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Old 08-30-2000, 07:00 PM   #26
Nick
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To think that you could use any true budo after a few months of training is naive. This is not to say you could not defend yourself, but to protect your opponent is the true aim of Aikido as expressed by O'sensei.

This is not meant to belittle your response, which was both well thought and well written. I just believe that protecting your attacker is important, and only if in no way you can do that should you try to hurt him.

Gomen nasai on my strong opinions here- but it was curiosity that brought me to this art, and the nonviolent philosophy that brought me to continue studying this art.

-Nick
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Old 08-31-2000, 10:44 AM   #27
Tony Peters
Dojo: Mt Tantalus, Kaimuki Judo club
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not talking months

Quote:
Nick wrote:
To think that you could use any true budo after a few months of training is naive. This is not to say you could not defend yourself, but to protect your opponent is the true aim of Aikido as expressed by O'sensei.

This is not meant to belittle your response, which was both well thought and well written. I just believe that protecting your attacker is important, and only if in no way you can do that should you try to hurt him.

Gomen nasai on my strong opinions here- but it was curiosity that brought me to this art, and the nonviolent philosophy that brought me to continue studying this art.

-Nick
My opinion is that even after years (less than 10) aikido can be hazardous to the practicianer because of its stylized nature of protecting the attacker. I don't beleive that any M.A. (with the exception of Shotgundo) makes a good self defence after a few months practice not to belittle your response (since you were so polite to me). You and I just differ on how we see it; though I doubt you would place an atackers welfare above your own you do spend more time/effort to insure his possible wellbeing; that is admirable...I certainly can respect it but I can't emulate it. For me it entails too much risk...I enjoy my life too much and prefer my risks to be of a differant nature. Not sure what changed my mindset on this because I used to whole heartedly agree with O'sensei's priciples but they just don't work for me now. I still enjoy Aikido though I can't play as hard as I used to because my reactions are differant now and thats not fair to my partner.

Peace
Tony
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
That's what makes my Thumper go
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Old 08-31-2000, 01:24 PM   #28
Russ
Dojo: Pacific Aikido Kensankai
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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You know, Stratcat pretty much sums up the futility of this thread and still we continue to succumb to the tempation of fantasy. It's like he never posted a reply at all and we choose to pursue the useless endeavour of hypothisizing about "would I, could I, should I......?"

I think anyone would be hard pressed to show that this kind of questioning has any value, (I mean specifically, "would I, could I, should I....,"), beyond making ourselves feel better via our own rationalizations about said hypothetical situation.

Why are we not comfortable with not knowing? (And hoping never to find out!)

I apologize for the harsh tone, perhaps I've missed the point that we're engaging in a sort of "mental jerk off". And if that's the case, this is just a bit of fun, a distraction, then fine. But if we're actually trying to engage ourselves with serious thought on training and living then I gotta ask why questions like this one tickle peoples fancy so.
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Old 08-31-2000, 02:03 PM   #29
Magma
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Ai symbol Shaolin Creed

I was told this was a/the Shaolin Creed, but as many things in martial arts go (at least in the west), I can't say if somewhere someone stylized this, or stole it, or decided that their philosophy needed a convenient, ancient handle to get it promoted...

Regardless, I think it has merit:

It is better to avoid than to block;
better to block than to strike;
better to strike than to maim;
better to maim than to kill;
For all life is precious, and none can be replaced.

That is at the heart of my training, both on the floor and off. So while I don't know what I might do in a situation bad enough where someone might die because of me, I do know that my feeling about myself and about that situation post facto will be heavily decided by how well I think I applied the philosophy above.

M.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 08-31-2000, 04:00 PM   #30
Nick
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That sounds like a samurai adage that O-sensei frequented:

"Try the utmost to avoid conflict. ut, if conflict cannot be avoided, than cause pain before you injure, Injure before you maim, maim you before you kill. And if you must kill, make a clean kill, for life is too precious to be wasted."

Also-

I will try to protect my attacker if possible. I try to live by that adage, so if I must turn to violence, I will try to use only what is necessary.

Kanpai,

-Nick
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Old 08-31-2000, 05:21 PM   #31
Tony Peters
Dojo: Mt Tantalus, Kaimuki Judo club
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sayings and such

I prefer the doctrine of Richard Marcinko, "Understand when violence is neccessary and when it isn't. If it is use it to the extreme, until it is no longer neccessary, then stop" (bad paraphrasing but you get the point).

Peace
Tony
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
That's what makes my Thumper go
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Old 08-31-2000, 06:54 PM   #32
Nick
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well, that's where our opinions differ, because, if after you use that violence 'to the extreme', the only point in which you may stop is if your attacker cannot be injured any farther. I don't agree with it, but it's your opinion, and I respect it.

Ja,

-Nick
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Old 08-31-2000, 08:46 PM   #33
Magma
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I disagree with your interpretation of Tony, Nick. The flag for when to stop the violence is when it is no longer necessary. It's just a way of saying that whatever you do, do with your whole mind. If that means violence becomes necessary, you commit yourself to it.

Don't know if I agree, but I think this was closer to what he meant.

M.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 08-31-2000, 11:42 PM   #34
Tony Peters
Dojo: Mt Tantalus, Kaimuki Judo club
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commitment

Quote:
Magma wrote:
I disagree with your interpretation of Tony, Nick. The flag for when to stop the violence is when it is no longer necessary. It's just a way of saying that whatever you do, do with your whole mind. If that means violence becomes necessary, you commit yourself to it.

Don't know if I agree, but I think this was closer to what he meant.

M.
Thank you...that is pretty much what I meant. I've had the oppurtunaty to train with a wide variety of Aikido sensei I've met some whose aikdo was indeed beautiful they had something that I will likely never get but would love to have (Aoyagi Sensei springs to mind) then there are the ones who think they have it but really don't (I won't name any as my opinion is just that, mine and I may be wrong) the ones that I really love to train with however are the ones that scare me (Apodaca Sensei falls into this catagory) I like to be pushed and I like to know the consequences of my F@#k up (Think Henka waza or worse). My first sensei had this same quality though in a completely differant style (he was a retired cop/H2H instructor). If one plans on using aikido in a Self Defence (TM) situation Committing to the complete action of terminating the conflict has to way out over protecting the attacker. The better you are the less chance you have of hurting him but thinking of his welfare is not thinking of yours. Otherwise the end will not be a win-win situation you strived for. This is a drawback of Aikido priciples in the short run. To quote something Ellis Amdur said recently on e-budo " 'aiki' arts are just a very very long way around to learn how to fight" If your goal isn't to learn how to fight, fine but don't fool yourself either.

Peace
Tony
Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow
That's what makes my Thumper go
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Old 09-01-2000, 06:30 AM   #35
Bussho
Dojo: Aarhus Shobukan
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Kill someone?

To kill or not to kill

Death is but a natural extenstion of life. I choose to use the least violent way of life, but only according to what happens. For else I'll be predefining things before they happen. With each choice I make, life/death is choosen. When choosing life death follows, and so the other way. So the question of taking a life confuses me.

Ciao
Terje
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Old 09-02-2000, 03:57 PM   #36
Tim Haffner
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Do symbol Aikido and Satsujinto

When I think about this subject, I like to refer to O'sensei's Precautions for Training, item 1:
The original intent of Budo was to kill an enemy in a single blow, since all techniques can be lethal, follow the directions of the instructor and do not engage in contests of strength.

Also, I consider when Admiral Takeshita arranged a demonstration before the Emperor for O'sensei in 1938. O'sensei originally refused saying that he would not show "false" technique to the divine Emperor. When Takeshita asked further, O'sensei said that if he was to perform "true" technique he would kill the attacker. Takeshita convinced him to perform before the Emperor, but was deathly sick up until he stepped on the mat. Yukawa, his uke, tried to compensate for the illness and attacked weakly, but O'sensei responded briskly and dislocated his shoulder. Gozo Shioda Sensei had to take ukemi for the rest of the demonstration.

Granted, this is evidence of O'sensei's Pre-war approach to Budo. As he got older, his thoughts on combat application were replaced with religious philosophy. This is understandable, but I would submit that current Aikido training emphasizes the value of ALL human life, but should not require anyone to lay down their lives at the hands of an attacker. The taking of human life should be avoided, but we can not embody O'sensei's mission of the love and protection of all living things from the grave.

Just my $0.02

Tim Haffner

Tim Haffner
meadatim@gate.net
"All energy flows at the whims of the Great Magnet. What a fool I was to defy Him." Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Old 09-02-2000, 04:08 PM   #37
Tim Haffner
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Wink Pacifism and Satsujinto

Just as an additional reference, I would like to quote Yukiyoshi Takamura sensei, the recently passed Soke of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu. This was in an interview with Aikido Journal, Vol. 26 no.2, 1999.

"A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impendind destruction of the enemy he chooses, non-violence."

I think that in order to truly work for peace, you must be in control of the situation. You can not make choices when an attacker is imposing his or her will upon you. If you can control your attacker then you can make these choices. However, there are elements of the attack and the attacker that are beyond your control and therefore you can not choose between Katsujin no ken and Satsujinto. If face the situation in Mushin, it is not choice, it is action.

Tim Haffner
meadatim@gate.net
"All energy flows at the whims of the Great Magnet. What a fool I was to defy Him." Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Old 09-02-2000, 05:50 PM   #38
Nick
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I didn't mean to say I'd be trying to protect only my attacker. In fact, if someone's well being besides my own was at stake, I'd be anything but nice (whoops, threw in 4 extra atemi before smashing you to the ground, sorry). I simply think that you should escalate violence one level above what is being given to you.

