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Old 05-09-2003, 12:35 AM   #51
PeterR
 
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Now Michael be nice.

I have sympathy for the Tai Chi people - they are required to be even more reactionary than the Aikido people to try to convince themselves and others of the martiallity of their art. At least we don't have to contend with grannies in the park.

Seen some interesting Tai Chi - but nothing to blow your socks off.
Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
But you are still alive after this "deadly" demonstration.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-09-2003, 03:16 AM   #52
Kelly Allen
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LOL Peter I was just thinking exactly that before I turned the page. Uncanny. Micheal your being bad.
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Old 05-09-2003, 06:45 AM   #53
Vincentharris
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Re: What do you think is the most gentle martial art?

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote:
What do you think is the most gentle martial art?

Personally I would have to say something like Brazilian Jui Jitsu or Judo newaza, not Aikido.

I think that BJJ's application against an attacker on "the street" probably does less damage than most Aikido techniques.

This is not about what style is better just about what is more gentle.
I think it's virtually impossible to enter into a combat situation and be absolutely gentle at the same time. Your attacker is trying to hurt you or worse and they're filled with all this 'negative' energy if you will. If you interrupt that energy from completing it's course which is poudning you into the ground or whatever, of course the end result is not going to be gentle. I would think that the only way to be "gentle" would be to duck and dodge until you could get away.

As far as Tai Chi is concerned, isn't Tai Chi just a subset of the Shaolin system ?

I could be wrong but those monks started learning these forms originally as a form of exercise to keep them from getting stiff and lazy from the constant hours of praying and meditation. Boddhidrahma was the guy's name I believe, right ?

I think the combat aspect of it didn't get discovered until a few years later. But then again that was almost 2,000 years ago so who knows ?

Optimists consider the glass half full, Pessimists consider the glass haf empty. I consider the glass is TOO BIG.
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Old 05-09-2003, 09:47 AM   #54
Kevin Wilbanks
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I don't think there's anything out of line with deriding claims of tai chi being "deadly". In fact, I challenge anyone who makes such claims to come up with one verified instance of a tai chi artist killing another person with tai chi, anywhere in the world... ever. I'm sure it happened hundreds of years ago in China, but let's here a reliable account of one death anywhere in the last century.

The point is, when one makes hyperbolic claims like this, one invites abrasive responses. Handguns are deadly. Sarin gas is deadly. AIDS, rattlesnakes, auto-accidents... there are plenty of things out there that deserve to be called deadly, but tai chi? I don't think so.
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Old 05-09-2003, 11:21 AM   #55
opherdonchin
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I personally have been killed by someone using Tai Chi, Kevin. It was pretty impressive and he made me swear afterwards that I would always bear witness to the deadly potenital of Tai Chi.


Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-09-2003, 11:22 AM   #56
rpnp
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i think thats all he wants to hear

Robert Parker

"All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts."

- James Allen
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Old 05-09-2003, 11:37 AM   #57
Cyrijl
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i think the original question has flaws...i'd rather fight someone who does aikido than someone who does BJJ. In aikido there is a principle about not intentionally inflicting pain on someone...i don't think BJJ cares so much for spritual things.

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 05-09-2003, 03:11 PM   #58
Jeff R.
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Quote:
Joseph Connolly (Cyrijl) wrote:
In aikido there is a principle about not intentionally inflicting pain on someone...i don't think BJJ cares so much for spritual things.
Uh oh.

Exercise and extend your Ki with conviction; feel its awesome power--just smile.
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Old 05-10-2003, 05:14 PM   #59
Michael Neal
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I think most BJJ guys would take it as a compliment that they don't care much fro spiritual things/
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Old 05-10-2003, 07:03 PM   #60
paw
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Quote:
I think most BJJ guys would take it as a compliment that they don't care much fro spiritual things/
It depends on the individual. Some people are very spiritual, others not so. Speaking generally, I think it's fair to say:

1. there's no universal "spiritual" standard among bjj'ers

2. bjj training focuses on the physical training much more than the spiritual

3. there's certainly a code of ethical behavior that governs practice, training and competition --- bjj'ers are not mindless, amoral thugs

4. like all arts, bjj has it's saints (profoundly spiritual people) and it's sinners (amoral jerks). I've personally met more sinners in aikido than in bjj, but your milage may vary

Regards,

Paul
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Old 05-10-2003, 07:16 PM   #61
Michael Neal
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Yes, at least BJJ guys don't smoke their Gis
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Old 05-10-2003, 09:49 PM   #62
Michael Neal
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Watch this ESPN special on BJJ and watch Helio Gracie, 90 years old, wrestle on the mat. He uses no strength just technique.

http://www.titanmartialarts.com/images/espn.wmv

You have to filter out some of the BJJ propaganda on this though.
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Old 05-12-2003, 03:43 AM   #63
gasman
 
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Quote:
At least we don't have to contend with grannies in the park.
That very granny could seriously maim you with what would look like a slap to your throat, while you were trying to take her purse...
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Old 05-12-2003, 04:32 AM   #64
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Sigurd Rage (gasman) wrote:
That very granny could seriously maim you with what would look like a slap to your throat, while you were trying to take her purse...
Don't worry I always keep my distance.

Be careful who you call a thief.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-12-2003, 02:54 PM   #65
gasman
 
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Hmm did not mean to insinuate anything, rather I was trying to describe a typical situation where tai chi would be applied. I will agree that it is not for the ring.

In answer to the gentlemen who doubt the training philosophy: Tai chi chuan is all about developing kokyo power as well as keeping an unmoving mind.
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Old 05-12-2003, 11:18 PM   #66
Grappler
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Hmm.. Probably Judo... Jiu Jitsu means "the gentle art", and Judo is a soft version of JJ.
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Old 05-13-2003, 07:23 AM   #67
ian
 
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
Is that really about tai chi, though? Or, you as an experienced mixed martial artist and bouncer? I would argue that most of what allows you to apply what you learned in tai chi in fights came from elsewhere.

I don't doubt that tai chi principles and movements could be incorporated into effective fighting. Doing solo forms, fast or slow, however, would only be the most rudimentary basic step in getting there, though, not the bulk of the training regimen.
Wow - Sigurd is absolutely right. Kevin you have a gross misunderstanding about tai-chi (this is not a criticism - most taichi that is done in UK and US is Yang style, which has become a softened exercise). If you were to ask me the main characteristics of tai-chi I would say:

- body conditioning

- development of internal energy

- sparring

- yin/yang

tai-chi covers all the defence movements you'd find in aikido, though they tend to be directed more towards causing damage. There is no ethic in tai-chi about not destroying or killing your opponent (though the yin/yang philosophy suggests that unjustified aggression may have bad repercussions), however there is in aikido.

Like any martial art, the gentleness can depend on how it is used. The tai-chi practioners I have met are much more of the opinion 'if they attack, you are justified in any defence' than any aikido practitioners I know.

P.S. have you heard of the competition Chiba had with a taichi practioner (ended in a 'draw')
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Old 05-13-2003, 07:28 AM   #68
ian
 
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Maybe we've got to the crux of the matter - although different martial arts can have a different 'character' most martial arts have similar techniques and the gentleness can very much depend on the practioner or style.

Aikido is the only martial art that I know that does seem to have a philosophy whereby minimum damage should ideally be caused to the aggressor (in some dojos anyway).

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 05-13-2003, 08:23 AM   #69
shadow
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Quote:
Kevin Wilbanks wrote:
All this talk about the deadliness of tai chi is exactly the kind of hypothesis and heresay that I was arguing against. Hypothetically, I could kill an assailant with a toothpick, if I poked in the right place... maybe I even heard a story about someone doing it somewhere once. This doesn't make weilding a toothpick a deadly martial art.

I think there are intriguing possibilities in the tai chi movement style. The relaxation could make for great speed, and the way they learn to transmit the force of the whole body through the limbs seems good. So what? Unless anyone has actually witnessed tai chi used to kill, I will continue to take talk of its deadliness as mythical nonsense.

