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Old 08-09-2006, 05:56 PM   #201
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I would be interested in working some judo style randori with someone who could employ the skills you mention. It would be a good learning experiance to see how I react to them without prior knowedge. But one can hope

Anyways, good post. I do have one question. Assuming you do somehow end up on the ground in a fight (worst case all else failed type senario). What are your ideas on using aikido to escape a position like the mount or side control and return to standing quickly and safely?
Ledyard Sensei showed two good ones from the mount, a sankyo type release, and a fairly straightforwad irimi/ikkyo cut to the head, which I use routinely to make newbs do their osae controls properly, and I can do that from one side of my body to the other. Doing it to uke in a topmount position seems easier -- kind of a horizontal kokyu dosa with a hip shift instead of a true rotation. The latter is vulnerable to an arm bar, but the approach in this case is such it is not too clear what is happening until it really too late, and if he went to the bar from the mount, other things should open up.

I am trying get one of our judoka to work with me on side controls, which I have not played with extensively, so I am thinking out loud. Kata gatame, I have no idea how to shift on the ground (standing I'd koshi him). Cross or kesa seem typically transitional anyway, and I suspect that drawing him MORE on top by rolling under, which is hard for uke to resist going with to get to the mount, especially with my gripping hand heading directly for his nethers, and will expose some of these openings for dismounts. Especially if he goes affirmatively for the mount, I can probably carry him over the top with momentum as though I were trying to reverse to take mount, if he attempts a similar sacrifice roll to get back in mount, and I can take mae ukemi at the top toward his head to get more defintively free. I imagine a rhythm similar to some of the spiral-in irimi throws, but in reverse. Must try.

That is, unless he has pinned the arm or hooked the leg already, but that's alot to do in one complete motion, and any break in flow provides the opening. Half guard is harder, because the leg is not free, but the nethers are still exposed.

I suspect he will say that's not fair, but then that's aikido for ya -- all we give is fair warning.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 08-09-2006 at 06:08 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:03 PM   #202
MM
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote:
Let me ask you this Mark. Assuming Don was correct, what sort of proof would you suppose would be availible to him?
If I knew that, I wouldn't have asked. I'd already know the answer. Since I don't, I asked for proof. None has yet been provided and the only thing I've received is "I don't have time" and a sort of, No, you provide proof response.

I'm not the one who put out the assumptions, but I am the one wanting proof. It's easy to sit in a chair and post whatever you want. But, if someone calls you on it, you should at least have supporting facts, not a response of "I would like you to prove all fights start and end standing". Which, by the way, I never stated.

No proof, then it's just words on a screen meaning nothing. Kevin at least provided some snippets of relevant information. Don -- nothing. Well, he keeps griping about ground fighting being valid or mattering, etc etc etc ad nauseum. It's a nice attempt to dodge the issue, but not good enough. Nowhere in any of my posts did I say it wasn't valid or that it didn't matter. In fact, I stated that it was valid, and it does matter.

But Don stated that almost all fights go to the ground (something about it's rare that a fight doesn't go to the ground). I asked for proof of that. I'm still waiting...

Mark
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Old 08-09-2006, 08:57 PM   #203
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I dont have time to prove anything. ... But I guess because I can't prove anyone fights on the ground but me and the gracies then it doesn't happen enough to matter.
I agree in one sense and disagree in another. You fight where you find yourself, which is simple necessity. Staying there (or anywhere else, for that matter) willingly is nuts, unless you have decisive strategic advantage. Knowing that in hot contact is exceedingly diffcult.

Much as I am intrigued by the application of aiki principles if I find myself on the ground, I see no strategic advantages on the ground, as attacker or defender; I see only only tactical contingencies and exigent circumstance. With ukemi I see many strategic exploitations. But I would not call ukemi ground fighting either. It is, however, a strategic transitional device -- like most of the side controls on the ground.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:28 PM   #204
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
But Don stated that almost all fights go to the ground (something about it's rare that a fight doesn't go to the ground). I asked for proof of that. I'm still waiting...

Mark
I have re-read this entire thread. Please show me where I said that.

I'll give you a hint. I never said that. I said that when you punch someone, they tend to clinch to escape punches. And that when you grapple (clinch) you tend to fall down. This does not mean all fights go to the ground, or its rare a fight doesn't go to the ground. It simply means it is easy to take a fight to the ground. I know for a fact I can take a fight to the ground any time I want to, and I dont even have to try very hard. In fact, I take fights to the ground on accident all the time due to a mistake. This does not mean either party wants to fight on the ground. It doesn't even mean both partys can't simply stand back up. It simply means falling down is the easiest thing to do. You get punched hard, you fall down, trip you fall down, clinch you fall down, throw you fall down. Once you are down, its a ground fight. Because being on the ground one of the worst places you can be (as everyone agrees), I would suggest that you should learn how to deal with basic position so you can stand back up. I've fallen down in sparing with strikes only. Do you think if I was on the street and got hit and fell down my attacker wouldn't follow me down, sit on my head and punch me, or at least soccer kick me?? Is this really an unreasonable assumption? I think an attacker would finish the fight, rather then wait for you to recover and stand back up. That is providing he really wants to hurt you.

That is all I have said. You however have put words in my mouth to make some kind of silly worthless straw man game.

However, if you would like proof of my statements, please tell me what you would accept as proof. Perhaps I will find time to dig some up. Of course I will only provide proof to my exact statements. So that means I will have to prove that clinching makes you vunerable to falling down and that when being agressivly attacked, people tend to clinch.

Last edited by DonMagee : 08-09-2006 at 09:35 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:38 PM   #205
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
I agree in one sense and disagree in another. You fight where you find yourself, which is simple necessity. Staying there (or anywhere else, for that matter) willingly is nuts, unless you have decisive strategic advantage. Knowing that in hot contact is exceedingly diffcult.

Much as I am intrigued by the application of aiki principles if I find myself on the ground, I see no strategic advantages on the ground, as attacker or defender; I see only only tactical contingencies and exigent circumstance. With ukemi I see many strategic exploitations. But I would not call ukemi ground fighting either. It is, however, a strategic transitional device -- like most of the side controls on the ground.
There is one strategic advantage on the ground. Being in the mount. From the mount you can dominate your target with little risk to self. You can escape quickly (stand up), and you have neturalized most of his attacks and defenses. I would not recomend a person take a fight to the ground, but if you end up on the ground, your goal should be to stand up or get the mount as quickly as possible. If you are striking an attacker and he falls, you should follow him down and continue your blows until he is no longer a threat. Or at very least, soccer kick him in the skull.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-09-2006, 10:00 PM   #206
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

as I mentioned earlier there is also some anecdotal evidence to suggest that when overwhelmed by numbers going underneath guard can provide some protection.

Also for evidence - look at early UFC's where two people from fighting arts face of against each other - still goes to the ground despite neither one trying to get there.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:00 PM   #207
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
There is one strategic advantage on the ground. Being in the mount. From the mount you can dominate your target with little risk to self. ... You can escape quickly (stand up), and you have neturalized most of his attacks and defenses. I would not recomend a person take a fight to the ground, but if you end up on the ground, your goal should be to stand up or get the mount as quickly as possible. If you are striking an attacker and he falls, you should follow him down and continue your blows until he is no longer a threat. Or at very least, soccer kick him in the skull.
You and I agree on the inadvisability of going to ground. I do note, though, that we disagree on the "bigger picture" of the strategic continuum. Aikido's metastrategy is not "dominate the target." It is katsu hayabi -- "instananeous victory." It is achieved through establishing musubi and allowing a flow of aiki to dissipate energy, which may not involve blows at all. While I am completely generous in my application of atemi and selection of targets - "Kick 'im in the haid" is not really aiki either.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:41 PM   #208
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Ground or not... once you had a try, you'll be hooked just like me; a poor soul addicted to it. Resistant is futile... sigh!

