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Old 02-26-2017, 03:53 PM   #1
IvLabush
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Eek! Why Aikijujutsu?

I've been wondered recently by the people that do different kinds of 'Aikijujutsu'. Body work that I saw looks like Aikido with strikes included. Some throws adopted from judo. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is a lot of different.
So why people call mixes as 'Aikijujutsu'? Is it possible that Aikido+something creates 'Aikijujutsu' now?
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Old 02-26-2017, 04:09 PM   #2
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu (or Aikibudo) is the art from which all genuine aikijujutsu is descended, but there are various lineages, as well as some arts that have Daito Ryu's aiki and its basic waza as part of their foundation, but which also have integrated waza and combat methods from other neo-classical and/or koryu arts, and do not consider themselves to be Daito Ryu.

Aikido originally was drawn from Daito Ryu aikijujutsu, but Morihei Ueshiba adapted the waza for aikido. The purpose of the jujutsu was different, then, and not meant for its original combative purposes. Aiki made even that re-tooled jujutsu workable, which is why Ueshiba could do all sorts of things with it that later generations of aikidoka could not, after aiki body method was lost from most contemporary aikido.

There are a lot of people claiming to teach "real" aikijujutsu, but who are actually re-tooling aikido and adding in various jujutsu waza from other systems. Still others are teaching the authentic jujutsu waza from Daito Ryu, but do not have the internal/aiki body method, and so are not really able to demonstrate genuine aikijujutsu. Still, there are some good schools for learning the essence of the art, if someone is interested in this fascinating and historical martial art.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 02-26-2017 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 02-26-2017, 08:55 PM   #3
IvLabush
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Cady Goldfield, thank you for answer. I'm a bit confused now, because I can't remember any other japanese martial arts school of 'Aikijujutsu'. Some jujutsu school probably could have ideas similar to Daito-ryu's 'aiki'. I belive that it should be one the highest art transmission levels that's why I never heard of it. It was rumor that some martial art schools develops techniques against 'aiki'. We should not forget fact that Daito-ryu related schools adopt 'aiki' idea in own way. Anyway those could be determined easily.
It would be nice if someone could share other japanese martial art that includes 'aiki' idea similar or same to Daito-ryu. Aikido, Hako-ryu and it's branches might be known to a lot of people. But what if we have more 'aiki' related schools.
I wondered also about naming. I see no shame if someone put efforts to develop martial arts. Somehow I saw too less people that called new martial art like 'my jujutsu'. In Japan a few cenutries ago guys do that actually! And now we have a lot of different points of view to japanese martial tradition. Looks like 'Any School Aikijujutsu' becomes fashion words in martial art world. It would be nice to point 'aiki' of which martial art the new school uses at least.
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Old 02-27-2017, 05:49 PM   #4
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Ivan,
Basically, Aikijujutsu is associated with Daito Ryu. However, the foundation of aiki/internal method has connections to Chinese internal martial arts, and someone who has trained in an internal Chinese system could apply what they learn to jujutsu and have an internal martial art.

There are some people (mostly in Daito Ryu) who say that in order to truly be Aikijujutsu, the internal method must come from a Japanese source -- specifically, Daito Ryu -- however; I say if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I have a strong suspicion that Japanese internals/aiki originally were derived from Chinese teachings, anyway.

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
Cady Goldfield, thank you for answer. I'm a bit confused now, because I can't remember any other japanese martial arts school of 'Aikijujutsu'. Some jujutsu school probably could have ideas similar to Daito-ryu's 'aiki'. I belive that it should be one the highest art transmission levels that's why I never heard of it. It was rumor that some martial art schools develops techniques against 'aiki'. We should not forget fact that Daito-ryu related schools adopt 'aiki' idea in own way. Anyway those could be determined easily.
It would be nice if someone could share other japanese martial art that includes 'aiki' idea similar or same to Daito-ryu. Aikido, Hako-ryu and it's branches might be known to a lot of people. But what if we have more 'aiki' related schools.
I wondered also about naming. I see no shame if someone put efforts to develop martial arts. Somehow I saw too less people that called new martial art like 'my jujutsu'. In Japan a few cenutries ago guys do that actually! And now we have a lot of different points of view to japanese martial tradition. Looks like 'Any School Aikijujutsu' becomes fashion words in martial art world. It would be nice to point 'aiki' of which martial art the new school uses at least.
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Old 02-27-2017, 09:15 PM   #5
Mark Raugas
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Basically, Aikijujutsu is associated with Daito Ryu. However, the foundation of aiki/internal method has connections to Chinese internal martial arts, and someone who has trained in an internal Chinese system could apply what they learn to jujutsu and have an internal martial
I agree, having been through that very process. You may have to get rid of a bunch of things along the way. My guess is with aikido, the core waza are more likely to survive such a process? Would some Aiki waza and kokyu nage survive but not others?

Mark
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Old 02-27-2017, 10:14 PM   #6
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Daito Ryu looks more like this. This woman is making the guy grunt in pain without having to add extra techniques like punches and kicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFscW0BP_Q

Some inevitably ask "why doesn't he let go" but she is probably using force vectors (I guess "jin" or "aiki") to keep them stuck together.

There is a video in which Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan Aikido explains how to make uke unable to let go, except uke isn't constantly grunting/screaming in pain like in Daito Ryu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=31m40s

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-27-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 02-27-2017, 11:23 PM   #7
IvLabush
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Cady Goldfield, I agree that Japanese internal training could have Chinese roots. Japan adopt some things from China in own way. I'm not aware in Chinese martial arts and I guess that it could be a difference in power application. I saw a lot of hitting or pushing away in Chinese tradition, but less in Japanese.
Anyway if someone did that kind of researches it would be interesting to know about that.

Paolo Valladolid, I belive that Daito-ryu is not about how to make someone scream. To put the mask and fire torchlight is the best solution
Those two videos could illustrate the difference in application. The first one demonstrate how to use inner power to drop opponent down. The second one is about how to push away.
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:41 AM   #8
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

IMHO, Aikido comes from Aiki-Jujutsu, but took a different path for a different reason/intent.
When I train in Aikido (do), I usually see self-development and self-defense (at best).
When I train in Aiki-Jujutsu (jujutsu) I usually see more martial application/spirit.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:01 AM   #9
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
Paolo Valladolid, I belive that Daito-ryu is not about how to make someone scream. To put the mask and fire torchlight is the best solution
Those two videos could illustrate the difference in application. The first one demonstrate how to use inner power to drop opponent down. The second one is about how to push away.


Actually, I agree with you, based on what little Daito Ryu I have seen, heard, and felt, although I like that joke: "When your partner smiles as you do a technique, it's Aikido. When he screams, it's Daito Ryu". Some Daito-Ryu branches specialize in the manipulation of force vectors to do things to the partner, with or without pain - I believe this is what some people refer to as "aiki" in the Internal Training forum. I believe what Ledyard-sensei did to me was "aiki" - didn't hurt but it was quite a revelation to feel it happening. He was showing me how uke should connect to nage, by grabbing my wrist. Then "something" went up my arm.

In Aikido, there are a lot of people who can use the Up/Ground force vector, as demonstrated by Ando-sensei, but that seems to be about it. Smaller Aikidoka seem to get it more consistently than big guys. It is the most accessible one - this is what Tohei was talking about in his Ki principles: "Keep one point. Weight underside.... etc.". Down/Gravity is trickier to use. Using them both and whatever other vectors are available is trickier still.

Certain Chinese MA use force vectoring too, but I haven't heard of anyone using them in another person's body - just within one's own body to hit harder, uproot another person, etc. Sending force vectors/aiki into somebody else seems to be a Daito Ryu innovation.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 02-28-2017 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 02-28-2017, 08:20 AM   #10
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Here, Chen Xiaowang describes 8 force vectors. He calls them "jin". He seems to be only talking about using them within his own body, not manipulating them in another person; unless it is a secret not to be shared with the public on pain of death: http://taichivideos.org/chen-xiaowan...tai-chi-chuan/
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Old 02-28-2017, 09:59 AM   #11
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Here, Chen Xiaowang describes 8 force vectors. He calls them "jin". He seems to be only talking about using them within his own body, not manipulating them in another person; unless it is a secret not to be shared with the public on pain of death: http://taichivideos.org/chen-xiaowan...tai-chi-chuan/
Aiki is something you create in your body first: a set of complementary-opposite tensions that generate deliberately, specific kinds of force. If someone touches you, his body will be affected by those internal movements within you. You exploit that by creating additional kinds of tensions and "fullness" to control his center of mass and force him to move in a mirror image -- but with greater received force -- to how you are moving inside yourself.

That's why Morihei Ueshiba said, basically, "Aiki, is making my opponent do what I want him to."

It has to be within yourself, first -- the processes already in motion -- before you can affect another bdy. Because you are already in a state of internal power, and generating aiki, you are "there" (i.e. your body is "on" and able to affect an opponent, immediately on contact, without having to "move" overtly). Then, it's a matter of conditioning yourself to use that in fighting, to be able to apply that power and body-effect in waza and fighting tactics.

The Chen person is talking about that first step - of making the processes within your body.
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Old 02-28-2017, 03:44 PM   #12
IvLabush
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

To Paolo Valladolid.
Roman languages faced problem to translate term 'Aiki'. We do not have such word or its combination to describe idea fully. Generally, inner feeling of 'aiki' described by different people is the same. So it's hard to say 'Thing that looks like this is aiki' or 'Thing that does this is aiki'.