Given the training methods, it seems pretty damned unlikely. It is well known in the world of sport and other types of physical performance that the carryover from training methods to performance are quite specific. If you want to be good at tennis, for instance, you spend a lot of time playing tennis, conditioning methods and elemental drills take a secondary and/or tertiary role. I do not think you will find one competitive tennis player anywhere in the world who spends 90% of their training time doing a 100-count slow dance that pantomimes tennis moves, the remaining 10% doing some kind of table-tennis drill in which moving the feet isn't allowed, and spends none of their time scrimaging or playing actual tennis, and has never been in a real game. Why should fighting be any different?
you are a fool.

happiness. harmony. compassion.
--damien--
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Old 05-13-2003, 08:52 AM   #70
rpnp
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i agree

Robert Parker

"All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts."

- James Allen
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Old 05-13-2003, 09:26 AM   #71
Kevin Wilbanks
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To put it bluntly, if pithy name-calling is all the communication you can muster, I'd say that says more about you. Good luck in life.
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Old 05-13-2003, 09:27 AM   #72
happysod
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Damian, not a very useful post (and very unlike your normal missives). At least give some reasons why you disagree so the debate can continue rather than degenerating into name-calling.

For my sins, I disagree with Kevin, but only in-part. If all I was ever taught was the slow, intricate movements of the form, even at "competition" speed, I'd have to agree with him.

Luckily, I've also been the recipient of the application side, which isn't always identical to the form, and have to say it can be effective. There are techniques very similar to nikkyo and yonkyo and one of the more frustrating applications for me to get was essentially an ikkyo but with a projection through a two-handed punch rather than through the elbow. Good fun, but I just can't get my head round some of the stances used...

Back on-topic: Most gentle martial art? I'd have to say any performed by someone totally confident (and able) in their skill with the intention not to cause harm - excepting pillow do, those feather are lethal...
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Old 05-13-2003, 09:39 AM   #73
opherdonchin
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Kevin can be very opinionated but he is simply not a fool. I also disagree with him on this one and I'd say, from my experience, that his post reflects ignorance of the varieties of Tai Chi practice that can be found. Neverheless, I found his post interesting and thought provoking.

On the subject of gentle martial arts: a friend of mine who is a sandan in Tae Kwon Do took up Aikido in part because he got tired of feeling confined to violence when faced with threatening situations. I think there is a question of where we start saying the martial art is being used. Aikido, for me, has always had a focus on how my bearing and attitude can gently discourage conflict. This is different from seeming deadly or intiimidating, which I would say are non-gentle means of dissuasion. I would imagine that the more gentle the lead up to physical violence is, the easier it is to be gentle once things do get physical.

Yours in Aiki
Opher
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Old 05-13-2003, 10:43 AM   #74
Ron Tisdale
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Quote:
P.S. have you heard of the competition Chiba had with a taichi practioner (ended in a 'draw')
Sniff. Well, there is more than one account of the encounter, and not everyone viewed it as a draw. Which is not to say that Chiba Sensei isn't one kick butt dude...he'd clean *my* clock but good!

From rec.martial-arts (in the good old days):

http://www.google.com/groups?q=ellis...num=2&filter=0

Ah...that's fixed it...

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 05-13-2003 at 10:48 AM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2003, 11:32 AM   #75
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Opher Donchin (opherdonchin) wrote:
I also disagree with him on this one and I'd say, from my experience, that his post reflects ignorance of the varieties of Tai Chi practice that can be found.
I have no problem with this assessment. I have not toured the US and Europe thoroughly evaluating all the tai chi lessons that are available. What Paul said resonates with me though, in that there is a great disparity between the proportion of people who talk tai chi up like its some kind of super martial art and the actual tai chi practices I've seen and experienced - some of which were not Yang style, but purportedly more martial. I think many people are easily impressed by tricks or fancily described demonstrations, especially if some air of the ancient or the eastern is craftily incorporated... often not thinking much about whether these have anything to do with proven usefulness or efficacy, or about what is involved in actual fighting or in learning to cultivate any complex athletic performance capability. This same propensity for ready belief is why so much quakery flourishes as so-called "alternative medicine".

Last edited by Kevin Wilbanks : 05-13-2003 at 11:36 AM.
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