To quote a samurai adage:

"Cut my skin and I cut your flesh. Cut my flesh and I cut your bones. Cut my bones and I kill you."

I feel that too much violence is unnecesary. Personally I believe that we train so that our techniques will work just as well 'on the street' as they will in the dojo, no matter what the person pulls.

Also- one final thought before I leave you be for now- in this age, protecting yourself can be dangerous. Not physcially, but legally. A guy breaks into your house and you break his leg. He sues you and, thanks to America's wonderful law system, there's a good chance you'll be writing him a nice fat check.

I suppose the moral of my story is to just use your judgement.

-Nick
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Old 09-03-2000, 01:43 PM   #39
Erik
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Quote:
Nick wrote:
To quote a samurai adage:

"Cut my skin and I cut your flesh. Cut my flesh and I cut your bones. Cut my bones and I kill you."
Have you noticed that you are already cut before you respond? Too late and it's not blending. It's along the same lines of "turn the other cheek" which is fine and all but it means you've been hit and that can finish your escalation philosophy before it gets started. Like it or not, first strike usually wins.

I'm also reminded of something I've been told that the Dalai Lama said in regards to the Chinese. His comment was "we didn't do a very good job of taking care of ourselves." I don't know exactly how he meant that.
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Old 09-04-2000, 05:43 AM   #40
Cas Long
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Ai symbol Honest Answer......

If there was no other way to resolve the situation, yes I would.

If someone offers kindness towards me, I return a kind deed: this is Harmony.

In attacking one disrupts Harmony, & it should always be re-established.
Therefore, if my life was on the line, and THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY, I would do
whatever was necessary to maintain Harmony.

This is my personal opinion, & is as honest as I can make it......

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 09-04-2000, 09:28 PM   #41
Magma
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Chaos Theory Budo

Aghh! Nick, one level of violence more than what you've received? If that is the essence of budo then we're seriously missing something in our art.

That's Chaos Theory Budo:
In Times Square, New York, a man sneezes on a foreigner, and several escalations later, bombs are dropping halfway around the world.

I thought we trained to meet energy, turn it, and redirect it.

And as far as if you are waiting to be cut then you are cut and there is no getting around that - or the "first strike wins" notion - I think there is an underlying attitude behind the "cut my bones and I kill you" adage that was quoted above:

katsu hayabi ("moving with the speed of the gods"), OR,
ko no sen ("moving first after your opponent moves")

You discern your opponents intent and move accordingly. He may cut to cut through your bones, but you have already moved to a position behind him.

M.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 09-07-2000, 04:51 PM   #42
Nick
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"Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile to world and make human beings one family."

Also-

"Therefore to compete in techniques, winning and losing, is not true budo. True budo knows no defeat. "Never defeated" means "never fighting."

-O'Sensei

Something to think about.

-Nick
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Old 09-09-2000, 10:12 AM   #43
ze'ev erlich
 
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Do symbol

here are the five attitudes:

1. escape with no physical contact
(try to talk or just run away)

2. defend yourself without hurting him (arm lock etc,)in a way that the attacker is not able to attack again


3. hurt the attacker if it helps to keep him 'quiet' antil police comes.

4. kill him if there is a danger that he might do that to you or others before police arrive.

5. sacrifice yourself in order to save the others.




yours

ze'ev





[Edited by ze'ev erlich on September 9, 2000 at 10:19am]

Ze'ev from Masatake Dojo Rehovot
www.aikikai.org.il
Israeli Aikikai

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Old 09-12-2000, 06:57 AM   #44
Kensakiro
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Hello,
In psychological tests humans appear to have the ability and decisiveness to kill if driven to the point where they needed to. I think survival instincts would decide that at the moment of the encounter.
In earlier days samurai would kill immediately because you cannot waist time with someone. You cannot let them go alive, because they will come back with you with guns or with backup of buddies, friends etc. People get pretty desperate at times, given the right circumstances.
I don't believe one can say yes or no, but I do think that one should do what the moment gives you!
As long as you don't focus on killing someone!!
Thanks

Thank you
Kenji Sasaki
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Old 09-12-2000, 08:37 AM   #45
Highway
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Never having killed anyone before it is very difficult to answer this. If you mess with my family the possibility may exist, if you are trying to hurt me, I will respond in kind with a sufficiant amount of force,and maybe just a bit more for good measure.A rabid or insane animal needs to be destroyed, if you can disable it and let the law do the rest then you have dont your part.
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Old 10-04-2000, 04:18 AM   #46
David Harrandell
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I think that if your aikido is good enough, you shouldn't have to kill anyone. If you are attacked, and you escape with both yourself and the attacker(s) intact then you can be happy with what you have done. Of course rendering your attacker(s) unconscious is feasable, but killing, NO!
If you consider killing an option, then I'm afraid you are in the wrong art.
When you train, you should keep in mind that, you should be able to vary the amout of power you use on an attacker. For the sake of argument ,if a beginner decided he/she had had enough of your constant correction of a technique and they came for you with the intent of severely hurting you would you kill them to protect yourself.... I know I wouldn't. Likewise on the street, say someone knew you did a martial art and decided to test themselves against you what would you do... If you killed them you would loose a potential student and also part of yourself.

[Edited by David Harrandell on October 4, 2000 at 04:26am]
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Old 10-04-2000, 05:19 AM   #47
Kensakiro
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Smile

hello
agreed, if your Aikido is good enough.
Now have u ever read O'sensei's texts.
He himself says that Aikido is not perfect and sometimes it happens that someone gets killed and that's a part in life.
Now have you ever had a situation on the street when you had to save your life with Aikido?
If you have had a situation you know, if not, I don't think it's good to say that nobody is doing the wrong martial arts. It's nice to do Buddhism and phillosophy, but my frien,... out there it's real life and real threatening situations.
Thank you!


Quote:
David Harrandell wrote:
I think that if your aikido is good enough, you shouldn't have to kill anyone. If you are attacked, and you escape with both yourself and the attacker(s) intact then you can be happy with what you have done. Of course rendering your attacker(s) unconscious is feasable, but killing, NO!
If you consider killing an option, then I'm afraid you are in the wrong art.
When you train, you should keep in mind that, you should be able to vary the amout of power you use on an attacker. For the sake of argument ,if a beginner decided he/she had had enough of your constant correction of a technique and they came for you with the intent of severely hurting you would you kill them to protect yourself.... I know I wouldn't. Likewise on the street, say someone knew you did a martial art and decided to test themselves against you what would you do... If you killed them you would loose a potential student and also part of yourself.

[Edited by David Harrandell on October 4, 2000 at 04:26am]

Thank you
Kenji Sasaki
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Old 10-04-2000, 05:07 PM   #48
Mariahn Scarborough
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I nearly did

Many, many years ago I was attacked by two men in downtown Washington DC. I was an accomplished martial artist and I was in very good shape. Two men approached me as I made my way to the underground and one had a small knife that he threatened me with. I was wearing High heels and as I backed into the shadows I slipped them off into my hands.

When the man with the knife attacked me I blocked with my left arm and put my high heeled shoe through his temple with my right.

The other man ran away.

When I decided, late in life, to go back to school to get my masters in education I thought alot about this episode in my early twenties. My attacker did live, but he will never think quite the same way again. I decided to take this martial art specifically because I CAN kill someone if they are going to try to take my life. I know this and although I am not in the shape I was then, it was amazingly easy to hurt that man. I wanted to find another way.

Schools are becoming progressively more violent and I am fast progressing to "little old lady" stage. It is very important for me to be able to protect myself and not hurt a child or young adult who is out of control.

Another thing that I have learned over the past several decades is that if you project a calm and loving demeanor, most people, reflect that right back to you. Aikido has taught me how to extend that "ki" all around me. Even the really rough kids in the classroom calm down if I am calm.

I think that it is a given that any human is capable of killing another human, especially in a life threatening situation. The question I ask myself is, in a similar circumstance could I maintain my calm and NOT kill someone who was intent upon killing me.

Mariahn Scarborough
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Old 10-08-2000, 02:14 PM   #49
Brian H
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If placed under attack the perfect solution would be to bring the
aggressor under control without harm to anyone involved. That is
not always possible, The Bad Guy is often : bigger. stronger,
more numerous and is often willing to use options you would not
consider (bats, tire irons, guns, knives and other assorted bad
things) The Bad Guy is by nature a coward and will be more
willing than you to strike out to inflict harm.

Randori is rarely a controlled demonstration of Nage practiced
technique. There is no reason to believe that a REAL fight would
be different. Sooner than later you will find yourself desperate
and tired, with few options.

Many people say "I would rather die than kill"

They forget that if you give yourself to your killer you may have
killed those you would have protected. Crime is not committed in
a vacuum, it is repeated over and over.

By failing to act, you
will have harmed, even killed, your killer's next victim.

Your goal is to bring conflict to an end, you can not expect to create a perfect solution.
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Old 10-08-2000, 05:59 PM   #50
AikiBiker
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I hope I never have the chance to find out.

If I do get the chance I hope I get the choice not to.

If I do get the choice I hope I will make the right one.

Every situation and person is different it isn't worth it to me cloud my mind with speculation or doubt. We can only react as the situation demands, and may God have mercy upon our souls.

Later

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