Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-09-2012, 09:33 AM   #51
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
Location: Hartlepool
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 107
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
i just think that aikido groups shouldn't be able to utilise the name unless authorised by a higher body
This would be a nightmare. Given the revisionism and general hijinks we've seen when organisations don't have an iron grasp of this martial art, I dread to think what would happen if a 'higher body' was so empowered. You cannot empower a group to uphold individual integrity.

Last edited by Belt_Up : 07-09-2012 at 09:37 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 10:34 AM   #52
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
Chris, The first lesson is to learn the difference between budo and bujutsu. If you want to learn "martial skills" then you should seek a bujutsu ryu.
The path of Aikido budo is something much different than mere martial technique.
A few of us had a nice conversation w seki sensei one summer, and he said I think basically the same thing.

We have to define for ourselves, what it is we want. Jutsu or do... Self preservation, or self improvement

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 10:51 AM   #53
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
United_States
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
A few of us had a nice conversation w seki sensei one summer, and he said I think basically the same thing.

We have to define for ourselves, what it is we want. Jutsu or do... Self preservation, or self improvement
Seki, for all that I loved training with him, has never been much of a thinker.

"Jutsu" doesn't mean self preservation, just as "do" doesn't mean self improvement.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 12:01 PM   #54
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Seki, for all that I loved training with him, has never been much of a thinker.

"Jutsu" doesn't mean self preservation, just as "do" doesn't mean self improvement.

Best,

Chris
How's that, Chris?

How would you explain the meanings of jutsu and do?

I mean, sure, literally translated that's not the meanings, but in the context of 'martial' art, etc, what other definitions are there

Last edited by ramenboy : 07-09-2012 at 12:07 PM.

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 12:25 PM   #55
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,313
United_States
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
How's that, Chris?

How would you explain the meanings of jutsu and do?

I mean, sure, literally translated that's not the meanings, but in the context of 'martial' art, etc, what other definitions are there
That's just it - the dichotomy is kind of a modern misunderstanding that was exacerbated by Donn Draegger, and that some Japanese have latched onto. It's really not that clear or profound a division of definitions.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 12:38 PM   #56
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That's just it - the dichotomy is kind of a modern misunderstanding that was exacerbated by Donn Draegger, and that some Japanese have latched onto. It's really not that clear or profound a division of definitions.

Best,

Chris
THATS NOT THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR!!!!!!

Maybe it' was a way for us westerners to try to understand. Just like there's no real western meaning for ki...

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 12:55 PM   #57
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,202
United_States
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
THATS NOT THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR!!!!!!
Nice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 12:58 PM   #58
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 347
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Nice.

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 03:33 PM   #59
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

Quote:
Chris Knight wrote: View Post
hi kevin, nothing whatsoever - i just think that aikido groups shouldn't be able to utilise the name unless authorised by a higher body when they post videos which are absolutely, in no way related to our art, hopefully....

hope the arms improving and you're back in action soon!

chris
Thanks for asking Chris, today was my first day back on the mat, teaching though and very easy. Will have to train conservatively for a while.

In theory, of course I agree that it would be nice if there was such a thing as Aikido (tm).

However, looking at a few of the other post, I have to say, I agree and think we are actually better off without the (tm). I think overall the hybridization, and freedom to interpret has probably paid us more dividends than determent.

If there was one singular organization that got to decide what was and what was ot aikido....think about it....

Someone or a board would have to quantify that somehow. We'd have test that would be standardized. Only select people would be able to promote. It would get very expensive. Interpretation or creativity would be very limited or limited to the few guys that sat on the top of the very steep paramid.

Take a look at the downfall of judo and judo organizations in the US. Lots of in fighting, they constantly change the rules for various reasons, sometimes for safety, but lately IMO it is to keep Jiu Jitsu players, Sambo, and Grapplers from being successful and co-opting Judo and changing it. Can't blame them really, it is at risk if you are the status quo.

Think about the guys like Dan Harden. People that decided to spend time with him would be ex-communicated and stripped of the ability to use the Aikido(TM) label. Student bodies would be split. The focus would be completely wrong. We'd be focusing on organizational politics and climbing the ladder vice actually improving what we are doing.

I'd say most, if not all of the major guys here on Aikiweb would be stripped of the ability to use the AIkido(TM).

So then what?

We'd have to appeal to some sort of national or state board to start a new art or derivative. The National Body for Martial Arts would be very hesitant to improve another Aiki like organization since the 200,000 plus Aikido(TM) body would be very powerful and lobby to prevent us. That and if they did that, there would be a landslide of everyone wanting to start there own new art cause they didn't agree with the establishment that purports mediocrity at best as it is most profitable that way.

I think education is the best way. We can inform people as best we can about how to make good decisions and navigate the maze. I got my start and what would be considered a "McDojo". I knew nothing about martial arts and simply took what was offered at the health club. As I became more and more educated, and my thirst grew deeper, I sought out more and more information and trained with others. I'd say it took me a good 15 years of training before I felt I understood training and what constituted good training for myself.

Yeah, it is frustrated and comical to see some of the garbage that is out there.

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2012, 10:26 PM   #60
davoravo
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 67
Offline
Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

I don't really think this (the OP) is an issue. Most teachers repeatedly state that there are better ways to learn to fight. My first teacher taught that "this shouldn't be teaching you how to hurt someone but makIng you realize how vulnerable and easily hurt you would be in a fight."

Equally there is plenty of stuff on the Internet criticizing aikido and lots of information that "if you want to learn to fight you have to get out and fight" and aikido training obviously doesnt involve fighting. I think most aikidoka are like me, far too pretty to have our faces smacked evey week in training. All in all there is plenty of information available to make an informed choice.

Yes, there are some deluded students but I think they are looking for Ki magic instead of hard work. hopefully they realize their own aikido is not good enough to use in a fight. They are probably also very unlikely to get into a fight. Seems those folk who seek out real rough and tumble training get into a lot more fights than us fluffy bunnies.

As a slight tangent to your question, but still on topic - Do people think martial arts instructors should or "have a duty" ensure that their students can defend themselves, irrespective of their main art.? ie should self defense techniques be taught as a regular break out from class?

I used to practice elbow strikes, groin knee strikes and groin kicks (oh, and some punches) on a heavy bag when I first started aikido. In terms of "techniques" there is probably not much more that needs to be added (eye gouges, judo chop to neck - oh, that's shomen uchi). Get an old fairbairn or Sykes manual and you should be good to go!

But of course how you train is slightly different to what you train (a list of techniques), which is a big part of what you are saying.

(oh, look, I have answered my own question. :-) )

The most important part of any self defense course is protecting yourself by avoiding trouble and dangerous environments. This is certainly an area I think every Martial arts instructor should consider teaching.

Last edited by davoravo : 07-09-2012 at 10:31 PM.

David McNamara
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dan Hardin PDX Allen Beebe Events Listings: Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 15 01-13-2011 09:44 PM
What to do ? Anonymous Anonymous 78 04-25-2008 02:15 PM
Getting High On The Mat! Unregistered Anonymous 129 02-19-2006 10:59 PM
Article: Accountable and Responsible by Lynn Seiser AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 06-17-2005 06:28 PM
Poll: Should the instructor be responsible for everything that happens on the mat during aikido training? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 10 12-15-2004 09:06 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:34 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2024 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate