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Old 02-27-2017, 04:08 PM   #51
sorokod
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
Stephan Schröder wrote: View Post
The only thing i state is that not every kind of Ukemi is correct
That is so obviously true, that taking the time to set up a demonstration of its correctness is suspicious to me. Suspicious in the sense that indeed, "who is to say" what is correct or incorrect.

Quote:
We talked about two extreme kinds of ukemi: total blocking and following everything ("Stockholm Syndrome").
Seems that you are implying that I presented this as a dichotomy and think that one of them is correct - both are obviously silly.

A participant in a conflict balances two contradictory goals:

1. To achieve an objective which can be: inflicting physical damage, taking away the opponent's freedom of movement, etc...

2. To do so while incurring an acceptable level of damage.

While there are infinite combinations and ratios of 1 and 2 that depend on personalities, objectives, time of day and so on, fundamentally this is it. Situation in which one or the other are completely absent are not (to use your expression) "interesting" in the martial context. The kind of training seen in the video, the one you call "Reactive total following", manages to drop both 1 and 2 and so martially irrelevant.

While the contradictory goals are very simple and even primitive, the balance of the two, causes an emergence of a connection between opponents where each interprets and and reacts to the actions of the other in the context of 1 and 2. Here is how such connection looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9EpY6PirZw . You may even say that this a study in staying connected.

I may be completely off the mark but it seems that Watanabe is interested is examining some sort of laboratory-distilled, 100%-pure connection while doing away with the "unnecessary baggage", the "baggage" that in my opinion gives birth to the real thing and without which the whole exercise is devoid of content.

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Old 02-27-2017, 09:17 PM   #52
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Why would you put Endo and Watanabe in the same territory to begin with?
I would agree that Endo Sensei isn't as OTT with his no-touch stuff but both are leading their opponents in a similar way in my opinion. I write this having witnessed both teachers first hand, including taking ukemi for Endo Sensei. People whose opinions I trust have taken ukemi for Watanabe Sensei.

I think Hirosawa Shihan strays into the same territory, but his foundation is still connection through intention.
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Are you confusing him with Takeda Yoshinobu?
No, but I think he is doing this kind of thing too.
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi Carl.
I do not really disagree with your post, but I'm a bit tired of fellow Iwamaers acting like they know everything and have seen everything.
They're almost as bad as people who talk about internal strength and… (shudder)… REAL AIKI.
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Old 02-28-2017, 01:38 AM   #53
grondahl
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I would agree that Endo Sensei isn't as OTT with his no-touch stuff but both are leading their opponents in a similar way in my opinion. I write this having witnessed both teachers first hand, including taking ukemi for Endo Sensei. People whose opinions I trust have taken ukemi for Watanabe Sensei.

I think Hirosawa Shihan strays into the same territory, but his foundation is still connection through intention.
I have also taken ukemi for Endo (everybody that visits one of his seminars have), but I have never actually seen him do any no touch-stuff, either live or on Youtube. I have not grabbed him in an Iwama-fashion but I have done that with several of his swedish students and I would say that most of them can move from a strong grip at least as well as Iwama students on the same level.
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Old 02-28-2017, 03:54 AM   #54
StephanS
 
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
That is so obviously true, that taking the time to set up a demonstration of its correctness is suspicious to me. Suspicious in the sense that indeed, "who is to say" what is correct or incorrect.
I set this up in reaction to Peter's "the uke was (wrongly, in my opinion) made to feel that he had made a major mistake". I wanted to say, that maybe uke did a mistake (of course i wasn't there, but Peter was ), although not a major, but a common one (for beginners).

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
A participant in a conflict balances two contradictory goals:
1. To achieve an objective which can be: inflicting physical damage, taking away the opponent's freedom of movement, etc...
2. To do so while incurring an acceptable level of damage.
The problem is that you don't know what level of damage your opponent is about to dish out. And i'm pretty sure your lizard brain is telling you, that if you go in to hurt the other guy, the other guy can/will hurt you too, if given the chance. So you better go in with all your force.
That's the major difference between martial sport and martial art. A strategy that gives a a 66% chance of winning is totally ok in a sport (you'll win by points) but evolution took probably care of all lizards that deemed this acceptable in a life-and-death encounter (which is potentially every single one).
That's also (imho) the reason Aikido works bad inside a ring, it's simply not made for a too rational of a situation. (Well, that and that most professional fighters train way more. But that's why professional fighters don't choose to try to make Aikido "work" in the ring.)
Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
The kind of training seen in the video, the one you call "Reactive total following", manages to drop both 1 and 2 and so martially irrelevant.
I disagree, not that the training in the video drops both points, but that it's therefore martially irrelevant. The medium of transmission of martially relevant information has not to be martially itself, e.g. reading "The Art of War" can improve my understanding of a martial situation. In the same way Watanabe's training can provide you with insights (i'm deliberately foggy here because i'm still working on the details of what these insights might be ) that are relevant within a martial context as well.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Here is how such connection looks like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9EpY6PirZw . You may even say that this a study in staying connected.
Looks good.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I may be completely off the mark but it seems that Watanabe is interested is examining some sort of laboratory-distilled, 100%-pure connection while doing away with the "unnecessary baggage", the "baggage" that in my opinion gives birth to the real thing and without which the whole exercise is devoid of content.
Sounds good, with the exception that i'd say the "baggage" gives birth to the application, while the 100%-pure connection is telling us something (yeap, i'm foggy again) about humans per se.
(either that or this is my "severe intellectual contortion")

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Old 02-28-2017, 03:54 AM   #55
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I would agree that Endo Sensei isn't as OTT with his no-touch stuff...
I am practicing with Endō sensei for over ten years now. I have never experienced "no-touch -stuff" from sensei. Nor from one of his students. Actually I've heard him say very often that he does not like it. On the contrary: He teaches strong grips for uke.
Thad said, I would be very interested when and where you did Endō sensei see doing "no-touch-stuff"? or even experienced that?

My direct teacher here in Germany practiced with Yamaguchi sensei and also with Watanabe sensei during his years in Japan.
He can explain, what the no touch exercises of Watanabe sensei mean. He himself can reproduce some of it. And he can teach it.
It isn't mystic stuff, but has developped from the very clear kihon waza, Watanabe sensei teaches.

The thing the girls try to practice is not that spooky. It's a simple way of extending to the fullest, which will make uke collapse ... if done right.

I think, it's hard to judge something you don't know by experience ...
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Old 02-28-2017, 05:36 AM   #56
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
They're almost as bad as people who talk about internal strength and… (shudder)… REAL AIKI.
Touché.
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Old 02-28-2017, 06:08 AM   #57
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I am practicing with Endō sensei for over ten years now. I have never experienced "no-touch -stuff" from sensei. Nor from one of his students. Actually I've heard him say very often that he does not like it. On the contrary: He teaches strong grips for uke.
Thad said, I would be very interested when and where you did Endō sensei see doing "no-touch-stuff"? or even experienced that?
It was just one seminar, which a friend and I were very fortunate to be allowed to attend in Nagoya. There were a lot of people there, but I got picked out as uke twice. The second time did not go so well. He began the training with the atari principle for the first half and was doing barely-touching into no-touch (a matter of centimetres) by the end. That was where things didn't go so well for me as his uke. I'm still not sure what was expected of me.

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I have also taken ukemi for Endo (everybody that visits one of his seminars have), but I have never actually seen him do any no touch-stuff, either live or on Youtube. I have not grabbed him in an Iwama-fashion but I have done that with several of his swedish students and I would say that most of them can move from a strong grip at least as well as Iwama students on the same level.
Perhaps my experience was rare. I only trained with him for one seminar. In any case, whether it is a couple of metres, a couple of centimetres or touching, my feeling is that both Watanabe and Endo Senseis are being blended with by uke. That may end up happening with Hirosawa too when he and his uke get carried away, but I think his core method of connection is different.

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I think, it's hard to judge something you don't know by experience ...
This is true and I do try to keep an open mind regarding what Endo Shihan is doing.
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Old 02-28-2017, 07:06 PM   #58
Currawong
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

I recall going to Endo Sensei's classes at Hombu many years ago, and more than once he picked out a big and very strong foreigner (name forgotten, but that he gave me concussion has not been) to practice with, whom even he was challenged to, but not incapable of moving.

I can see a teacher developing a higher degree of precision and sensitivity in their practice, but also taking it over the edge to the point it gets silly, as seems to have happened with a few teachers. I can't help but feel that if a teacher moves their hands, weaponless, and their uke, still a few feet away, falls over, that is ridiculous.

Something like Aiki-ken would be an exception, since to avoid injury such sensitivity is important, and contact is most certainly not desired if tori goes for your face with the pointy end.

My concern, watching the students, and remote dojos of one, is that they then adopt a slight-touch or even no-touch practice method that becomes the norm, at the expense of all-round capability that includes strong grabs, among other things. That is, they are imitating the style of movement rather than developing the same capabilities as their teacher, and not practice anything much more than a form of dance.
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Old 03-21-2017, 10:22 AM   #59
arturolczykowski
 
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

https://youtu.be/WN9V4PFUdqg

This is how it ends in real life :-)

"The Ki that can be told is not the eternal Ki"
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:14 PM   #60
Physasst
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Re: What do you say when you see Aikido done like this?

I call BS. I get that people are working on internal stuff at times, but this is nonsense. I love Tissier Shihan's discussion on this.

http://www.christiantissier.com/tiss...ticles-01.html

Sensei Tissier : They are two different things. On the one hand people who talk about ki, and on the other the ones who practise aikido like Sensei Watanabe. He developed something in which he is especially interested in: it isn't a ki work but one of anticipation, sensations, whether you like it or not, or whether it works or not. It works when you know the code, but martially it doesn't work. Being in Japan I worked a lot with him, Watanabe wasn't like this before. He is a physically solid practicant who wanted to develop something different. I think that if I were head of an examination table I wouldn't take what he produces.
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