Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2017, 11:04 AM   #26
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Philippines
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Ok, riddle me this?! How did you come to this conclusion? How do so many people come to this conclusion concerning Aikido?
movement for the sake of movement does not mean understanding behind the move. One needs to understand why we move certain ways, not only how.

O'Sensei once said that a student could learn all the basics of aikido if he practiced just three techniques: 1)tai-no-henko, 2)morotedori-kokyuho, and 3)suwariwaza-kokyuho. I have my own theory of this based on basic mechanical laws but others may not have a clue. The explanation to this only becomes obvious over a very long period of time. Ever wonder why you can do morotedori on weak people but impossible to move even an inch on people with muscular build. Not bragging but I think I can move everybody no matter what build because I know mechanics theory which I applied to very muscular people in the dojo. The move is trvial but not obvious if one does not understand mechanics..

The dojo is a laboratory and every aikido practice should be treated as experiments. One should postulate theories about techniques which should undergo tests through trial and error. If a theory holds true for all techniques, then it becomes a principle and you do this over time to collect principles. A true master collects principles, he does not collect techniques imo and this takes a lot of time..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2017, 04:37 PM   #27
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 822
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Steven Shimanek wrote: View Post
The aikido student in Seattle who used kotegaeshi to disarm a robber with a gun after studying for only 2 months...
Genuinely curious, can you provide more details? A link to an article?

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 01:57 AM   #28
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Philippines
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

I think this is the one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w-AXESIk
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 05:18 AM   #29
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 822
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Thank you. A (tiny ) bit more here http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...th-kotegaeshi/

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 05:49 AM   #30
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 332
Serbia
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
movement for the sake of movement does not mean understanding behind the move. One needs to understand why we move certain ways, not only how.
And it doesn't take 10-20 years to teach somebody this. The point is does your instructor teach you this or not.

Quote:
Ever wonder why you can do morotedori on weak people but impossible to move even an inch on people with muscular build. Not bragging but I think I can move everybody no matter what build because I know mechanics theory which I applied to very muscular people in the dojo. The move is trvial but not obvious if one does not understand mechanics..
If the "weak" person actually knows how to apply morotetori with correct body mechanics you ain't moving them for an inch either without applying proper mechanics of your own. The same is with muscular people. I trained with a friend who is very muscular, he has the forearms of a lumberjack, it took me some time to get the mechanics right, about a couple of months, so I could actually us it on him properly. After that it was drilling to the point it became automatic.

Quote:
The dojo is a laboratory and every aikido practice should be treated as experiments. One should postulate theories about techniques which should undergo tests through trial and error. If a theory holds true for all techniques, then it becomes a principle and you do this over time to collect principles. A true master collects principles, he does not collect techniques imo and this takes a lot of time..
Yes, but if you train in a formed martial system with already developed principles the whole point is to adapt those principles to your own body not to "rediscover" principles that are already there. Then it's mostly a waste of time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 06:26 AM   #31
Mario Tobias
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Philippines
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Igor Vojnović wrote: View Post
Yes, but if you train in a formed martial system with already developed principles the whole point is to adapt those principles to your own body not to "rediscover" principles that are already there. Then it's mostly a waste of time.
Our definition of "principle" seems to be different. You don't rediscover something if you havnt discovered or know that something in the first place.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 08:23 AM   #32
MrIggy
Dojo: Aikido Klub Tisa - Novi Sad
Location: Novi Sad
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 332
Serbia
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Mario Tobias wrote: View Post
Our definition of "principle" seems to be different. You don't rediscover something if you havnt discovered or know that something in the first place.
Yes you do if the instructor doesn't explain it to you. Like I said, when you train in an established system it's preposterous for somebody to train you in a way were you have to "rediscover" a principle. If he doesn't explain to you the mechanics behind the movement rather lets you dabble in the dark for several year my suggestion is to simply abandon that instructor.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2017, 03:38 PM   #33
nikyu62
Dojo: Aikido Club of American Samoa
Location: American Samoa
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 176
American Samoa
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

The links above are the incident i was referring to; I got a couple of details wrong. Thanks for posting the links...I share this story with my students to illustrate the effective use of aikido in the real world.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2018, 12:05 AM   #34
earnest aikidoka
Location: singapore
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 110
Singapore
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Grabs are the most fundamental part of Aikido training because that is the strictest test of one's Aiki.

Timing, distance and evasion are common throughout all martial arts. But not all martial arts are aikido. what makes aikido unique is the ability to move freely, without heed of any obstruction or restraint. That comes from mastering Aiki. Which is letting movement project outwards freely, while staying connected to the ground and remaining strong through one's centre.

The grab is the strictest test because your uke is giving you his force freely. He is committed entirely to the grab, which means he is at his most vulnerable as well. He can't pull back or resist any movement you do which would affect his balance. If your aikido can't even move an uke in such a state, what good is it?