Is there a Grappling Anonymous, GA (TM) forum somewhere?

Boon

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Old 08-10-2006, 05:35 AM   #209
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
It simply means it is easy to take a fight to the ground. I know for a fact I can take a fight to the ground any time I want to, and I dont even have to try very hard. In fact, I take fights to the ground on accident all the time due to a mistake.
Are you talking about "real" fights here, or are you talking about pre-arranged sporting/sparring events?
If they are "real" fights might I suggest some anger management?
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Old 08-10-2006, 05:54 AM   #210
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

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Ricky Wood wrote:
Are you talking about "real" fights here, or are you talking about pre-arranged sporting/sparring events?
If they are "real" fights might I suggest some anger management?
In this context I'm talking about sparing of course. But in a real fight the dynamic is still no different. I would point out there is nothing pre-arranged about my sparing/competition matches. I have never known in advance who I was going to be up against in competition.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-10-2006, 05:57 AM   #211
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I have re-read this entire thread. Please show me where I said that.

I'll give you a hint. I never said that. I said that when you punch someone, they tend to clinch to escape punches. And that when you grapple (clinch) you tend to fall down. This does not mean all fights go to the ground, or its rare a fight doesn't go to the ground. It simply means it is easy to take a fight to the ground. I know for a fact I can take a fight to the ground any time I want to, and I dont even have to try very hard. In fact, I take fights to the ground on accident all the time due to a mistake. This does not mean either party wants to fight on the ground. It doesn't even mean both partys can't simply stand back up. It simply means falling down is the easiest thing to do. You get punched hard, you fall down, trip you fall down, clinch you fall down, throw you fall down. Once you are down, its a ground fight. Because being on the ground one of the worst places you can be (as everyone agrees), I would suggest that you should learn how to deal with basic position so you can stand back up. I've fallen down in sparing with strikes only. Do you think if I was on the street and got hit and fell down my attacker wouldn't follow me down, sit on my head and punch me, or at least soccer kick me?? Is this really an unreasonable assumption? I think an attacker would finish the fight, rather then wait for you to recover and stand back up. That is providing he really wants to hurt you.

That is all I have said. You however have put words in my mouth to make some kind of silly worthless straw man game.

However, if you would like proof of my statements, please tell me what you would accept as proof. Perhaps I will find time to dig some up. Of course I will only provide proof to my exact statements. So that means I will have to prove that clinching makes you vunerable to falling down and that when being agressivly attacked, people tend to clinch.
Post # 166:
"Very rarely do two people just throw punches at each other without grappling"

Now, did you mean something else? So, now you're saying that most fights don't go to the ground? Or that you didn't mean the two people were fighting when they were throwing punches at each other? Or that very rarely doesn't translate to most fights? But, no matter, you said you would provide proof. So, Don, provide facts/research/proof of the above statement that you made.

Also, could you provide facts/research/proof of the other statement you made, "ground fighting is a very important range of combat, but it is no more important then any other range of combat"?

Proof/research/facts are all I've been asking about. Instead, you keep throwing in stuff that I haven't asked about. Heck, I even posted I agreed with you that ground fighting is valid and worth learning. I even agree with you that it can be easy to get to a point where you do find yourself fighting on the ground.

Mark
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Old 08-10-2006, 06:04 AM   #212
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
You and I agree on the inadvisability of going to ground. I do note, though, that we disagree on the "bigger picture" of the strategic continuum. Aikido's metastrategy is not "dominate the target." It is katsu hayabi -- "instananeous victory." It is achieved through establishing musubi and allowing a flow of aiki to dissipate energy, which may not involve blows at all. While I am completely generous in my application of atemi and selection of targets - "Kick 'im in the haid" is not really aiki either.
Yes, you and I do disagree there. I am not a beleive in the one shot one kill" mentality that accompanys japanese arts and philosophy. I understand it comes from a sword culture where a single mistake means death. I just do not believe in giving my attacker the chance to recover and attack again.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-10-2006, 06:20 AM   #213
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Post # 166:
"Very rarely do two people just throw punches at each other without grappling"

Now, did you mean something else? So, now you're saying that most fights don't go to the ground? Or that you didn't mean the two people were fighting when they were throwing punches at each other? Or that very rarely doesn't translate to most fights? But, no matter, you said you would provide proof. So, Don, provide facts/research/proof of the above statement that you made.

Also, could you provide facts/research/proof of the other statement you made, "ground fighting is a very important range of combat, but it is no more important then any other range of combat"?

Proof/research/facts are all I've been asking about. Instead, you keep throwing in stuff that I haven't asked about. Heck, I even posted I agreed with you that ground fighting is valid and worth learning. I even agree with you that it can be easy to get to a point where you do find yourself fighting on the ground.

Mark
"Very rarely do two people just throw punches at each other without grappling" - this is easy to prove. Watch ANY fight you can find on the internet or otherwise. Get in a sparing match, get in a street fight. You will almost NEVER get in a fight where you do not grab another person or clinch. This is grappling. You see to think grappling and ground fighting are the same thing. You dont have to be on the ground to grapple. Being that you mentioned japanese juijitsu in a post above somewhere I would of expected you to know this. I guess you see what you want to see because you read something I simply did not write. Are you really asking me to provide proof that when two people attack each other they dont simply stand and thrrow punches at each other? Fine, I submit all murders, rapes, gang beatings, high school fights I've personally been in, MMA competitions, boxing competitions and kick boxing competitions (all boxers and kickboxeers clinch), and all sparing I've ever had in my entire life and everyone I've spared in my entire life as proof. If you would require futher proof. I would suggest sparing with people trained and untrained. You will find people will grab you more then they don't grab you. Further proof than that, I suggest picking fights.

"ground fighting is a very important range of combat, but it is no more important then any other range of combat"

Another easy proof. You can die while fighting on the ground. When you 'lose' to striking you end up on the ground where you are then killed. Thus the ground is an important range of combat because it decides if you live or die. This makes it just as important as standing up and striking or grappling. The conclusion of striking leads to at LEAST one person on the ground. Once he is down there the attacker has the choice of continuing the attack. If this is a 'real' fight, we have to assume the attacker means to main or kill you, thus he will persuse the attack. Thus ground fighting. I have taken punches I did not see which took my balance and brought me to the ground. I have seen this happen in MMA competitions and fights in high school, bars, boxing rings etc. Unless attackers always backoff when they knock someone down, there will be some form of ground fighting. (Now is a good time to point out ground fighting is not always a guy trying to submit you with an armbar, Its a guy soccer kicking you in the face while your on the ground, its a guy sitting or kneeling on your chest hitting you, and yes it could be a guy choking/armbaring you, but I find that very unlikely).

Again, what kind of facts do you want. How can I prove importance (which is by nature an opinion). Even if I showed every single fight ever ended on the ground, that does not prove the importance of ground fighting. I'll prove it when you prove all beef hotdogs taste better than turkey hotdogs. Can you prove love is just ans important as money? How about you prove that diet doctor pepper tastes the same as regular doctor pepper?

'The proof' you are after is really better served by getting your butt out there and trying it. Get an untrained person to spar with you, rain a few hard blows on him up close and personal and see if he doesn't start grabbing you. See if that grabbing doesn't make it hard to stay standing. Watch some of the first UFC's. I hate using them for an example, but why do two strikers with no ground skills end up with one guy on top of another punching him in the face? I'm sure they didn't plan that or think it was a good idea. They got too into the moment, something happend to make one guy fall and the other guy was either taken with him, or persued him to finish the fight. Had the faller been trained in some basic ground fighting skills he might of been able to reverse the situation or at the very least stand back up.

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
I even agree with you that it can be easy to get to a point where you do find yourself fighting on the ground.
really, can you prove it?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-10-2006, 07:46 AM   #214
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Hi Eric,

This is becomming a very good thread, please continue. I like the way you approach ukemi; time for me to up that portion of my practice again.

As to the suplex, a few quick points....

a) don't dismiss the straight over the top and turn at the last minute version as "pro-rastlin"...I've seen it used many times at collegiate, free-style, and olympic events. It can be a devastating throw, especially on hard landing surfaces. I've used it myself, a time or two.

b) The particular throws I was concentrating on were Daito ryu throws...some involved using sokumen step away while attacking the hands, then turning for a variety of waza, some involved entering with your hips directly into uke's waist and groin areas, and I tried a few of the Aikido breath throws as well. As my partner was better at aikido as well as wrestling than I, he could utilize little tricks of timing etc. to throw me off and thwart the waza...so it wasn't exactly a completely 'fair' exercise. But....that was the point. It's already not "fair" once someone get's behind you.

c) If I get an opportunity, I'll print out some of your suggestions and try them with Budd sometime...I have a feeling I know what;s going to happen...but I'd like to try anyway!

Best,
Ron (big guys are rarely dumb and slow, even fat ones. My first wake up call in grade school...just cause he's fat doesn't mean he won't kick your @$$. And he did...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 08-10-2006, 08:04 AM   #215
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Yes, you and I do disagree there. I am not a beleive in the one shot one kill" mentality that accompanys japanese arts and philosophy. I understand it comes from a sword culture where a single mistake means death. I just do not believe in giving my attacker the chance to recover and attack again.
"One-shot-one-kill" is not katsu hayabi. Rather, each attack is defeated as it is commenced by immediate connection to and acceptance of it -- as opposed to resisting the attack as a means of defending against it. I cannot be defeated by something I am willing to occur, and by willing it I gain a measure of direction over how it transpires. Aikido training is meant to broaden the imaginative capacity of my will to accept these attacks more and more creatively. The more a I get along in training, the more it seems like play, the less fear I feel in responding to attacks, and the better I am able to enlarge my sense of the space of possibilities.

An attack is typically a very narrow thing, precisely in order to concentrate kinetic energy. If I devote attention and energy to stopping that attack, I must necessarily narrow my focus, physically and mentally to match and overcome its power. My strategic options narrow accordingly. In aikido my time and attention is devoted to embracing the attack more fully, which enlarges my strategic possibilities rather than narrowing them.

You touch on the the critical difference where 1:1 staged attacks and randori diverge. The more people trying to attack me, the more they actually get in each other's way, and can be played off one another by use of musubi. The kind of disciplined mass attack that would overcome this advantage is exceedingly rare, more rare indeed that the one-on-one setting, and even that typically devolves into melee after the initial shock anyway. Multiple attackers are a richer strategic space in which to operate. Even if there are mere bystanders, they are dynamic elements that musubi allows one to utilize, even if only passively.

But even one-on-one, the more committed the attacker, the greater his expense of energy relative to your own. With proper breathing in randori (inhale to accept the attack, exhale to send it on its way) nage will not become nearly as exhausted as the uke attacking him. continually. Uke expends vast physical energies on focus and power and every attack is an proportional expense of breath, while every attack on nage is adding to his breath if he maintains connection to their attack. That is really what ki and aiki are about from a physiological standpoint. Harmony does not mean an even balance.

Going to immediately to ground, as I think you recognize, only puts you cheek to cheek with the smartest, most vicious animal on the planet, who is still fresh and eager -- and who wants that ? Better to wear the nasty beasties down before I get too close.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 08-10-2006, 09:07 AM   #216
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
This is becomming a very good thread, please continue. I like the way you approach ukemi; time for me to up that portion of my practice again.

