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Old 05-26-2017, 06:58 PM   #1
MrIggy
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"Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

Panel Discussion: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Corky Quakenbush, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Roy Dean, & Miles Kessler. This session is from the "Aikido At The Leading Edge" telesummit, and was recorded on May 17th, 2017:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkYeAncP9Go

Thoughts?
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Old 05-27-2017, 04:38 AM   #2
Demetrio Cereijo
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Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Thoughts?
A complete waste of time.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:18 PM   #3
bothhandsclapping
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

I had a very, very savvy boss who was dubious about any reference book over 1/2" thick. Is it any wonder that TED talks are limited to 20 minutes?

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
"The universe, aikido, the mind - both hands clapping!"
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Old 05-28-2017, 02:38 AM   #4
dps
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

If I take a butter knife from my kitchen drawer and use it to tighten the screws on the kitchen cabinet , is it still a butter knife or now a screw driver?

dps
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Old 05-28-2017, 05:15 PM   #5
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Re:

When the only tool somone knows how to use is a hammer, does that mean that they should conclude that a hand plane is not also a tool?
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Old 05-29-2017, 08:10 PM   #6
senshincenter
 
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

Aikido practitioners should make up their mind on what they want Aikido to be and do. In doing that, from a martial perspective, I think Aikido should not feel pressed to address the dueling discourse that currently dominates our self-defense commercial market. Philosophically, I think Aikidoka should stick to their arena of dealing with assaultive behavior and mentalities because there is a deeper and more useful truth in that than in trying to figure out how to apply Aikido to dueling environments. Even commercially, I think Aikidoka should again stick to this position. There is no way, in my opinion, that Aikido can address the combative assumptions of the dueling culture without either doing so poorly or without degenerating the art into something it is not, or something in the end that is incapable of addressing assaultive behavior and/or combat environments. Today, popular Aikido is primarily populated by two groups: one group that further insulates itself from the larger martial purpose, and one group that feels pressed to identify Aikido with and in terms of the MMA discourse. The first group is slowing losing its numbers, like any group that stays away from others, and the second group is losing their art. I would propose a third option be found and practiced, one that acknowledges that the problem is not that the art is traditional but that we are not traditional enough in our understanding of the art.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 05-30-2017, 07:55 AM   #7
lbb
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

My thought: I wish I had the free time to waste on this twaddle.
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Old 05-30-2017, 11:32 AM   #8
tlk52
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

David Valdez makes a very good point
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Old 05-30-2017, 06:42 PM   #9
Currawong
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Re:

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Aikido practitioners should make up their mind on what they want Aikido to be and do. In doing that, from a martial perspective, I think Aikido should not feel pressed to address the dueling discourse that currently dominates our self-defense commercial market. Philosophically, I think Aikidoka should stick to their arena of dealing with assaultive behavior and mentalities because there is a deeper and more useful truth in that than in trying to figure out how to apply Aikido to dueling environments. Even commercially, I think Aikidoka should again stick to this position. There is no way, in my opinion, that Aikido can address the combative assumptions of the dueling culture without either doing so poorly or without degenerating the art into something it is not, or something in the end that is incapable of addressing assaultive behavior and/or combat environments. Today, popular Aikido is primarily populated by two groups: one group that further insulates itself from the larger martial purpose, and one group that feels pressed to identify Aikido with and in terms of the MMA discourse. The first group is slowing losing its numbers, like any group that stays away from others, and the second group is losing their art. I would propose a third option be found and practiced, one that acknowledges that the problem is not that the art is traditional but that we are not traditional enough in our understanding of the art.
Good points I reckon. There is a degree of irony in the fact that many people start Aikido with aims towards avoiding conflict, from the fact that there are no competitions as much as the ideal of being able to resolve conflicts peacefully. Yet what Aikido really requires is resolving the conflicts within ourselves, which many people don't want to face, especially in the dojo.
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Old 05-30-2017, 11:08 PM   #10
senshincenter
 
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Re:

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Amos Barnett wrote: View Post
Good points I reckon. There is a degree of irony in the fact that many people start Aikido with aims towards avoiding conflict, from the fact that there are no competitions as much as the ideal of being able to resolve conflicts peacefully. Yet what Aikido really requires is resolving the conflicts within ourselves, which many people don't want to face, especially in the dojo.
An excellently point.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:24 PM   #11
Adam Huss
 
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Re:

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Amos Barnett wrote: View Post
Good points I reckon. There is a degree of irony in the fact that many people start Aikido with aims towards avoiding conflict, from the fact that there are no competitions as much as the ideal of being able to resolve conflicts peacefully. Yet what Aikido really requires is resolving the conflicts within ourselves, which many people don't want to face, especially in the dojo.
This is why my teacher made it a point to include mirrors as much as he could on the dojo walls. The encouragement being to see your reflection and "cut down all the imperfections you see in yourself"

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 06-30-2017, 04:20 AM   #12
earnest aikidoka
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Re:

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Aikido practitioners should make up their mind on what they want Aikido to be and do. In doing that, from a martial perspective, I think Aikido should not feel pressed to address the dueling discourse that currently dominates our self-defense commercial market. Philosophically, I think Aikidoka should stick to their arena of dealing with assaultive behavior and mentalities because there is a deeper and more useful truth in that than in trying to figure out how to apply Aikido to dueling environments. Even commercially, I think Aikidoka should again stick to this position. There is no way, in my opinion, that Aikido can address the combative assumptions of the dueling culture without either doing so poorly or without degenerating the art into something it is not, or something in the end that is incapable of addressing assaultive behavior and/or combat environments. Today, popular Aikido is primarily populated by two groups: one group that further insulates itself from the larger martial purpose, and one group that feels pressed to identify Aikido with and in terms of the MMA discourse. The first group is slowing losing its numbers, like any group that stays away from others, and the second group is losing their art. I would propose a third option be found and practiced, one that acknowledges that the problem is not that the art is traditional but that we are not traditional enough in our understanding of the art.
You're right. O'sensei did not duel others. He escorted people through battlefields and gunfire, and his students picked fights with Yakuza members and gangs.

You're right, Aikidoka need to make up their mind, about what they want to do. Aikido is a martial art, O'sensei founded it through combat, and all his students developed their skills through combat. In duels and otherwise. Aikido is Aikido, and Aikido is martial. So aikidoka need to ask themselves; are they training in a martial art? Or are they wasting their time?
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:02 AM   #13
phitruong
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Re:

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Adam Huss wrote: View Post
This is why my teacher made it a point to include mirrors as much as he could on the dojo walls. The encouragement being to see your reflection and "cut down all the imperfections you see in yourself"
my hakama and gi made me looked fat. does that mean i should practice naked to deal with that sort of imperfection?

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:21 AM   #14
PeterR
 
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my hakama and gi made me looked fat. does that mean i should practice naked to deal with that sort of imperfection?
Don't we all?????

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:19 PM   #15
LarsU
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

I suppose cliche speculation "My KungFu is better than Your KungFu and My Master can beat Your Master" will always be part of the human condition. It's a silly argument spawned by insecurity. How do you practice lethal force without hurting each other? There have been many methods. Train hard, train soft, spar, duel, practice basics, practice tricks, etc. Regardless, they all come apart in combat. The history of combat is clear. In personal combat, untrained amateurs can still beat seasoned professionals. The greatest swordsman can be downed with a rock. The most well armored knight can be pulled from his horse by peasants. The most elite soldiers of the British Empire were killed by Zulu spears, Indian tulwars, and American tomahawks. An overwhelming number of historical examples prove that even the most skilled soldiers still die on the battlefield. No amount of training protects them.The world's greatest martial artist is still vulnerable to a 2x4 to the head. Aikidoists choose to practice AIKI which allows for martial practice along with other kinds of practice - like ALL other martial arts. Is Tai Chi a martial art? Is Judo? Is Kendo? Is target shooting? Is MMA competition? Is conflict resolution a martial art? They all improve your odds of surviving lethal combat, AND they can all be defeated. Why equivocate?
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:56 PM   #16
Avery Jenkins
 
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

"is aikido a martial art" is a fairly ignorant question. Of course it is by definition, history, and intent of the founder.

I really think all of this anti-aikido whampering is being fueled by an incredibly sophisticated MMA hype machine. Just remember, that's entertainment, an entirely different animal than efficacy.

Avery Jenkins
www.averyjenkins.com
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:57 PM   #17
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Re: "Is Aikido A Martial Art?" - Roy Dean, Lenny Sly, Vince Salvatore, Corky Quakenbush

Of course the discussion goes to a dead end. The reason is that we all have a different understanding of the concept of 'martial arts'. From authors of Wikipedia we are dealing with so general descriptions that is impossible to use them for aikido. For example, is aikido really "martial" in the sense of being used or created by professional warriors? Or just a mental and spiritual development; as well as entertainment and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage? Simply, I suggest to get a common meaning of this concept before going further.
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Old 08-14-2017, 04:09 PM   #18
RonRagusa
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Re:

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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
For example, is aikido really "martial" in the sense of being used or created by professional warriors? Or just a mental and spiritual development; as well as entertainment and the preservation of a nation's intangible cultural heritage?
Why does it have to be one or the other? Aikido is a training system. It's applicable to varied goals that are determined by the practitioner. Instead of trying to shoehorn Aikido into a single slot why not just accept the fact that it's applicability transcends the classical idea of what a "martial art" is and proceed from there?