If you can't do Aiki, what is 'AIKI' do?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2018, 01:50 AM   #35
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,352
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
This started off whimsical - but there really is a legitimate question here. As Ueshiba Kisshomaru said, "After all, aikido is a martial art." So i'm slowly working on a blog (slowly because I am gathering the data where I can). To whit: law enforcement and correctional officers who train in - and use - aikido on the job. I've heard from some correctional officers at a major penitentiary in California, and police in various parts of the country, most recently in the MidWest - an ASU student. Honestly I don't expect to have enough data for a year or so - as I'm doing this through informal conversations when I present training seminars to police or correctional officers - but the data so far is interesting. I've heard iriminage, nikkyo, ikkyo, unbendable arm (the guy tries to stand up and the officer places an extended arm out and the guy bumps into it and drops back in his seat).

Ellis Amdur
In the 80"s Merritt Stevens taught Aikido to law enforcement officers and correctional officers. He developed "The Merritt Stevens System".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=RYN7jGv27xg
http://www.mokurendojo.com/2014/02/m...ns-aikido.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKfK...ature=youtu.be

His son Moe Stevens still practices in Orient, Ohio;

"Just this Aikido"

Moe Stevens, 7th Dan
The Mojo
1470 Hiner Rd
Orient, OH
(614) 871-3268
mastevens@columbus.rr.com

Hope this can be of help.

dps

Last edited by dps : 10-08-2018 at 02:03 AM.

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2018, 01:57 AM   #36
dps
 
dps's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,352
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Avery Jenkins wrote: View Post
Forget the octagon. That's nothing but entertainment, and with its rules, referees, weight-matched opponents, good lighting, good footing and everybody dressed for the job (which is to score points), it has nothing in common with the "real world."

There is a time-honored tradition for figuring out how good your martial art -- and you, as a martial artist -- is.

Go to a bar. Down a couple of scotches. Insult a few girlfriends until somebody's boyfriend takes offense and tries to deck you.

If you eliminate the threat, then your aikido is good. If you get the snot pounded out of your, your aikido is bad.

Of course, this test misses most of the point of aikido, but at least you'll know if your martial art works in the "real world."
This is similar to how my Sensei Chuck Cycyk would test his Aikido. He started practising Aikido in the 60's. When he went to New York to attend Sensei Yamada's seminars he would go to Spanish Harlem to test his Aikido by purposely getting into fights. It worked for him.

It worked for me when I needed to defend myself.

dps

Trust only movement. Life happens at the level of events not of words. Trust movement. --Alfred Adler
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2018, 08:54 PM   #37
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,235
United_States
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

The interesting thing for me is that the real world is so full of variety.

I work with small children who are consistently violent and while most of the aggression is easy to absorb, a sharp pencil in a group of students I must protect means I have to be exceedingly careful, both for the initial attacker and those around me who might then react violently as a response...especially when we use pencils daily. If I severely strain the wrist of a student while protecting (for example) my eyes, that will be seriously and strictly evaluated.

My application of Aikido in these situations is nothing like what most of you are talking about, but it does still apply and works.

A key feature which I believe Aikido shares with any martial art, is the essential element of proactivity. The working is directly related this, as far as my meager point of view can tell.

That all said, I can tell "my" aikido (somewhat) works because I train with people who will do kaeshi on me if they can...often enough. They will point out a weakness or ask me if they can try something at a point where they sense an opening. In short, they test me at regular intervals. I will never go into the seedy parts of town to see if it works. I've known too many people who were sufficiently dangerous to know that is tempting fate, and I have a strict policy against that.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2018, 08:40 AM   #38
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,192
United_States
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
The interesting thing for me is that the real world is so full of variety.
THIS.

A friend and fellow gardener once said to me, "A weed is a plant that's growing where I don't want it to." Similarly, aikido "works in the real world" if it does what you want to, in the world in which you find yourself.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2018, 01:12 AM   #39
shizentai
Location: CA
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 16
United_States
Offline
Re: For everyone who wants to find out if aikido works in the "real world"...

If you don't at least practice jiyu-waza with sloppy hobo punches, kicks and tackles at the end of every class, your Aikido won't work IRL. At least not to a degree that is considered somewhat reliable. You need to develop basic reflexes to weird random attack vectors, which teaches recovery from "bad" techniques, as well as forcing "bad" techniques to finish, and finishing with half-baked self-invented techniques, which are all crucial to real-world application.

Testing Aikido by "being held strong" doesn't actually test anything. I can do shiho nage when someone's holding with their whole might, frozen like a statue. Then I can go to a Judo dojo, and have people grab with aliveness, which makes shiho nage downright impossible. Jiyu-waza is as close as a cooperative system like Aikido can come to generating a degree of aliveness. Get ukes to be slightly mischievous, pulling themselves out thru obvious big holes in techniques. It still won't work against Judoka, but it will work against untrained attackers, who are the majority of population. Which, considering inherent limitations of Aikido, is a solid goal to strive for.

Last edited by shizentai : 10-27-2018 at 01:14 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 30 10-15-2016 04:22 PM
Integrity in our Aikido Community Marc Abrams Announcements & Feedback 41 02-14-2012 06:14 PM
I'm Leaving Aikido Daniel Ranger-Holt General 122 10-07-2010 09:01 PM
How I Met Aikido rulemaker General 2 06-29-2010 11:02 PM
Aikido - Martial Arts - Fighting George S. Ledyard External Aikido Blog Posts 54 09-18-2009 07:23 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:53 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate