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Old 05-31-2010, 10:04 PM   #26
OwlMatt
 
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Who cares what other people think of Aikido?

Why would you even be concerned?

David
I agree with this sentiment in principle, but I think there is a danger in thinking this way. If we are too quick to dismiss aikido's critics, we might leave some very important questions unanswered. Is our aikido really martial art? There are a lot of people out there who don't think so. We can blow them off if we want, but until we have extensively examined that question and honestly answered it for ourselves, dismissing this kind of criticism is a manifestation of insecurity and not security.
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:19 PM   #27
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

I think that Aikido is misunderstood in the world of Aikido, much less the wider world of martial arts. The word is used to describe training methodologies that differ quite significantly depending on how one traces ones lineage back to Ueshiba M.

Quote:
Yes it is misunderstood. We refuse to communicate with the rest of the world or even take notice of it, we don't do our own talking; we let people with no experience of Aikido tell the world about Aikido. It's hardly suprising that we have the reputation we have; it's what comes of refusing to harmonise with the situation: conflict, confusion and ignorance.
I think Alex has a very valid point here. Over the years of training in all sorts of multi-style seminars I often see a recurring trend - there are 2 types of Aikidoka that show up (and this applies to some other Budo as well) - those who have faith in their abilities and are honestly willing to learn - and those who do not have faith in their abilities and who would really rather return to the safe environment of their home dojo.

The ones who do not are rarely seen outside of seminars of their own style or own dojo. They are quite insular and unwilling to interact with other groups who have no ill intent but just want to train honestly. In a real sense these groups train daily in a shared illusion at their dojo and do not want to endanger that illusion by exposing themselves to others outside their dojo and/or style who might start critiquing what they do. Their idea of sharing is for the outsider to drink the kool aid and share in the illusion.

Then you have those who actually have some skill and have the confidence to not be afraid of practicing outside their paradigm and sometimes risk being schooled by someone else - they train all over the place and though they may not be masters, they give an honest impression of what their training is all about because they explain only what they understand and leave the rest to others who are more qualified.

Sadly, for a lot of Budo where there is an empty handed aspect, there will be questions surrounding effectiveness of technique etc. (i.e. how does that strike/throw/lock work). The question is a valid one since in Aikido we go about throwing around each other and locking joints - it looks good, so others want to know if it really works that way. Here is where the problem in communication starts as many have no idea why techniques work because they've never really executed a technique that has worked without the total collusion of their partner. Communication and sharing with someone from outside your paradigm often goes downhill from there in my experience.

In some sense many Aikido practitioners do not understand the jutsu or martial science behind what they do. As a result they misunderstand their own training, spreading that to others who know even less.

Just some thoughts.

LC

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Old 06-01-2010, 01:38 AM   #28
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

It's Bullshido. They misunderstand EVERY martial art. To them, if it's not MMA then not only is it not for them but it's not for anyone.

Frankly, I don't pay attention to posts from that site anymore. Sure, there's some good stuff but it takes too long to sift through the dirt.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:35 AM   #29
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Hi
Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
In the end I think Aikido is about self mastery. I don't care if you do water colours, Aikido, BJJ or ballet. Everyone needs something that feeds their spirit. It's not about beating others, it should be about beating yourself.
If you do water colors, you learn to be able to "paint a picture". If you do ballet, you learn to be able to dance.

What do you learn when you do aikido?
Is the martial aspect, the budo-side of aikido really not important for you?

And can you achieve true self-mastery through aikido, in the case it will only work if done with other aikidoka and not if practiced with people of other MA?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Aikido is a very large umbrella in much regards, but It looks like some sort of Jujitsu.
I don't like this video. but:
Isn't aikido one particular sort of jujutsu? How do you distinguish between them?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I think there is technically a real calling in Aikido to spread the art.
???
What do you mean by this point?

Greetings, Carsten
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:02 AM   #30
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Greg Maroda wrote: View Post
It's Bullshido. They misunderstand EVERY martial art. To them, if it's not MMA then not only is it not for them but it's not for anyone.

