anyone (feel free to comment, anyway).

The sensei at this particular dojo used to train in the dojo I'm currently visiting, got to 3. kyu, didn't manage to brake the wall of relaxation, hence quit, gave himself the rank of master nad started teaching something that can at best be described street-fighting. I don't mean to criticise, but would like to hear your coments on the subject.

Personaly I regret that a fine art like Aikido has to suffer such unwanted, unnecessary and arbitrary modifications.

With respect to Aikidoka around the world,

Miha
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 02:59 PM   #16
Williamross77
 
Williamross77's Avatar
Dojo: aikido of shreveport
Location: Shreveport, Lousiana
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 146
United_States
Offline
I would leave the Dojo imediately unless you want to learn his "art" which only HE is a master of.. sounds scarry to me...

but hey it's a free country "i think" and if people like it who's to say, but if you want Aikido, even practice at the lowest level with kyu ranks is still preferable to a class of free for all street tactics with no KI principles.

in Aiki
Agatsu!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 03:11 PM   #17
Thalib
 
Thalib's Avatar
Dojo: 合気研究会
Location: Jakarta Selatan
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 504
Indonesia
Offline
Miha Sinkovec-san, your story has many similarities with my country and with many martial arts within my country.

Especially after all those mixed martial art competitions started entering the scene, a lot of people here wanted quick fixes to be a master. Makes me sad sometimes.

When I have to die by the sword, I will do so with honor.
--------
http://funkybuddha.multiply.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 03:20 PM   #18
diesel
Dojo: Tenshin
Location: Higashihiroshima
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 106
Japan
Offline
Merriam Webster:

1 a : exertion of physical force so as to injure or abuse (as in effecting illegal entry into a house) b : an instance of violent treatment or procedure

2 : injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation : OUTRAGE

3 a : intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force <the violence of the storm> b : vehement feeling or expression : FERVOR; also : an instance of such action or feeling c : a clashing or jarring quality : DISCORDANCE

4 : undue alteration (as of wording or sense in editing a text)

By the merriam webster defination I would probaly say no. We are using force to not injure or abuse our attacker. But.. I'll pose this.. O'Sensei said Aikido is 90% atemi, 10% technique.

Is atemi violent? A punch to the jaw, a strike to the wrist to deflect a punch, a shihonage to redirect a beer bottle from a shomen. Your definition of violence vs my definition of violence. I think we also see this between different styles of aikido.

Here is the way I interpret aikido. Aikido is the art of peace. You cannot have peace without violence. Yin and yang.

By redirecting aiki in attacks, we are being violent. But we are hopefully taking out opponent to a point where he is subdued without us having to break him. Leading to a not as violent end to the situation.

My .02.

Cheers,

Eric
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 06:25 PM   #19
Bryant Pierpont
Dojo: Yoshinkan Hombu Dojo
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 12
Japan
Offline
IMHO, Aikido is controlled violence. One cannot throw another to the ground and not see it as a violent act. However, done in aiki, we stop the violent act of an aggressor by using controlled force/violence and (in a perfect world), no one is injured.

Bryant Pierpont
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 06:49 PM   #20
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
Now I see why O-sensei was sad that "nobody was following his aikido."

The question was not whether you are violent or whether the skills you learn in aikido class allow you to do violence.
The question was "is aikido violent."

Fortunately as long as the techniques of the art of aikido are transmitted the way they were intended (and it seems this IS currently the case most of the time, from what I've seen), then Ueshiba's message is still alive. I hope it survives long enough.
--JW

ps:
Within the constraints of the medium (interaction of people in a physical conflict in which all but one intend to hurt the target) of this art, aikido completely embodies non-violence. Atemi is not an excuse for violent attacks and throwing and pinning are NOT violent, considering that to do aikido throws and pins you have to pass up the opportunnity to really destroy the uke..
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2002, 11:03 PM   #21
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Is a hammer violent?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 01:04 AM   #22
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
Quote:
Bronson Diffin (Bronson) wrote:
Is a hammer violent?

Bronson
Aikido is not a tool, it's a philosophy, a way of human interaction, and an artistic system of expression. It's not something you use--it's a way to follow.

I've always liked your sig quote. I thought you would agree that aikido encourages and teaches how to choose non-violence.
--JW

Last edited by JW : 12-17-2002 at 01:07 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 01:30 AM   #23
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Quote:
I thought you would agree that aikido encourages and teaches how to choose non-violence.
I do. I also like how it offers me the ability to be decidely violent...IF I SO CHOOSE.
Quote:
Aikido is not a tool, it's a philosophy, a way of human interaction, and an artistic system of expression. It's not something you use--it's a way to follow.
To be quite honest I don't see the difference. A philosophy is a tool to help you live your life the way you choose. Dance is a system of artistic expression and I would say that dancing is a dancer's tool for expressing themselves...same with aikido. As for the way, I feel that what I study isn't nearly as important as how I study it. I feel that the benefits of deep, intense study can be had by studying just about anything...deeply and intently. I choose aikido, other choose tai chi, or calligraphy, or dance, or karate....these are then the tools that are used to follow the way.

I really think we agree on this we just choose to use different words (tools) to express it. I still stand by my hammer analogy though. A hammer can be used to build low cost housing or a baby's crib. It can also be used to smash someone's head in. In the end it's the intent of the person wielding the hammer that's important.

Oh well, it's late and I'm rambling

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 02:13 AM   #24
JW
 
JW's Avatar
Location: San Diego CA USA
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 561
Offline
I understand what you mean about the hammer. The reason I disagree is that I think that a way is different than a tool.

A spoon is a kitchen tool. A style of cooking, which could be described in a book and practiced in lots of kitchens around the world, is an art. Lets say the style of cooking happens to be a way of making cakes. Then somebody posts on cakeweb forums "is our way a way of making pasta?" Well a good cake maker may make a great lasagna if he uses lasagna stuff instead of cake stuff, but so what--he has ceased to practice cake-waza. He is off on his own, using well-refined skills do something that is not cake making.

Aikido is how to resolve conflict in the LEAST damaging way possible. This is the OPPOSITE of violence. If you choose to unnecessarily pound someone out of malice, then you are NOT doing aikido--I don't care how much it looks like any aikido technique.

"Aikido is non-violence" and "aikido is the manifestation of love" cannot describe a simple tool--they describe a way of thinking and a way of feeling. In this way of thinking, violence is the enemy.
--JW
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2002, 03:32 AM   #25
aikilouis
Location: Germany
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 219
France
Offline
Aikido is the transformation of violence into peace. The opponent has a hostile intention, and wants to use violent ways (smashing your head, for ex.) to achieve his goal. The accomplished aikidoka does not oppose his own strength to his adversary's. He attracts him to guide him "softly" to a situation where violence will not be of any use (pinned by ikkyo, for ex.) and where he will have to give up his initial intention and to relax.

IMHO, Aikido is not a tool, because a tool does not transform its user : it just serves his purpose regardless of his ethical value. On the contrary Aikido is a philosophy of mind and body, and brings the practitioner to reconsider his ways and reasons of acting (ethics) towards non-violence.

  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mixing Aikido with other martial arts Guilty Spark General 146 05-04-2008 10:10 AM
Women and Everybody Else in Aikido George S. Ledyard Teaching 113 03-16-2008 07:27 PM
Dilution of aikido eugene_lo General 40 02-07-2006 11:22 AM
Poll: Do you prefer your aikido rank tests announced (planned) or unannounced (surprise)? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 15 12-09-2004 04:19 PM
Poll: How important is running an aikido dojo as a business? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 21 11-08-2004 12:37 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:46 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate