|
|
Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the
world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to
over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a
wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history,
humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.
If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced
features available, you will need to register first. Registration is
absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!
|
11-24-2010, 04:38 AM
|
#101
|
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,248
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Randall Lim wrote:
However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.
Maybe Kano had been searching for the secret to easily achieve "Ju" in his Judo, but could not until he saw Aikido. Kano in fact invited O'Sensei to join his Kodokan, be did not because O'Sensei had already established his own school.
What do you think of this??
|
I think accuracy is underrated in today's world.
In October of 1930, Professor Kano paid a special visit to the founder at the temporary Mejiro Dojo. I have heard it said that he even commented, "This is what I call the ideal budo; that is to say, the true and genuine judo." After Professor Kano returned to his Kodokan he told one of his close associates:
To tell the truth I would like to have Ueshiba here at the Kodokan, but since he is a master in his own right, that is quite impossible. As a second choice I would like to send some of our own talent to train with Ueshiba and try to promote an exchange between the two systems.
A few days later he sent Minoru Mochizuki and Jiro Takeda to study under the founder. I have in my possession Professor Kano's very polite letter on the matter
Source: Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Aiki News #59
|
|
|
|
11-24-2010, 08:52 AM
|
#102
|
Location: Kawasaki, Kanagawa
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,276
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote:
DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.
You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.
|
I am not familiar with differences between the syllabi, but my assumption is that the techniques on the jujutsu scroll can be performed with aiki, and that if I were to watch Konda Sensei perform them at an embu, he would be performing them with aiki.
Do I have that wrong?
|
|
|
|
11-24-2010, 12:49 PM
|
#103
|
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
I have worked with a few exceptional judoka that seem to understand the concept of aiki as well.
|
|
|
|
11-24-2010, 06:11 PM
|
#104
|
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote:
I am not familiar with differences between the syllabi, but my assumption is that the techniques on the jujutsu scroll can be performed with aiki, and that if I were to watch Konda Sensei perform them at an embu, he would be performing them with aiki.
Do I have that wrong?
|
Hi Cliff,
Let me be sure to state up front that I am not a DR practitioner, nor do I claim to be an expert in that art (so any who are, please feel free to correct any errors I make), but the basic answer to your question is... yes. DR jujutsu can be done with aiki too (but then it becomes aikijujutsu technically, no?) or it can be done without aiki... but even if done without aiki it's still jujutsu with the "ju" principle in place and active.
|
Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
|
|
|
11-25-2010, 08:45 AM
|
#105
|
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
I can play tennis with Aiki. That doesn't turn tennis into aikido...
|
|
|
|
11-25-2010, 12:48 PM
|
#106
|
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,646
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote:
I can play tennis with Aiki. That doesn't turn tennis into aikido...
|
Perfectly stated.
|
|
|
|
08-21-2012, 07:41 AM
|
#107
|
Location: Berkeley, CA.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 169
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote:
I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. Groundwork was first discovered right after the first guy who fell to the ground in a fight and fought from there. That probably happen right after the first case of being caught having an affair with another caveman's woman. Or the first caveman stealing food from another.
I am not surprised to see the Judo moves at all. ( I don't practice Judo so I am going off that it was Judo ). Before BJJ and it's popularity there was Judo. I think it is a stable in all Japanese martial arts used in feudal times not to go to the ground which spawns the concept of, to defeat your opponent you must first be successful with kuzushi. You lose in Sumo if you go to the ground first before the other guy. Japanese martial combatants didn't want to go to the ground in all those centuries of war, right?
Spartans, Greeks and Romans had wrestling/groundwork. But, I don't think either of them as soldiers in combat wanted to go to the ground on the battlefield. I think that would be the last place the wanted to go.
BJJ made it popular for many people to think that it was an advantageous position to fight from to go to the ground and do ground work their way. And Kudos to that art for being good at it, in they arena. But it is sad to think that there might be any indication that people will think BJJ pioneered or was the father, mother of all ground work. And that- yes, fights do go to the ground - no other art ever thought and developed ways to fight when on the ground other than BJJ.
|
ahh, interesting. Thanks.
|
"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
|
|
|
08-21-2012, 01:38 PM
|
#108
|
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Interesting, but not an opinion shared by those of us in BJJ or Judo.
I'm always happy to discuss grappling and ground work since it is my passion. So please feel free to ask as it seems you have an interest.
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 01:42 PM
|
#109
|
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 282
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Interesting, but not an opinion shared by those of us in BJJ or Judo.
I'm always happy to discuss grappling and ground work since it is my passion. So please feel free to ask as it seems you have an interest.
|
Maybe it´s a stupid question, but do you think suwari waza is usefull in a ground fight ?
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 02:07 PM
|
#110
|
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 601
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Lars Beyer wrote:
Maybe it´s a stupid question, but do you think suwari waza is usefull in a ground fight ?
|
I´m not Kevin (and not even close to his depth of experience in bjj/sw) but: No.
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 02:12 PM
|
#111
|
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Not useful in the context of the exercise, but the principles of the movement are the same for Guard work. In fact, I was teaching a class last week and demo'd surwari waza and the connection to the guard. The basic movements and use of hips, center of gravity, and posture are the same.
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 02:14 PM
|
#112
|
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Also, if you look at knee on belly and transitioning to it, there are many good principles embodied in suwari waza
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 02:17 PM
|
#113
|
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Sorry for multiple post. If u are dealing with weapons and controlling your opponent on the ground, I think transitioning between levels, yeah good fundamentals in aikido drills and exercises. That said, it ain't fighting and there is so much more that must be considered...but foundational skills...yes much embodied in good waza.
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 04:12 PM
|
#114
|
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 282
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote:
I´m not Kevin (and not even close to his depth of experience in bjj/sw) but: No.
|
Ups.. sorry.. wrong post, right question..thanks..
Time for me to go to bed.. thought I had asked you the question by mistake..
Last edited by lars beyer : 08-22-2012 at 04:14 PM.
Reason: Time to go to bed..
|
|
|
|
08-22-2012, 04:18 PM
|
#115
|
Dojo: Copenhagen Aikishuren Dojo
Location: Denmark
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 282
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Sorry for multiple post. If u are dealing with weapons and controlling your opponent on the ground, I think transitioning between levels, yeah good fundamentals in aikido drills and exercises. That said, it ain't fighting and there is so much more that must be considered...but foundational skills...yes much embodied in good waza.
|
Thanks, the reason I ask was a prison guard I trained with some years ago, he said he used suwari waza
techniques regularly when he had to subdue violent inmates and the fight went to the ground.
|
|
|
|
08-23-2012, 04:45 AM
|
#116
|
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
|
Re: Grappling In Aikido
Then it sounds like his interpretation of surwari waza was beneficial to him and he found context in the form and practice.
I personally have found much in similarity to what I do in BJJ or combatives foundationally manifested in aikido.
I think this is a very reasonable thing seeing how aikido is supposed to be based on sound foundational principles of basic and correct movements and realizing efficiencies.
However, while that is the case....I think there is a BIG difference between theory and practice.
I think this is why aikido and BJJ can be great complementary practices. My aikido practice places a priority on foundational skills, core, internal strength etc with a low priority on application, tactics, techniques, and proceedures. My BJJ practice places a high priority on tactical success using foundational skills, core, internal strength etc.
The issue is not the practices, but the practicioners that are usually not adequately experienced and jump HUGE gaps in understanding and reach conclusions about application and thus, misrepresent, or mis-apply what they are in reality learning.
|
|
|
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:58 AM.
|
vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
|
|