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Old 09-18-2001, 07:12 PM   #26
Brian H
Dojo: Aikido of Northern Virginia
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 102
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Screw Harmonizing

I guess I'm one of those previously mentioned "Martial Beasts." As a non-federal law enforcement officer I am not currently (might change real soon) entitled to carry a firearm on a commercial aircraft. Recent events show that any edged weapon larger than fingernail clippers are not going to be permitted on aircraft. I don't travel on business, so when I fly I generally will be with family. The old mantra of "Go along and survive" is dead, and so would a highjacker be if they attempted to take any aircraft I am flying aboard. If I have to go, it better to go alone (family and all) and not with 5,000 peers.
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Old 09-19-2001, 03:41 AM   #27
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
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News at 11: Terrorists hijack a U.S. plane by threatening the pilot with fingernail clippers and a toothbrush.

Sorry
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Old 09-19-2001, 07:15 AM   #28
aikilouis
Location: Germany
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 219
France
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One of the consequences of the tragedy may be that plane hijacks should become much more difficult now. Before Sept 11, the hijackers held the crew and passengers quiet because of the threat of killing at the first sign of rebellion, and because they could make them hope to survive if they obeyed their orders.
Now that the hostages have no more value alive than dead, nothing can prevent a general rebellion as seemed to happen on the PA crash plane.

Louis R Joseph

Last edited by aikilouis : 09-19-2001 at 07:18 AM.
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Old 09-19-2001, 01:08 PM   #29
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Deleted post!

Keith, I just realized you were in New York. I'll bow out in regards to further commentary.

Last edited by Erik : 09-19-2001 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 09-19-2001, 02:51 PM   #30
keith g
Location: New York City
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 5
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Erik,

Just wrote you a lengthy response that was posted for about 5 seconds when I saw your retraction.

It's ok man, we disagree. I greatly appreciate the sentiment of what you just did and it reminds me that we've got much bigger problems than debating this issue.
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Old 09-19-2001, 03:55 PM   #31
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
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Quote:
Originally posted by keith g
Erik,

Just wrote you a lengthy response that was posted for about 5 seconds when I saw your retraction.

It's ok man, we disagree. I greatly appreciate the sentiment of what you just did and it reminds me that we've got much bigger problems than debating this issue.
Agreed! Probably, we really don't disagree much at all on any of these issues. Worse for me, I posted something else, from another site, which certainly qualified as insensitive upon reflection.
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Old 09-20-2001, 07:59 AM   #32
Vera Cordwood
Location: South
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8
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Flight Attendants and Aikido

If two flight attendants were trying to keep men with box cutters from slitting their throats and getting into the cockpit, well, wouldn't it be appropriate for the attendants to know aikido? I know that even with my slight aikido training I would try to do something besides let them slit my throat. I wouldn't punch; I would try to get the wrist of the hand holding the box cutter and use whatever wrist lock I could to get that box cutter cutting its owner... then I would have his bulk as a shield against the other attacker... OK maybe I'd die but that seems to be likely anyway...
A box cutter is a sword is a punch is anything with force thrown my way.
All I mean by this is it seems knowing aikido is better than not, if someone is trying to kill you!

On another note, I always see people complaining that aikido isn't effective in combat, at least not without years of training. I disagree. I think the wrist locks are quite effective. Maybe not to stop a murderer or gunman but certainly to stop an asshole from grabbing my purse or my shirt or my neck. Or my butt!!!

Thoughts?
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Old 09-20-2001, 08:48 AM   #33
Caio
Dojo: Awase Dojo
Location: Sao Paulo
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24
Brazil
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I agree!

If you're going to die, and I really think that one can feel that, it's better have one shot to save your life than start crying or screaming.

I don't know, maybe I would cry or scream too, maybe not...

But I couldn't agree more with Vera than when she says that Aikido could prevent assholes from grabbing her shirt, her neck or even her butt.

These are the kind of situations that really happen on board...

Caio
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Old 09-20-2001, 09:34 AM   #34
Andy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 96
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Re: Flight Attendants and Aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by Vera Cordwood
If two flight attendants were trying to keep men with box cutters from slitting their throats and getting into the cockpit, well, wouldn't it be appropriate for the attendants to know aikido? I know that even with my slight aikido training I would try to do something besides let them slit my throat.
Right now, you have really good hindsight. If you thought that when the attacks were happening, you would have had really good foresight that these people would be killing you and using the plane as a weapon.

Quote:
OK maybe I'd die but that seems to be likely anyway...

No, it wasn't likely. Hijackings up to this point were hostage situations, not suicide runs.

As it were, these flight attendants most likely did not know that their plane would be used in such a way as it was. The thoughts that they had foremost in their mind were probably, "I have to stay calm and do what these people want. If I panic or try to resist, they'll kill me. Or, even worse, they'll start killing these passengers."

Sounds like an "aikido dream" to me to think you'll be able to sankyo the heck out of them to save everyone.
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Old 09-20-2001, 04:38 PM   #35
guest1234
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 915
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I would much rather see time and money spent on better pre-boarding screening/training and equiping of security personnel. Once these folks are on the plane, it is way too late. Period. And I'd like to see all the enthusiasm folks display towards their own ability to take down/out these terrorists instead be directed toward cooperating with the extra time/pain of security checks, and maybe forego those carryons and even in flight drinks (gasp ).

The problem now will be knowing the difference between a terrorist intent on killing all on board, a run of the mill hijacker looking for demands to be met, or some guy drunk/on drugs. And hoping that a group of equally inebriated hero-wannabes don't create a deadly situation.

When I travel I ask for an exit row, not for the extra room (often isn't any, anyway) but because I know that I don't drink, and have opened an airline emergency door and helped others out before (courtesy of AF training)---which is a lot more than I can say for my fellow passengers. I find it odd that it is difficult for me to convince the counter person (I guess because I'm a bit small) but they put big guys in the row who look like they'd have a heart attack if asked to pick up a coffee cup, let alone open a door---but they ARE big. Now in addition to worrying that the drunk across the aisle really can't assist in an emergency, I'm going to have to worry about his ability to correctly identify an emergency.

We can all talk about what should have been done on the flights, but as has been mentioned before, but not nearly enough, the standard way to deal with hijackers who say all will be well if you cooperate is---cooperate. The reason the last group didn't is they found out what happened to the first three flights. Now we will never know in the future, so the focus needs to be on keeping terrorists off the planes, and making the cockpit inaccessible.
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Old 09-20-2001, 04:47 PM   #36
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
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Re: Flight Attendants and Aikido

Quote:
Originally posted by Vera Cordwood
If two flight attendants were trying to keep men with box cutters from slitting their throats and getting into the cockpit, well, wouldn't it be appropriate for the attendants to know aikido? I know that even with my slight aikido training I would try to do something besides let them slit my throat. I wouldn't punch;

[snip]

Thoughts?
Dear Vera,

Have you ever been attacked by 2+ (or even just one) man who is calm, conditioned, knows how to use a knife, and is 100% intent on ripping your guts out ?

Have you ever been punched in the head by a man who means it ?

What about two of those men attacking you at once ? (there were at least 4 on the plane).

Sigh...

Last edited by shihonage : 09-20-2001 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 09-20-2001, 06:21 PM   #37
Vera Cordwood
Location: South
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 8
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Smile Aikido in the air

Dear Vera,

Have you ever been attacked by 2+ (or even just one) man
who is calm, conditioned, knows how to use a knife, and
is 100% intent on ripping your guts out ?


No.

Have you ever been punched in the head by a man who
means it ?

No. Not in the head.

What about two of those men attacking you at once ?
(there were at least 4 on the plane).

Sigh...

I wasn't saying that the flight attendants should fight the terrorists. I was saying that if I were trying to keep terrorists from entering the cockpit and they had already killed other people on board with the box cutters, it might be better for me to know some aikido than not. That's all.
I *HAVE* been the victim of crime, several times, violent and personal and involving a weapon, but that doesn't make me some kind of self-defense expert, so why ask me? I was just pointing out that aikido could be useful if someone was trying to kill me with a box cutter.
When I was attacked with a gun other people (OK, men) said they would have fought back etc. and I replied that they would have wet their pants. Someone was shot in front of my eyes. Fortunately, he didn't die. The culprit was never found. I'm not some kind of samurai warrior geek. No, really!
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Old 09-20-2001, 10:36 PM   #38
Andy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 96
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Interesting.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/...19-6357240.htm
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Old 09-21-2001, 09:05 AM   #39
Caio
Dojo: Awase Dojo
Location: Sao Paulo
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24
Brazil
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Sometimes I don't know why people train anyway...
"You will never be able to sankyo anyone"
"you will be ripped out"
"nikkyo will not work on real life situations"
etc,
We've heard all of this...
If someone is coming in my direction with a knife, and has already killed someone in front of me, I'll try to make things hard for him. This is the reason why I seriously train Aikido.
And I believe that Aikido still exists because sometime in the past it was used on life threatening situations and proved itself effective.
I know that some people train because of the spiritual context, aerobics, fun, meet new people, etc. I like all of that too, but I want to be able to defend myself if someone is threatening me!
So, practice Aikido the way you want, but stop this "this will never work" stuff. It's not good for Aikido's image I think.
Look, I'm talking about defending myself, I don't think martial artists are heroes, I really don't.

Caio
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Old 09-21-2001, 09:32 AM   #40
Andy
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 96
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Who said anything about "If someone is coming in my direction with a knife, and has already killed someone in front of me" and "I was saying that if I were trying to keep terrorists from entering the cockpit and they had already killed other people on board with the box cutters"? These are premises which people were not discussing before people pulled it out of thin air. What was being discussed was whether or not aikido would have helped in what seemed very much like a "normal" hijacking situation, in other words, a hostage situation.

Aikido works. It doesn't work all the time. It seems like some people here need to get that into their heads some how. Otherwise, you're stuck in the "aikido dreamland" of "Why, if I were the flight attendant and they were pointing a knife at me and telling me that if I cooperated in the hijacking, no one would get hurt, I would just sankyo them all to heck!"

Hindsight is 20/20, but aikido doesn't give you the special power to make your foresight that.
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Old 09-21-2001, 10:08 AM   #41
Caio
Dojo: Awase Dojo
Location: Sao Paulo
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 24
Brazil
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Hi Andy,

Quote:
"Why, if I were the flight attendant and they were pointing a knife at me and telling me that if I cooperated in the hijacking, no one would get hurt, I would just sankyo them all to heck!"
this is not me, really.

I don't think that this discussion will take us anywere.

I just feel that a lot Aikidoists are full of excuses when it comes to use Aikido out of the dojo if they have to.

I hope I never have to use it out of the dojo, but I want to be prepared for that, that's all.

Peace bro!

Caio
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Old 09-21-2001, 06:38 PM   #42
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 890
United_States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caio
Hi Andy,

this is not me, really.

I don't think that this discussion will take us anywere.

I just feel that a lot Aikidoists are full of excuses when it comes to use Aikido out of the dojo if they have to.

I hope I never have to use it out of the dojo, but I want to be prepared for that, that's all.

Peace bro!
Caio, Aikido classes do not teach you to deal with loss of fine motor skills, andrenaline rush, fear, and fight-or-flight syndrome, which would be all present in a real confrontation.

It's not Aikido's fault, because these things are something that the practitioner should experience and learn to deal with on their own.
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