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Old 01-18-2006, 05:28 PM   #1
rookie
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chokes in aikido

just started aikido and was wondering if there were any choking techniques in aikido? possibly taught at higher levels
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:42 PM   #2
mj
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Re: chokes in aikido

Not really. Kata only. All the spaces are left open.

That's just a general observation though, nothing gospel.

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Old 01-18-2006, 05:51 PM   #3
RebeccaM
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Re: chokes in aikido

Yes. But you don't see them very often. The only one I really know is a knife take - you end up controlling the knife/breaking you attacker's elbow across your knee with one hand and choking them with their clothes with the other hand. It is not very nice, but, OTOH, you really have no business being nice to someone who's trying to slash your throat open with a knife.
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Old 01-18-2006, 06:49 PM   #4
Marxama
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Re: chokes in aikido

I luckily found a video of the one I was thinking about, so I won't have to explain all of it..

http://www.aikidojo.info/arisue_tsuk..._variation.wmv

Arisue-sensei doesn't show the choke very clearly in this video, but 11 seconds into it, he has his hands together - from there, you make your elbows go together, and at the same time you bring your hands up, making the space between your arms smaller, thus choking uke

EDIT: Ah, also, there's a variation of that choke, where you kinda cross-grab ukes gi from behind

Marcus Magnusson
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Old 01-18-2006, 07:16 PM   #5
Karen Wolek
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Re: chokes in aikido

Depends on your dojo. My sensei loves chokes. Especially on me. During freestyle class.

Karen
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Old 01-18-2006, 08:24 PM   #6
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Re: chokes in aikido

Yeah, we do also the chokes regularly. This is what the bears like the most.

Nagababa

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Old 01-18-2006, 09:35 PM   #7
Choku Tsuki
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Do you defend against chokes? Check your kyu tests; look for kubishime. Is it there? There's your answer.

--Chuck
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Old 01-18-2006, 09:58 PM   #8
MaryKaye
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Re: chokes in aikido

We have sankyo against a back choke on our second kyu test. Learning it was a real growth experience for me--the attack sets off a much stronger adrenaline reaction than being grabbed or even punched. It's especially challenging when uke is a big strong guy--the technique is actually not hard, but only if you don't panic initially.

One of our sensei likes to experiment with teaching different techniques to new beginners, and once taught this one. I thought it was an interesting choice--our usual beginner throws are from katate tori, which doesn't seem like a "real attack" to a lot of people. The choke clearly is an attack, and getting to feel how someone gets out of that intrigued the newbies. The sankyo was a lot for them to grasp quickly, but just weakening and escaping the choke was a good exercise. It also forced them to come to terms with their reluctance to attack someone else: you can take someone's wrist diffidently, but you can't really choke them diffidently, or at least it's rather obvious and silly when you try.

Mary Kaye
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:15 PM   #9
Janet Rosen
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Re: chokes in aikido

Grab from behind turning into a choke is fairly standard where I train.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:41 AM   #10
Steven
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...cat=500&page=1
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:46 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: chokes in aikido

Hi Steven,

That is a really nifty Daito ryu choke. In the Goshin jutsu portion, I believe, against a standard judo grip attack. Really nice choke... For anyone interested in chokes and aikido, I suggest you look to the source. Daito ryu teaches both chokes as attacks from uke, and chokes as finishing techniques against attacks as shite. Many styles of aikido have some of these.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:23 AM   #12
ruthmc
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Re: chokes in aikido

Yep. Last week half the class was devoted to 'em. I have a big impressive bruise over my collarbone from some over-enthusiastic grinding of people's knuckles into said collarbone..

Next time I have threatened to wear American football style padding

Ruth
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Old 01-19-2006, 08:33 AM   #13
Amir Krause
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Re: chokes in aikido

Depends on your Sensei and style.

In the style I learn there are a couple of chokes that are used as the main part of a technique, and a few techniques that have some partial choke in them. However, none of those techniques are considered basic or primary (On second thought, I doubt any technique could answer the second criteria in a general manner).

Amir
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:22 AM   #14
senshincenter
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

I agree with Amir here - depends on your sensei and style. There is no way we should really say "yes" or "no" to this type of question - I feel.

Additionally, it also depends upon whether or not you belong to a tradition where Aikido is understood as a list of techniques (a "one through ten" kind of thing) or whether Aikido is understood more in terms of principles/concepts. If you belong to the latter line of thought/practice, you will see lots of everything - not just ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, shiho-nage, not just chokes, etc. Moreover, you will see "basic" techniques (which will not be experienced by you as "basic" in the same way that they are experienced by the formerly mentioned practitioner) being done in many different ways (ways that have nothing to do with stylistic preferences but that have to do with an internally consistent combining and re-combining of principles).