I think that 'aiki' idea or similar could be different and depends on art context. Goes back to the first message I still think about martial arts called 'Aikijujutsu'. The name seems general for an endless quantity of different representations of the same idea. It gives not more than 'Aikido' without the branch and teacher name.
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:55 AM   #13
Amir Krause
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
Daito Ryu looks more like this. This woman is making the guy grunt in pain without having to add extra techniques like punches and kicks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFscW0BP_Q

Some inevitably ask "why doesn't he let go" but she is probably using force vectors (I guess "jin" or "aiki") to keep them stuck together.

There is a video in which Ando-sensei of Yoshinkan Aikido explains how to make uke unable to let go, except uke isn't constantly grunting/screaming in pain like in Daito Ryu:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhDz...tu.be&t=31m40s
First Video seems peculiar to me, don't see any reason for this guy to grunt in pain, or even to go down, I can't see why he shouldn't keep holding her - nothing seems to be done to him. Would have to feel this to believe it, cause to me this looks like magic or self deception.

Second video is too long t, so not clear what you found similar, all the parts I saw had clear and rather simple mechanical principles behind them, no "super hidden" aiki.

Thanks
Amir
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Old 03-01-2017, 10:13 AM   #14
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
First Video seems peculiar to me, don't see any reason for this guy to grunt in pain, or even to go down, I can't see why he shouldn't keep holding her - nothing seems to be done to him. Would have to feel this to believe it, cause to me this looks like magic or self deception.
Amir, you've being around here for some time. This is the IP/Aiki thing people have been talking about.
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Old 03-01-2017, 02:36 PM   #15
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Amir Krause, the video is rather demonstration than explanation. It take some time to practice those things before it becomes observable. Training explains it indeed.
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Old 03-01-2017, 03:22 PM   #16
RonRagusa
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Paolo Valladolid wrote: View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFscW0BP_Q

Some inevitably ask "why doesn't he let go" but she is probably using force vectors (I guess "jin" or "aiki") to keep them stuck together.
Yeah, I don't think so. Uke is using the platform provided by nage to apply a form of nikkyo on himself. OTOH, this video of Roy Goldberg is more instructive and a lot more believable. I've been on both sides of this type of demonstration. It works.

Note that even in Goldberg sensei's demonstration uke has the option of letting go, but then there wouldn't be anything to demonstrate. As with all demonstrations of this type uke has to be a committed participant.

Ron

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Old 03-01-2017, 06:32 PM   #17
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

No, they can't let go, weird as it seems. Nage is "filling" the point of contact with force from his core internal mechanisms (6-directional force), through uke's alignment to his center of mass, and down to the ground. He is compressed through his joints and can't get out of it until the force stops.

These things can be reversed, though, if you have aiki yourself. But people with conventional body structure get stuck.

Also, the holds and locks are not meant to be kept for very long. In practice, they would be done just briefly to allow nage to set up and execute a throw, takedown, choke, lock.. whatever. This is aiki-no-jutsu -- aiki itself, as technique unto itself, but not something martial or related to combat application. You can apply the principles and concepts to waza and fighting, but this is just happy funtime demonstration, in these videos.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-01-2017 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:36 PM   #18
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Here are some of those principles and concepts in a more martial application.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3-8yiqnaPE
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Old 03-01-2017, 09:01 PM   #19
Devon Smith
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
I've been wondered recently by the people that do different kinds of 'Aikijujutsu'. Body work that I saw looks like Aikido with strikes included. Some throws adopted from judo. Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu is a lot of different.
So why people call mixes as 'Aikijujutsu'? Is it possible that Aikido+something creates 'Aikijujutsu' now?
Hi Ivan,

I think in order to understand what is happening with usage of the term "aikijujutsu", especially in USA and Europe, you might have to first look to some writings of some of the first people outside Japan who spent time inside Japan trying their best to put their experiences on paper.

Certainly Donn Draeger comes to mind. In reading his works "Classical Bujutsu" and "Classical Budo", it was pretty easy for us to draw some simple, not-thought-out-so-well conclusions.

Conclusions like "well, if aikido is a budo and a way of harmony, then aikijutsu must be a way of battle, war, and killing."

This sense of disparity between bujutsu and budo is still alive depending on who you talk to.

Personally, I think that's a shame.

http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

Devon

Last edited by Devon Smith : 03-01-2017 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 03-02-2017, 06:51 AM   #20
Amir Krause
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Ivan Labushevskiy wrote: View Post
Amir Krause, the video is rather demonstration than explanation. It take some time to practice those things before it becomes observable. Training explains it indeed.
Been training Korindo Aikido for over 25 years by now, not as diligently as I would have liked, so I have some idea. This first video is significantly different from the others, though also in few of the other videos here the Uke could let go and disable the technique, while most show "simply correct body mechanics" with an Uke who is not trying to escape the technique, rather help it a little, but not excessively so. From my POV, there is a great difference in positions, unless the video is hiding some fact I miss. Hence, as I wrote above, until I personally feel something like this first video, I'll categorize it same as those seen in this thread: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25081
You may believe it as much as you like

Amir
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Old 03-02-2017, 07:49 AM   #21
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Note that even in Goldberg sensei's demonstration uke has the option of letting go, but then there wouldn't be anything to demonstrate. As with all demonstrations of this type uke has to be a committed participant.
This is a fair statement - I just wish there wasn't a tendency of uke to over act (the first video especially).

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 03-02-2017, 07:53 AM   #22
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Aiki is something you create in your body first: a set of complementary-opposite tensions that generate deliberately, specific kinds of force. If someone touches you, his body will be affected by those internal movements within you. You exploit that by creating additional kinds of tensions and "fullness" to control his center of mass and force him to move in a mirror image -- but with greater received force -- to how you are moving inside yourself.

That's why Morihei Ueshiba said, basically, "Aiki, is making my opponent do what I want him to."

It has to be within yourself, first -- the processes already in motion -- before you can affect another bdy. Because you are already in a state of internal power, and generating aiki, you are "there" (i.e. your body is "on" and able to affect an opponent, immediately on contact, without having to "move" overtly). Then, it's a matter of conditioning yourself to use that in fighting, to be able to apply that power and body-effect in waza and fighting tactics.

The Chen person is talking about that first step - of making the processes within your body.
This makes sense. When Ledyard had me do to him what he did to me ("send aiki" or whatever) I could not get anything going until I established ground force first. Whenever he said I got "stuck" in his shoulder, chest, or whatever, I had lost the ground force.
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Old 03-02-2017, 07:58 AM   #23
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post

Second video is too long t, so not clear what you found similar, all the parts I saw had clear and rather simple mechanical principles behind them, no "super hidden" aiki.
The Youtube link should have taken you to the 31:40 mark. The explanation lasts only a few minutes.

I think the woman in the first video is using similar principles. Her partner is complaining a lot more because his wrist is at a more uncomfortable angle and it's stuck there.
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:04 AM   #24
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Yeah, I don't think so. Uke is using the platform provided by nage to apply a form of nikkyo on himself. OTOH, this video of Roy Goldberg is more instructive and a lot more believable. I've been on both sides of this type of demonstration. It works.

Note that even in Goldberg sensei's demonstration uke has the option of letting go, but then there wouldn't be anything to demonstrate. As with all demonstrations of this type uke has to be a committed participant.

Ron
So did he do the same to you? How are you able to let go?

In the Goldberg video, the only opportunity uke has to let go is before the 0:10 mark. Afterwards, his only way out for his hand is down. He cannot release his grip, because he isn't gripping anything anymore by that point. He can't move his hand up for obvious reasons. Sideways is not possible. So he'd have to get lower and hope Goldberg doesn't just follow him.
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Old 03-02-2017, 08:09 AM   #25
GovernorSilver
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Re: Why Aikijujutsu?

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To Paolo Valladolid.
Roman languages faced problem to translate term 'Aiki'. We do not have such word or its combination to describe idea fully. Generally, inner feeling of 'aiki' described by different people is the same. So it's hard to say 'Thing that looks like this is aiki' or 'Thing that does this is aiki'.
Right, there is no universal agreement on what aiki is. Part of the problem is most of us don't read/write Japanese. The characters for "aiki" in "Aikido" are two specific characters. But there are other characters that can also be pronounced "aiki" but probably don't mean the same thign.

What Ledyard did to me is what Cady calls "aiki".

The Internal Training forum is where a lot of discussion of "aiki" and sometimes "jin" takes place. This stuff seems to be built on the ability to use two basic forces, gravity and ground (the force you exert to stand, otherwise you'd be lying on the ground). There are Aikido dojo that already work with ground force, especially those influenced by Tohei's teachings - ours is one of them. We don't have formal "Ki tests" like Ki Society people have but we do have exercises where you hold a weapon extended in front of you, and your partner pushes on the weapon - you are instructed to allow the push to reach your back foot. This is basic ground force usage. A variation is to use ground force to push your partner across the mat. I have not yet encountered gravity force exercises - I don't know if that is taught at all in any Aikido dojo.

Last edited by GovernorSilver : 03-02-2017 at 08:16 AM.
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