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Old 08-15-2005, 07:03 AM   #51
Hogan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 106
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Glad to be of service. Too bad you missed the irony (what is it about Conservative's and irony, anyhow?)

Who said I missed the irony ?
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Old 08-15-2005, 07:09 AM   #52
Hogan
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
Yeah, ya gotta just hate ppl who screw up by shaking hands with dictators, way way back in the '80's...right, John?
Reagan met and shook hands with the Pres of Nicaragua (Daniel Ortega) when we were mining her harbors..... doesn't mean we liked him. And at least Reagan never made Ortega an honorary citicizen and accepted money from him, like Detroit and her lover Saddam.
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Old 08-15-2005, 07:57 PM   #53
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Posts: 225
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
OK, then if the CIA, in an official report, says Iraq had WMD and was a supporter of terrorism, would you believe them, then, since you believe MI-6 ? Or is just because they said what you believed all along ?
I would believe it if they were stating it in an official report, and Iraq and the US were allies.

You forgot that minor detail.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-15-2005 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 08-15-2005, 07:59 PM   #54
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
If we were governed by a murderous, corrupt dictatorship, c'mon down.....
(Left you an opening here, Neil....)
ROFL.

OK, I'll bite.

US...........

Murderous (100,000 Iraqi's killed)? check.

Corrupt (Think Tom DeLay)? That's a 10-4

Dictatorship (Ideological extremists controlling all the major branches of gov't)? Hmm....it's a grey area. We're close, but Bush can't simply dictate solely by his word.

Yet.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
UN did not authorize the US coalition to remove Saddam.
Dirk: John's right.. the UN did not authorize removal.

Last edited by Neil Mick : 08-15-2005 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 08-15-2005, 08:00 PM   #55
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Who said I missed the irony ?
OK, now you're scaring me.
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Old 08-15-2005, 08:08 PM   #56
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Reagan met and shook hands with the Pres of Nicaragua (Daniel Ortega) when we were mining her harbors..... doesn't mean we liked him.

And at least Reagan never made Ortega an honorary citicizen and accepted money from him, like Detroit and her lover Saddam.
No, he just sent Rummy over to shake his hand, ignore the gassing of Iranian's, and give him some money (and technology, and the green light to kill more ppl). Thus, my link to the pic.

A bit more of a spicy romance than Saddam got from Detroit, IMO.
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Old 08-15-2005, 08:25 PM   #57
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Tim Gerrard wrote:
Neil, so can you honestly say that Iraqis are worse off now, than under Saddam?
I believe that a stifled press, no electricity or water, and a US dictatorship (yeah, yeah, I know: "Iraqi's have their own democracy. Freedom is on the march!" Some freedom, when every Iraqi rep has to report to a US rep, for approval of gov't'l actions) is in all likelihood little better than a vicious dictatorship under Hussein, WITH running water and electricity.

Notice? I said "in all likelihood." Neither you, I, nor even John really knows how the Iraqi's are doing. Why?

Two reasons:

1. Iraq is the most dangerous place in the world right now, for foreign reporters. The stuff you're getting on the news now is all "hotel coverage."

2. The US Occupation Army censored the press in Iraq, last year (not to mention jailing and beating up some Iraqi journalists). We have no idea what the Iraqi's think about the occupation, except for the few polls which suggest a significant (but not overwhelming) majority in favor of the US going home.

But I do know one thing: US troops are the catalyst for suicide bombings and insurgencies. We screwed up, and now Iraq has to pay the price for our blunder. Even BushCo is backing away from the idea of a "model" democracy coming out of this debacle.

In the end, Dirk is right. We have no mandates to replace bad leaders. Even if we did, we sure have selective vision, about "bad" leaders. We hate Iraqi and Iranian leaders, but we're fine with leaders in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Darfur, Haiti, Israel and Indonesia, all subjecting minorities to torture, wrongful imprisonment, or worse.