Frankly, I don't pay attention to posts from that site anymore. Sure, there's some good stuff but it takes too long to sift through the dirt.
I wouldn't say that. I'd say there are two groups of people on bullshido.

1) Young people new to the martial arts who are trying to feel good about their choices. AKA just there to rip on anything that's not the flavor of the week.

2) People with scientific minds who believe strongly in result based training. These people read a lot of the crap many 'traditional' martial artists post on bullshido and simple become so jaded they can't help anymore and instead just insult you.

I'm probably in that number two category. I used to care and try to help people past the mistakes I feel I made. Now I realize it doesn't matter. I could introduce a 100 people to proper training methods (in my opinion) and a 1000 more would be signed up at the local ATA the next week.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:25 AM   #31
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Sure I think it's misunderstood, but every martial art is misunderstood somewhat, isn't it?
Yes. Also every religion, every musical style, every field of scientific research, and every hobby. In fact, the only time something is not misunderstood by those outside it is when they accept that they can't understand what they don't know. Aikido is certainly not some kind of uniquely persecuted stepchild in that regard, although it may have an unusually high percentage of practitioners who expect or want to be understood. Maybe we need to get over that. Somehow I don't think particle physicists lose a lot of sleep over the fact that no one at the neighborhood barbecue really understands what they do.
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Old 06-01-2010, 09:53 AM   #32
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Hi

If you do water colors, you learn to be able to "paint a picture". If you do ballet, you learn to be able to dance.

What do you learn when you do aikido?
Is the martial aspect, the budo-side of aikido really not important for you?
Having been a painter, baker, cook, and Aikidoka. None of these practices have been about painting pictures, or doing splits, or making bread, or doing nikkyo for that matter. It's been about challenging yourself. Pushing your body, or mind where you didn't think it could go, and defeating your own preconception or prejudice that keep you from excelling further.

When I did art it had nothing to do with making pictures; i remember working days on getting a perfect shading technique down. Once I figured out how to do that technique in art I thought I could never do, you could of thrown my canvas out the window and I could care less(hell, i think i did throw it away in a spring cleaning.) the purpose of the picture was about mastering a technique I thought I'd never be able to figure out.
I view Aikido, and Budo this way.

The martial aspect is important o me. Making every movement martially effective is important. Not for self defense though. I don't care if I ever use Aikido on the street, I'd be blessed if I never have to in fact. But it is an endless challenge to take these techniques and make them work frankly.
It is about pushing yourself, and accomplishing things your own prejudice normally wouldn't allow you to achieve. It's not about refining art techniques, but it is about refining a person's character through the refinement of those techniques. I refine my nikkyo endlessly, not just so I have a killer nikkyo, but because it is an endless challenge.

I've wrestled, and done a little BJJ before. I'm short, stout and naturally muscular. When it comes to wrestling, I'm good naturally, I can get in spaces and positions my more long armed, leaner sparring partners wish they could .. and I can get better quickly, I have a natural advantage from genetics in grappling and wrestling. Therefore those arts bored me... but Aikido, that's hard, that's a challenge. I gave up all other arts to practice it. It is physically hard, mentally hard, it pisses me off and makes me feel inadequate one moment, then it makes me feel courageous the next moment... and through training it really does change the way you view and think about stuff in the world. O'Sensei said his goal was to create people of superior character through Budo.
I went into Aikido afraid to fall down, and frankly the ability to fly in ukemi was liberating for a stout little ball like me. Aikido like every other art to me is about self-refinement. From that aspect, only the Budo-side of Aikido is important to me.

Quote:
And can you achieve true self-mastery through aikido, in the case it will only work if done with other aikidoka and not if practiced with people of other MA?
Like I said I don't care if you do Aikido, or ballet... you are practicing selfmastery if you are doing it for honest reasons.

Quote:
I don't like this video. but:
Isn't aikido one particular sort of jujutsu? How do you distinguish between them?
Aikido is a type of jujitsu. But I think a 5th kyu could look at that video and not recognize it as Aikido. Aikido hasone technique(kokyu) and many principles. That video is lacking some vital principles that define Aikido from other jujitsu.Therefore I can't say it without doubt that it is Aikido...but to each their own if they choose to call it that.

Quote:
???
What do you mean by this point?
O'Sensei said his goal was to spread Aikido to every nation, and that it was created for the benefit of all people. Thus, with that said, there is a calling, according to the founder, to spread and share the art with others.

Last edited by RED : 06-01-2010 at 10:06 AM.

MM
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Old 06-01-2010, 10:05 AM   #33
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Ha,
Of course Aikido is misunderstood by those outside the community. It's misunderstood by those inside the community. Just look at all the internal arguments we have. It's okay though, just like everything else.

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Old 06-01-2010, 11:26 AM   #34
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
With that said, why do you think it is this way? The low kyu ranks are on fire and want to tell everyone how awesome it is, while the high dan ranks are quiet and isolated.
Like most things, maybe it is like being in love; at first you are shouting from the roof tops, and about after 10 years of marriage thing grow comfortable, maybe?

I have made an observation however in my experience however. The new students that are the loudest to boast and scream(often with little understanding) the virtues of Aikido, tend to quit after 2 months. Is Aikido publicly represented by 6th kyu that quit the Martial Art 2 months before they can even roll then?
Partly it's demographics. The average 6th kyu I see is seldom under 35 and the majority are over 40. The only people screaming from the rooftops (and into the wind) are the very rare group of mid to senior kyu grades that are under 30. Peeps that by rights should probably be in a Muay Thai or MMA gym.
Partly it's also organisation; Aikido organisations are usually monolithic feudalistic structures that tend to be ultra conservative and are run by people that have often been running them or at least senior in the organisation since before the internet.

There's no-one really fired up to do anything; instead there's 40-50 years of entrenchment and a suspicion of anything new and a constant intake of people that aren't all that interested in or even in a position to challenge things. As we say "Do as Sensei says" "Do as your dojo does." Got a question? The answer is, "Shut up and train." Any student who doesn't find their questions answered simply leaves, the only people left are the ones that don't ask questions i.e people that aren't all that interested in doing anything other than Sensei says.

People often ask why we're not in MMA. The reason is simple; we're really good at weeding out anyone that would want to be in MMA. We have them off the mat and bitching online in double quick time. We'd rather show someone the door than show them how Aikido is relevent to them.

That said the reason we can't show how Aikido is relevent to them is because often it is irrelvent. The hierachy doesn't encourage development of Oyo waza; put your hands up if you even know what Oyo waza is because I'll put money that I've just sent a load of ni, san and yon dans onto google to find out.

How many times do we hear off Aikidoka "Aikido can't deal with a boxer" as if we as a group even bother trying? Then when someone perhaps suggests that we should be perhaps investigating ways of doing it we get blank looks. Even worse if you know how to do it you're met with complete indifference. Literally if I had gone off into the mountains and come back with a bunch of Oyo waza that could totally defeat any one in MMA the reaction amongst Aikidoka would be total indifference at best and probably outright hostility.

The fact that we could, if we could as a group be bothered, demonstrate that we are actually quite an effective art, thus drawing in new and younger people who would preserve our art and push it forward just isn't important to us.

It infuriates me. It's monumental short sightedness.

I share your observation; the biggest gobs are on the people that at most have a years worth of training. With the exception of myself of course.
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Old 06-01-2010, 11:52 AM   #35
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
The fact that we could, if we could as a group be bothered, demonstrate that we are actually quite an effective art, thus drawing in new and younger people who would preserve our art and push it forward just isn't important to us.
Yes, well...speaking only for myself, I'll say that life is too short to pursue some notion of "effectiveness" if the person promoting it can't (or won't) tell me what it's effective for. A hammer is an effective tool for driving nails, not so much for fixing a broken window. Should I practice against boxers? Maybe, but first I want a reason why. Saying that I should train to be "effective" against a boxer presupposes that that's a goal for me. So why should it be?
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:23 PM   #36
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

"The martial aspect is important o me. Making every movement martially effective is important. Not for self defense though. I don't care if I ever use Aikido on the street, I'd be blessed if I never have to in fact. But it is an endless challenge to take these techniques and make them work frankly.
It is about pushing yourself, and accomplishing things your own prejudice normally wouldn't allow you to achieve. It's not about refining art techniques, but it is about refining a person's character through the refinement of those techniques. I refine my nikkyo endlessly, not just so I have a killer nikkyo, but because it is an endless challenge."

I believe that developing one's character, self-defence (and defence of others), and personal challenge are all very valid reasons to train. It is just that I never understood why some (particularly in the AIkido community) choose to separate them out. Why not incorporate all three into one's training? Without moral and character development one risks being no more than a trained thug and on the other end of the spectrum, one risks being a self-righteous prude who is largely helpless to help others in a physical situation despite having trained in a martial art.

I certainly cannot understand why someone would want to have a self-defence situation just so they had a "opportunity" to use their stuff per say, but it seems wise to be ready in case and if the "opportunity" never comes its OK. I mean, one is still a better person for training, conquering their demons and others (even if they didn't realize it, they will have been safer when you were around).
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:34 PM   #37
RED
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post

I believe that developing one's character, self-defence (and defence of others), and personal challenge are all very valid reasons to train. It is just that I never understood why some (particularly in the AIkido community) choose to separate them out. Why not incorporate all three into one's training? Without moral and character development one risks being no more than a trained thug and on the other end of the spectrum, one risks being a self-righteous prude who is largely helpless to help others in a physical situation despite having trained in a martial art.

I certainly cannot understand why someone would want to have a self-defence situation just so they had a "opportunity" to use their stuff per say, but it seems wise to be ready in case and if the "opportunity" never comes its OK. I mean, one is still a better person for training, conquering their demons and others (even if they didn't realize it, they will have been safer when you were around).
That's pretty much my opinion. I think all these aspects of training have to work together to make for a fruitful training experience. Everything needs ballance.
You can't be so far delved in the art that you forget the martial part, nor can you be so far into the martial effectiveness that you forget that its an art. These techniques should be martially effective, but they shouldn't be learned with the hope of using it some day. I believe in refining your character, through the refinement of martially effect technique. It needs each other in my opinion.

MM
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Old 06-01-2010, 01:46 PM   #38
RED
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Partly it's demographics. The average 6th kyu I see is seldom under 35 and the majority are over 40. The only people screaming from the rooftops (and into the wind) are the very rare group of mid to senior kyu grades that are under 30. Peeps that by rights should probably be in a Muay Thai or MMA gym.
Partly it's also organisation; Aikido organisations are usually monolithic feudalistic structures that tend to be ultra conservative and are run by people that have often been running them or at least senior in the organisation since before the internet.

There's no-one really fired up to do anything; instead there's 40-50 years of entrenchment and a suspicion of anything new and a constant intake of people that aren't all that interested in or even in a position to challenge things. As we say "Do as Sensei says" "Do as your dojo does." Got a question? The answer is, "Shut up and train." Any student who doesn't find their questions answered simply leaves, the only people left are the ones that don't ask questions i.e people that aren't all that interested in doing anything other than Sensei says.

People often ask why we're not in MMA. The reason is simple; we're really good at weeding out anyone that would want to be in MMA. We have them off the mat and bitching online in double quick time. We'd rather show someone the door than show them how Aikido is relevent to them.

That said the reason we can't show how Aikido is relevent to them is because often it is irrelvent. The hierachy doesn't encourage development of Oyo waza; put your hands up if you even know what Oyo waza is because I'll put money that I've just sent a load of ni, san and yon dans onto google to find out.

How many times do we hear off Aikidoka "Aikido can't deal with a boxer" as if we as a group even bother trying? Then when someone perhaps suggests that we should be perhaps investigating ways of doing it we get blank looks. Even worse if you know how to do it you're met with complete indifference. Literally if I had gone off into the mountains and come back with a bunch of Oyo waza that could totally defeat any one in MMA the reaction amongst Aikidoka would be total indifference at best and probably outright hostility.

The fact that we could, if we could as a group be bothered, demonstrate that we are actually quite an effective art, thus drawing in new and younger people who would preserve our art and push it forward just isn't important to us.

It infuriates me. It's monumental short sightedness.

I share your observation; the biggest gobs are on the people that at most have a years worth of training. With the exception of myself of course.
My opinion is Aikido works in all elements and venues. It wouldn't be super entertaining however. MMA fights are designed with specific rules to make the fights last longer for entertainment purposes. Like no rabbit punching, no small circle waza etc. The rules are for the sake of preserving the fighter and lengthening the fight for the audience. The need to lengthen a fight conflicts with the Aiki enter and eliminate nature. It might get boring.... however outside of an octagon.. Aikido can be very useful against the type of fighting an MMA man does. Being Aikikai I don't promote competition as part of training, but I acknowledge it's usefulness in all venues.

I don't think Aikido really has limits in that regard... Aikidoka have limits.

But I don't disagree. There are most likely a lot of school out there that isolate themselves and alienate some practitioners. They might not give a reason why for real questions. However, I'm also not a fan of the newbie walking in who questions out of malice, rather than skepticism. There is a point where it becomes rude, and obvious the person is being demeaning towards your school. But the people who show up to show off their bad-assery at the expense of your 14 year old 6th kyu girls usually weed themselves out.

Last edited by RED : 06-01-2010 at 01:54 PM.

MM
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:07 PM   #39
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Aikido a type of Jiu Jitsu?

I'd say no it is not. Not in the sense of what I consder SU arts. sU arts are trchniques, tactics, and proceedutrs designed for particular situations and conditions.

Aikido while based on the framework of historical Jiu Jitsu is a methodology designed to teach martial principles and aiki. What you do with what you learn in aikido is up to you. I think focusing primaryily on effectiveness means you are possibly allowing the "TTPs". To drive the train and this limits your ability to develop a foundation.

I am a soldier that is highly trained in modern warfare and modern Jiu Jitsu. To me, a study like aikido if trained correctly can be benefical in many ways. However I think the fascination with style or tactics to be a distraction and hindrance to the practice somewhat.

Aikido is methodology not Jiu Jitsu.

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Old 06-01-2010, 02:09 PM   #40
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

I read that whole thread on bullshido. The one self proclaimed aikidoka semi-troll seemed inexperienced and without much of a clue. Generally the rest of the folks seemed to have a pretty clear understanding of Aikido.

The other folks may or may not have liked Aikido but their opinions were at least pretty well informed.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yes, well...speaking only for myself, I'll say that life is too short to pursue some notion of "effectiveness" if the person promoting it can't (or won't) tell me what it's effective for. A hammer is an effective tool for driving nails, not so much for fixing a broken window. Should I practice against boxers? Maybe, but first I want a reason why. Saying that I should train to be "effective" against a boxer presupposes that that's a goal for me. So why should it be?
IHO it is far easier to work on becoming a better human being when one is vertical than horizontal and maybe not breathing. Not that a confrontation is "probable", but hey, why play the Vegas odds if one is already practicing a martial art already. It isn't like one has to go someplace that one isn't already going. If martial effectiveness is not taught during class then perhaps at an open class or after class could work.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:15 PM   #42
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Jason Rudolph wrote: View Post
IHO it is far easier to work on becoming a better human being when one is vertical than horizontal and maybe not breathing. Not that a confrontation is "probable", but hey, why play the Vegas odds if one is already practicing a martial art already. It isn't like one has to go someplace that one isn't already going. If martial effectiveness is not taught during class then perhaps at an open class or after class could work.
Okay. So what's the nature of the "confrontation"? Gosh, won't you be a sorry-looking smear of bad-smelling paste if you spend all your time working on remaining "vertical" by means of techniques to defeat a boxer, only to get laid "horizontal" by an enraged former employee with several firearms and a matching set of ammo? Won't you make a nice-looking "horizontal" corpse when your significant other stabs you while you're sleeping?