As to the suplex, a few quick points....

a) don't dismiss the straight over the top and turn at the last minute version as "pro-rastlin"...I've seen it used many times at collegiate, free-style, and olympic events. It can be a devastating throw, especially on hard landing surfaces. I've used it myself, a time or two.
Obviously a failure of imagination on my part. So many things to try .. .
If the entry is as deeply bowed in as I think it must be to achieve the momentum to go over the top, a rotation of the hips and leg to one side should force the throw earlier, at the very least. Essentially, it seems he would have to lock the top, bending it backwards over his own center at the same time he is thrusting his hips forward to shift your center and begin your rotation in the vertical plane backwards.

If I let my hips and legs go slightly back and to one side, with weight over the now inside foot, while my torso tends to go slightly forward and to the other side, it balances his angular momentum, stalling his throw. I can even further aggravate the stall by extending the outside leg slightly. This is the set up for aiki-otoshi with a following step behind him to the side in the event this inital motion achieves some measure of kuzushi. It iwill definitely alter his sense of momentum, whihc may provoke a surrender of the throw attempt.

Assuming he carries on, at that point he will have to turn one way or the other. His turn for the drop will be less effective, because now the horizontal moment arm of my body, (slightly athwart him) is greater, thus the turn will have less energy.

If he turns to the side where my head is I am better positioned for a sutemi on that side of my body, , rather than on my head and neck. I am already bascially in position for a koshinage except for his bow backward. His turn toward the side closes that gap, and if the musubi is right, he rotates with me as I turn with him . Depending on kuzushi I may even be able to pivot on my weighted inside leg in the same direction as his turn, bring the outside hip and leg across for a yoko-ukemi on that side, leaving him him to fall around me taking an accelerated outside sutemi with his arms now pinned agasint me.

If he turns to the side where my legs are he may even shift weight to my outside foot as he falls back, and allow me an uchi turn kokyunage reversal or an even deeper aiki-otoshi. Maybe he will even expose the head for a pivoting iriminage.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
b) The particular throws I was concentrating on were Daito ryu throws...some involved using sokumen step away while attacking the hands, then turning for a variety of waza, some involved entering with your hips directly into uke's waist and groin areas, and I tried a few of the Aikido breath throws as well. As my partner was better at aikido as well as wrestling than I, he could utilize little tricks of timing etc. to throw me off and thwart the waza...so it wasn't exactly a completely 'fair' exercise. But....that was the point. It's already not "fair" once someone get's behind you.
Sokumen iriminage is actually very close to aiki-otoshi, but directed at the upper torso rather than the hips directly , and the step is more definitive to the side and then back in. Aiki-otoshi from the reare attack is more a pivot-in, pivot-out while entering in and then step in and back. The close control of the torso grip makes true sokumen almost impossible. The set up for the aiki-otoshi I describe is however, actually very much a short sokumen step or hip turn, just with far less liberty of movement due to the close control of uke's attack. The feeling ( if not the movement) is very much like the tiny little pirouette tenkan done right as you turn the hips into omote koshinage. They both take your hips slightly out of uke's line of attack and place yours slightly in line of attack to him. It is just this litlle tiny hip kink that changes everything -- in much the same way that the little katatedori kokyu movement dissipates all attacking power.

I cannot emphasize enough how even a little juji (crossing) orientation of the body with the shift complicates the problem for the rear attacker, or any take-down attack for that matter. We do this in ushiro kubishime all the time. Basically, if I could get my hips substantially out of the way of his as he does his thurst forward he would perform the kokyunage/aiki-otoshi on himself..

If you were just going directly back with the hips to counter his rotation of his hips forward, that is perilously close to resistance, and thus not aiki. If I create progressively perpendicular orientation of movement and position it begins to eliminate any initial force or timing contest, while still fundamentally altering his required rotation dynamic. If he had you in a two-armed kata-gatame ( or a simple kubishime to start with, this would only tighten the pressure on your neck. Those attacks would probably not go to suplex as they are a bit too high, and would favor koshinage because of the inital assymetry.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
c) If I get an opportunity, I'll print out some of your suggestions and try them with Budd sometime...I have a feeling I know what;s going to happen...but I'd like to try anyway!