Thus, in some lines of Aikido, you will never see any chokes being used defensively and/or in response to any type of aggression. What often passes for a "choke" in these lines of thought/practice is the "attack" Kubishime Katate-dori. However, in my opinion, one should not feel that in learning to offer this cue to Nage that one is learning how to choke someone out and/or even choke effectively. It is the same thing with Tsuki - practicing Tsuki over and over for many many years is not going to make one a proficient striker. Aikido "attacks" are best understood as cues and/or as energy prints. When they are understood as energy prints, one can see the core element of a given tactic and all of its variations - which is good for training and necessary for training within idealized conditions - but one does not thereby learn the specificities of a given tactic. It is the specificities of a given tactic that make it effective and applicable outside of idealized training conditions.

Thus, when asked, "Are there any choking techniques (which is more than the energy print of chokes) in Aikido?"

Answer: For some, yes. For others, no.

Here's another shot (video) of another choke example - it's the last technique in the series:

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/vids/ushirowaza.html

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-19-2006, 09:36 AM   #15
kokyu
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Re: chokes in aikido

I have never practiced this before, but I was wondering whether there is a move when someone holds a blade (instead of the forearm) against the front of your neck? All the choke escapes I've learned involve some sliding or scraping against the chokehold, but this probably won't work with a knife to your neck.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:03 AM   #16
Dominic Toupin
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Re: chokes in aikido

In the Yoseikan aikido curriculum, we have defense against Ushiro Katate Eri Jime Dori in the Te Hodoki part. We practices a lot of judo-like shime waza too...

Dominic
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:33 AM   #17
RebeccaM
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Re: chokes in aikido

I've seen a yonkyo done from a blade to the neck type of attack. You really have to get control of the knife hand, and you probably will get cut. Hopefully not deep enough to be a real problem though.
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Old 01-19-2006, 12:21 PM   #18
Ron Tisdale
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Re: chokes in aikido

For the blade issue, first immobalize the hand holding the knife. Then do whatever. Good luck...

David, liked your post (again). One of the reason's I recommended Daito ryu is because my minimal experience of the main line is that they insist on actually being competant in the attack (within the prescribed 'engergy print', but still competant). My experience has been that if I do not defend myself against uke's atempt at a choke, I go to sleep. That is one of the things I really like about keiko in that organization.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-19-2006, 01:15 PM   #19
Steven
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Hi Steven,

That is a really nifty Daito ryu choke. In the Goshin jutsu portion, I believe, against a standard judo grip attack. Really nice choke... For anyone interested in chokes and aikido, I suggest you look to the source. Daito ryu teaches both chokes as attacks from uke, and chokes as finishing techniques against attacks as shite. Many styles of aikido have some of these.

Best,
Ron
Hmm ... choke being done by Aikido 8th dan shihan = Aikido Choke.

.. and if memory serves me correctly, it was from yokomen uchi. Still can't quite figure out how the heck he did that. LOL
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:28 PM   #20
Ron Tisdale
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Re: chokes in aikido

Go figure...the same choke in Daito ryu and Aikido...who'd a thunk it?!

Yokomenuchi? On a guess, from aihamni, I'd tenkan-yoke-atemi 180 degrees, cutting down on uke's striking arm, feed the arm to my striking hand, lead uke to their front as I start to go behind, left hand goes into their dogi by their neck, fore-arm over their shoulder, step behind, right hand grabs the dogi over their other shoulder, kick out their right knee for good measure, and say good nite. But hey, that's just me...Shihan probably did something completely different!

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-19-2006, 01:53 PM   #21
Lyle Bogin
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Re: chokes in aikido

Was O'sensei in his later super-aiki years still into performing chokes?

Or perhaps a better question is: did he stop demonstrating them and when was it?
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:00 PM   #22
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Re: chokes in aikido

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
For the blade issue, first immobalize the hand holding the knife. Then do whatever. Good luck...

David, liked your post (again). One of the reason's I recommended Daito ryu is because my minimal experience of the main line is that they insist on actually being competant in the attack (within the prescribed 'engergy print', but still competant). My experience has been that if I do not defend myself against uke's atempt at a choke, I go to sleep. That is one of the things I really like about keiko in that organization.

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,

That makes sense to me. There is indeed a interdependent relationship between energy prints and technical specificities - such that if you know the specificities you can offer a better energy print in training, etc.

Ron, in the "go to sleep choke" you mentioned, I take it that that is NOT the common Kubishime Katate-dori - that energy print you see from the ever-growing-more-standardized Aikikai syllabus - is it? I ask that because, for me, "going to sleep" is definitely part of choke attack, but we have some folks thinking that the aforemented Aikido cue/energy print is a choke though it has no capcity at all to provide the "going to sleep" threat. Wouldn't you agree that that seems a bit "off"?

dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 01-19-2006, 02:21 PM   #23
Ron Tisdale
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Re: chokes in aikido

Absolutely seems off. The energy print I was thinking of is:

Uke goes for a standing cross-choke grip on the dogi, then hip throw, then complete the choke from side control.

Shite uses sokomen step, double atemi to short ribs/pressure point above solor plexas on the sternum, controls the elbows, steps back / body change and throws uke while retaining an arm, and pins them.

I haven't seen this taught in 'aikikai aikido' as yet...but interestingly enough Steven Miranda has just mentioned a different choke taught in some schools in the yoshinkan, which I became familiar with in Daito ryu...he has a good picture of one of the finishing positions for it above. It puts me to sleep... The danger here is that I don't want to infer these prints don't exist in 'aikikai' schools at all. I'm sure they do...I just haven't seen it yet. I know the print is in yoseikan as well. I'm willing to bet it's been seen in Nishio Sensei's aikido and he was in the aikikai.

I tend to think of that 'other' energy print as an attempt at a strangle.

Best,
Ron

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Old 01-19-2006, 03:22 PM   #24
Keith R Lee
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Re: chokes in aikido

I don't know if Aikido is necessarily the art I would be pursueing if I was interested in chokes. The uke/shite relationship would seem (to me) to cloud one's perception when it came time to actually perform a choke. Because when you attempt to choke someone, and they actively don't want to be choked, they will do some crazy/strange things. Or even beyond that, if the person being choked has any practice in grappling arts, they are going to be out of it and on you like white on rice.

All right, please be aware that I am speaking delicately here and mean no disrespect to anyone and am discussing techniques only. In the picture Steven linked to it appears that Parker shihan is applying a standing variation of a sliding collar choke (am I correct here Steven?). I have had the same choke applied to me (and I want to say one time by Parker shihan, the last time he was in Canada with Terada shihan) by other Aikidoka. While I initially thought they were powerful, formidble techniques, I seriously have my doubts now after two years of experience with BJJ and Sambo.

In a system (like BJJ or Sambo) that has sophisticated choking methods and systems that are tested against resisting opponents, it becomes clear that chokes are:

A) diffuclt to pull off
B) someone with a modicum of training in grappling can shut down many chokes
C) there are a select few chokes that are "high" percantge, meaning they can be performed against resisting opponents reliably. The chokes I experienced in Aikido were never any of the chokes that are "high" percentage in grappling arts except perhaps for a RNC.

All that is to say, I would rather spend time in Aikido practicing things that I think are its strong points: timing, movement, balance, wrist controls, etc. than practice something that I think is not fully developed. Again, all IMHO.

One thing I'm curious about Steven, and I hope you don't mind me asking -if so please ignore me, is how your perceptions of Aikido have developed with your progress in BJJ? I seem to recall Justin Grant mentioning to me that you were fairly high ranked in BJJ. Do these aikido chokes stand up to measure for you? They might be good knowledge to have but are they the type of thing you would attempt when rolling with someone? (ie, cut-arm down, spin opponent around, apply reverse sliding lapel choke, and have that person actually tap?) Even further, what about no-gi rolling?

Keith Lee
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:40 PM   #25
Charlie
 
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Re: chokes in aikido

Here is some more of Parker Shihan in a choking mood!

http://myaa.info/media/Parker_Embu_Ikkajo.wmv

That was during the Yoshinkan all Japan Enbu Taikai.

Parker Shihan is the senior student of Kiyoyuki Terada Hanshi. Besides Gozo Shioda sensei, Terada sensei is the only other Yoshinkan instructor to have studied with Osensei...and his Aikido reflects that early connection with the Daito Ryu/Aikibudo days. Enough so that you can see a difference between Yoshinkan Honbu techniques and Terada honbu techniques.

Subsequently, both Terada sensei and Parker sensei teach chokes [and not just the energy print that Dave and Ron are talking about!!!

Charlie

Last edited by Charlie : 01-19-2006 at 03:43 PM.

Charles Burmeister
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