Would we have gone to all this trouble and wrung our hands over the horrible regime of Hussein if Iraq were located in the Caribbean? I don't think so.
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Old 08-16-2005, 07:12 AM   #58
Hogan
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Neil Mick wrote:
I would believe it if they were stating it in an official report, and Iraq and the US were allies.

You forgot that minor detail.
So, Britain and Iraq were allies ?
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Old 08-16-2005, 07:52 AM   #59
Dirk Hanss
 
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
If we were governed by a murderous, corrupt dictatorship, c'mon down.....
(Left you an opening here, Neil....).
I did not want to compare this with the occupoation of the Iraq, I only wanted to point out, that who is better off afterwards is not the question.


Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Sorry, but a nation will act in its defense the way IT sees fit, not the UN..
Against an aggressor, yes. But not against Iraq.

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
Did you favor action in the Balkans when Clinton used military force ?.
At least from legal aspects, it was much better.


Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
UN did not authorize the US coalition to remove Saddam.
You're right, but just a few days later they could have stopped the action in Bagdad.


Ciao Dirk
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Old 08-16-2005, 12:21 PM   #60
Hogan
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
Against an aggressor, yes. But not against Iraq.
I guess it depends on what your definition of 'agressor' is.
(by John "Clinton" Hogan)...


Quote:
At least from legal aspects, it was much better.
How so ? It didn't have UN approval, nor did they attack the US, nor did they have WMD, nor did they have any connection with terrorists, nor had they ingnored 12 yrs of UN resolutions, nor were they in violation of same, nor did they fire and try to shoot down UN patrols.... What did they do ? Kill a people ? Hmmmm... sounds like Saddammy & the Kurds....
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Old 08-16-2005, 12:48 PM   #61
Adam Alexander
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Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
How so ? It didn't have UN approval, nor did they attack the US, nor did they have WMD, nor did they have any connection with terrorists, nor had they ingnored 12 yrs of UN resolutions, nor were they in violation of same, nor did they fire and try to shoot down UN patrols.... What did they do ? Kill a people ? Hmmmm... sounds like Saddammy & the Kurds....
The hell you say. They had some money and connections. Therefore, they had WMD.

They were in existence when someone attacked the U.S. Therefore, they attacked the U.S.

They did have a connection to terrorists...they drank water, so do terrorists...therefore, they must be dealt with.

etc., etc., etc.

I'm almost a Republican again
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Old 08-16-2005, 01:16 PM   #62
Hogan
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
Jean de Rochefort wrote:
The hell you say. They had some money and connections. Therefore, they had WMD.

They were in existence when someone attacked the U.S. Therefore, they attacked the U.S.

They did have a connection to terrorists...they drank water, so do terrorists...therefore, they must be dealt with.

etc., etc., etc.

I'm almost a Republican again


Are you smoking those funny little cigs again ? C'mon, man, exhale.....

ehhhxxxxhaaaaaaaale.....
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Old 08-16-2005, 03:43 PM   #63
Neil Mick
Dojo: Aikido of Santa Cruz
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Quote:
John Hogan wrote:
So, Britain and Iraq were allies ?
Yes, if Britain and Iraq were allies, and the CIA released an official report that stated that Iraq was a supporter of terrorism--if all other circumstances were the same as today (i.e., the US and Britain were allied, this was not another sleazy attempt of weird, Rov'ian spin), yeah: I'd give it a lot of creedence.

Esp if the CIA were reporting results from a particular meeting of notables.
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Old 09-08-2005, 02:11 PM   #64
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Re: Homicide or Suicide????

Look at this simple example. Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire to protest the VietNam war. This is a type of suicide. On the other hand there were buddhist kamikaze pilots who "sacrificed themselves to the cause of the emperor". This is also suicide. The media in the West is going a little crazy with "spin". That is because they do not want to address the issue. Why do muslim suicide bombers blow themselves up? They are desperate, and they have a desperate cause.
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