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-10-2006, 10:08 AM   #217
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Excellent stuff...will definately look to encouraging these methods of ukemi/sutemi/entry to waza in my practice.

Quote:
If you were just going directly back with the hips to counter his rotation of his hips forward, that is perilously close to resistance, and thus not aiki.
Well, one man's aiki is another man's jutsu...the movement in Daito ryu (from my limited experience) is quite powerfull...hips go back into uke, shoulders round and come forward, achieves excellent kuzushi, and there are many ways to finish from there. One problem I've found though is that it can become a timing game when dealing with larger, stronger, and or faster uke. For it to be aiki in my definition requires exquisite timing at that point.

Don, what do you think of these methods when employed with the attack described? Budd, you are familiar with the attack...what do you think?

Best,
Ron

B

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 08-10-2006, 11:27 AM   #218
Budd
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Don, what do you think of these methods when employed with the attack described? Budd, you are familiar with the attack...what do you think?
Best,
Ron
B
The easy answer is don't let anyone take your back

If you're taken by surprise by someone skilled, IMO, 9/10 times you're going get dropped (I made up that statistic, don't ask me for references).

But as far as aiki or grappling responses, I'd say keep your hips low, widen your base and try to create space to turn into them to counter, escape or have the best position should you both go down to the ground.

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Old 08-10-2006, 12:20 PM   #219
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
I would point out there is nothing pre-arranged about my sparing/competition matches.
Except for the rules, of course.
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:24 PM   #220
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

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Don Magee wrote:
Further proof than that, I suggest picking fights.
OK kids...If you are reading this,
DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!
Don is a trained professional.
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:25 PM   #221
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

I don't know...people often make the statement that in aikido, there are no rules...but in actual practice, there are plenty of rules. I have trained in a large number of different dojo in different associations and sometimes on different continents...

But there were always rules...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:01 PM   #222
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Excellent stuff...will definately look to encouraging these methods of ukemi/sutemi/entry to waza in my practice.
...
Well, one man's aiki is another man's jutsu...the movement in Daito ryu (from my limited experience) is quite powerfull...hips go back into uke, shoulders round and come forward, achieves excellent kuzushi, and there are many ways to finish from there. One problem I've found though is that it can become a timing game when dealing with larger, stronger, and or faster uke. For it to be aiki in my definition requires exquisite timing at that point.
I'm all cool with the depth and strength of irimi driving back -- but the little bit of eccentricity imparted by the hip turn in conjunction with the entry:

1) does not stop the desired forward movement of uke's opposite hip (and thus is more aiki), and

2) imparts torsional rotation by connecting with uke's near hip that exacerbates any kuzushi commenced by the rearward irimi (promoting (if not requiring) his eventual turn to that side, and thus giving me more time/space to work the kaeshi waza.

3) creates the juji problem for his intended throw -- literally a kind of standing cross control

4) should help the timing problem since by making an offset nage is no longer racing uke for the initial common center, he can have it if he wants because the center has moved elsewhere by virtue of the turn, uke's bowed in position is not ideal to sense the change in musubi.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:19 PM   #223
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I don't know...people often make the statement that in aikido, there are no rules...but in actual practice, there are plenty of rules. I have trained in a large number of different dojo in different associations and sometimes on different continents...

But there were always rules...
Rules for training -- no rules on what we train for.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:37 PM   #224
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote:
Rules for training -- no rules on what we train for.
But you will fight like you train. Under stress most people will fall back on what was is drilled into their core. A good example of this is a friend of mine who was in karate. They did light/ no contact point sparing. The hardest thing for him to do when we spar is connect a good shot. It is ingrained into him to pull his punches. If you never actually do the 'illegal' techniques, you have much less chance of using them under a high stress load.

Btw, my suggesting you pick fights for proof was sarcasm :-)

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-10-2006, 01:37 PM   #225
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Re: Aikido on the ground, questions.

Are you suggesting that in an actual altercation you'll suddenly start doing all sorts of things that you haven't done in training?

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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