In order to honestly tell yourself that you're training to remain "vertical", you need to honestly -- honestly -- ask yourself just what is threatening to make you "horizontal".
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:19 PM   #43
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yes, well...speaking only for myself, I'll say that life is too short to pursue some notion of "effectiveness" if the person promoting it can't (or won't) tell me what it's effective for. A hammer is an effective tool for driving nails, not so much for fixing a broken window. Should I practice against boxers? Maybe, but first I want a reason why. Saying that I should train to be "effective" against a boxer presupposes that that's a goal for me. So why should it be?
Simple; if you can't convince potential new students to take up your art the art will die.
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:41 PM   #44
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Partly it's demographics. The average 6th kyu I see is seldom under 35 and the majority are over 40. The only people screaming from the rooftops (and into the wind) are the very rare group of mid to senior kyu grades that are under 30. Peeps that by rights should probably be in a Muay Thai or MMA gym.
Partly it's also organisation; Aikido organisations are usually monolithic feudalistic structures that tend to be ultra conservative and are run by people that have often been running them or at least senior in the organisation since before the internet.

There's no-one really fired up to do anything; instead there's 40-50 years of entrenchment and a suspicion of anything new and a constant intake of people that aren't all that interested in or even in a position to challenge things. As we say "Do as Sensei says" "Do as your dojo does." Got a question? The answer is, "Shut up and train." Any student who doesn't find their questions answered simply leaves, the only people left are the ones that don't ask questions i.e people that aren't all that interested in doing anything other than Sensei says.

People often ask why we're not in MMA. The reason is simple; we're really good at weeding out anyone that would want to be in MMA. We have them off the mat and bitching online in double quick time. We'd rather show someone the door than show them how Aikido is relevent to them.

That said the reason we can't show how Aikido is relevent to them is because often it is irrelvent. The hierachy doesn't encourage development of Oyo waza; put your hands up if you even know what Oyo waza is because I'll put money that I've just sent a load of ni, san and yon dans onto google to find out.

How many times do we hear off Aikidoka "Aikido can't deal with a boxer" as if we as a group even bother trying? Then when someone perhaps suggests that we should be perhaps investigating ways of doing it we get blank looks. Even worse if you know how to do it you're met with complete indifference. Literally if I had gone off into the mountains and come back with a bunch of Oyo waza that could totally defeat any one in MMA the reaction amongst Aikidoka would be total indifference at best and probably outright hostility.

The fact that we could, if we could as a group be bothered, demonstrate that we are actually quite an effective art, thus drawing in new and younger people who would preserve our art and push it forward just isn't important to us.
Interesting ideas.. Although the student contingent of Shodokan Aikido may be against what you say

As a 4th Kyu, 25 year old Fan of MMA.. I feel I totally go against everything you've typed lol. but I can see why you think that, and in some cases agree. Lots of people join try it, and then disappear, but that's the same with all martial arts. Because you need to learn and can't be an all action hero after 2 weeks people get bored and leave. I can't wait until I get good at this and can start just messing around with stuff, grappling with Judoka just for kicks and stuff.

I regularly try to defend Aikido on the depths that is the Sherdog Forum (MMA forum) and usually get nowhere, I do sometimes resort to slamming the whole not competitive side a little bit, if nothing more than just to draw a line stating that Shodokan / Tomiki is different and we do have competition, at least then maybe changing some MMA fan's minds slightly. but alas I don't get a lot of support. saying that Shodokan sometimes feels like the red headed stepchild of Aikido, not appreciated by the other sections of the art and at the same time tarred with the same brush by others

Last edited by Mark Gleadhill : 06-01-2010 at 06:44 PM. Reason: adding
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Old 06-01-2010, 06:48 PM   #45
RED
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Aikido a type of Jiu Jitsu?

I'd say no it is not. Not in the sense of what I consder SU arts. sU arts are trchniques, tactics, and proceedutrs designed for particular situations and conditions.

Aikido while based on the framework of historical Jiu Jitsu is a methodology designed to teach martial principles and aiki. What you do with what you learn in aikido is up to you. I think focusing primaryily on effectiveness means you are possibly allowing the "TTPs". To drive the train and this limits your ability to develop a foundation.

I am a soldier that is highly trained in modern warfare and modern Jiu Jitsu. To me, a study like aikido if trained correctly can be benefical in many ways. However I think the fascination with style or tactics to be a distraction and hindrance to the practice somewhat.

Aikido is methodology not Jiu Jitsu.
Put that way, I'd have to agree.

It is the difference between prescription and proscription to a certain extent imo.

MM
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:02 PM   #46
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Simple; if you can't convince potential new students to take up your art the art will die.
And how should I convince them? With dishonesty? By telling them that they'll be "effective", presumably against everything since I've specified nothing?
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:14 PM   #47
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

plenty of people have done that for sure Mary Go pull up anyone's website and look at what they say.

None of it is really lies, but nobody really says what it is either.

I tend to just let people believe what they want to believe. You can't really convince them anyway. You could tell them the truth or level with them....they will still attempt to beat a round peg into a square hole, then go away and say "they ripped me off".

Some people are like that.

I don't personally care if it dies or lives. The way I figure it, if folks find value in it...it will live, if not then we are probably doing something wrong anyway so better to find out now!

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Old 06-01-2010, 08:11 PM   #48
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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plenty of people have done that for sure Mary Go pull up anyone's website and look at what they say.

None of it is really lies, but nobody really says what it is either.
Among that, our site says it is an excellent way to lose weight!

MM
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:11 PM   #49
Keith Larman
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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Simple; if you can't convince potential new students to take up your art the art will die.
Then it will be its time to die.

The incredible popularity of Aikido is paradoxically both its greatest strength and the source of its greatest weakness. So I just keep training and focus on what I do, why I do it, and enjoy the sights and sounds along the way. Everyone else's mileage *will* vary. And that's fine.

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Old 06-01-2010, 08:29 PM   #50
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Re: Is Aikido misunderstood in the Martial Art world?

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... martial effectiveness is not taught during class ...
... "Martial effectiveness" is not practiced in almost any "martial art" on offer outside of truly military training. "Martial effectiveness" is measured by willfully entering a situation in which you have an objective you commit your own life to achieve, there are men who are willing to kill you to prevent it, and you train to achieve your objective despite all of the above, which may, or may not, involve killing those men or others to achieve it, or you dying to do so, depending. NO ONE trains for that unless they -- well, train for THAT.

Nothing else is actually "martial." Brutal is not martial, nor even necessarily effective. Winning is not martial, many martial engagements don't involve that kind of "winning." "Winning" may mean dead -- with target achieved.

Aikido is a "DO" -- meaning that it is not merely a set of martial tools that accomplish the martial purpose ( a "bujutsu") -- it is a WAY -- a way in which those tools may be used to maximize a martial effect with the least martial harm -- not "no harm" and not "no effect."

Aikido is a measure of a certain martial optimality -- not the only one, nor necessarily the "best" set of optima for given set of circumstances -- but as an means of training critically optimal measures of types of martial action, it informs the WAY in which to understand and choose optimal criteria more generally -- without having to think about it -- because there is rarely time to think optimally in a truly martial circumstance. Thinking should be used in training in inverse proportion to the likelihood of being able to use it in the real circumstance -- but with equal intensity.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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