Ron

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Old 08-14-2017, 04:32 PM   #19
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... classical idea of what a "martial art" is ...
So, explain it, please. Maybe it will be a good start.
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Old 08-14-2017, 07:59 PM   #20
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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
So, explain it, please. Maybe it will be a good start.
""martial" in the sense of being used or created by professional warriors"

Seems as good a place as any to start.

Ron

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Old 08-15-2017, 06:31 AM   #21
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re:

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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
... Aikido is a training system. It's applicable to varied goals that are determined by the practitioner. ...
This is already a specific definition of Aikido, that is not gernerally accepted.

There are indeed practioners of aikidō who understand it as a certain budō, that is organized by the iemoto - System. Which implies, that it's understanding is not just open to privat opinions and determined by the practioner.

In consequence your opinion of aikidō, i.e. "that it's applicability transcends the classical idea of what a 'martial art' is", simply is not generally applicable. So some People can't proceed from there.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:48 PM   #22
RonRagusa
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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
There are indeed practioners of aikidō who understand it as a certain budō, that is organized by the iemoto - System. Which implies, that it's understanding is not just open to privat opinions and determined by the practioner.
And they're certainly entitled to train in a manner that is, as you say, "organized by the iemoto - System." But Aikido has grown beyond the boundaries of that same system. You may decry that fact but it's truth is demonstrable. One need only look at Tomiki and Tohei to see two evolutionary paths Aikido has taken over the years.

Training goals are objectives that may or may not change over time as the student progresses. Understanding Aikido isn't a matter of opinion, it's a process of discovery experienced by each individual practitioner largely based on personal goals.

Ron

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Old 08-16-2017, 08:58 AM   #23
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Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
Understanding Aikido isn't a matter of opinion, it's a process of discovery experienced by each individual practitioner largely based on personal goals.
I'm not sure you do not go away from the topic, but at least it does not bring me closer to a meaningful answer to the question discussed on YouTube as well here.
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Old 08-16-2017, 02:16 PM   #24
RonRagusa
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Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I'm not sure you do not go away from the topic, but at least it does not bring me closer to a meaningful answer to the question discussed on YouTube as well here.
Well, I was responding to something Carston posted.

So the original question: "Is Aikido a Martial Art?" can be answered by asking another question, namely, How do you intend to apply the tools that your Aikido training allows you to develop and hone?

Whether or not Aikido can be considered a martial art depends largely on how it's to be employed in daily life. People train in Aikido for many varied reasons and tailor their training to specific goals in line with those reasons. Ueshiba may have founded Aikido with strictly martial applications in mind but I think it's pretty clear that the art has evolved such that martial applicability is but one avenue open to the student.

Ron

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Old 08-17-2017, 12:08 AM   #25
bothhandsclapping
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Re: Is Aikido a Martial Art

Quote:
Maciej Jesmanowicz wrote: View Post
I'm not sure you do not go away from the topic, but at least it does not bring me closer to a meaningful answer to the question discussed on YouTube as well here.
Unfortunately, if you're looking for meaning, you will be disappointed. There is no answer, because, as you've already seen, there will never be complete agreement on the exact use of the term. From a non-academic perspective (popular usage), I like to tell my students that ...

"The fact is that most disciplines that are called martial arts are not martial in the literal sense (a combat art) and are not even martial in the TV sense (meditating and kicking ass). Most long-time students of the 'martial arts' have never meditated and have never actually ever hit someone with true intent and, likewise, have never gotten hit with true intent ... nor do they ever want to!

"From my experience, here are the usual popular usages of the term 'martial arts'.
  • For those who have never studied, a martial art is what they see on TV or at the movies - meditating for enlightenment and kicking ass.
  • For those who have started studying and quickly stopped, a martial art is not what they imagined they'd be.
  • For those students who have studied less than a year, a martial art is the belief that you can indeed learn how to kick ass. (The thought of enlightenment is long gone.)
  • For those students who have studied more than a couple years, a martial art is a good way to hang out with friends, to get a bit of a workout and to convince yourself that you are learning something useful. (The thoughts of both enlightenment and kicking ass are long gone.)
  • Finally, unfortunately, for most instructors, a martial art is one way to eke out a living.

And so, I think a more pertinent question is - "Is Aikido a self-defense?", as we may get some consensus on what it actually means to defend oneself.

Cheers,

Last edited by bothhandsclapping : 08-17-2017 at 12:12 AM.

Jim Redel BHC Aikido
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