Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Internal Training in Aikido

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-19-2017, 10:22 AM   #1
Silvère Thommerel
Dojo: Tenchi Paris
Location: Paris
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 8
France
Offline
Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Hello,

Looking at the video, which presents some Muden Juku Daito Ryu training/demo, I wonder if somebody could explain the point of Uke's apparent tensing after the attack (or is it part of the attack?).

https://youtu.be/k1IBNqGRLxs

Some other related videos on Youtube present the same kind of attacks. Could it be related to what Dan Harden calls "removing the slack"? Do some of you practise something related?

Thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 11:21 AM   #2
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 350
Ireland
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

The above video is really meant to be a clear demonstration of principles. It's actually a challenge for me as to how helpful it is sharing these clips openly on the internet, as outside of understanding the context of the practice, people can get completely the wrong idea about what's going on. That being said, the "tensing" that seems to be apparent is a result of uke maintaining intention and tori attempting to disperse and redirect while maintaining the point of contact.

For aikido people, some of the thinking behind this kind of training is well articulated in this blog, especially in the comments by George Ledyard re; static practice. I'm not suggesting that it's the same in terms of body organisation, but the approach and mentality is similar.

http://www.scottsdaleaikikai.com/new...-immovable-uke

There is a concept in this training called "hari". It's a very important fundamental concept. It refers to a kind of "tautness" that runs through the body. That's not a good word, but I can't think of a better english equivalent. Hope this helps. It's very difficult to really get anything across via internet.

Last edited by oisin bourke : 05-19-2017 at 11:24 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2017, 07:21 PM   #3
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 187
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Uke is tensing up because she herself is being "counter attacked". More specifically, nage is "entering" into and taking control of her structure. The "tensing up" is a result of uke trying to maintain her balance and/or force on nage despite the counter-force nage is projecting back on her.

In this video Dan Harden exhibits and explains the same basic thing. It's easier to understand when a person uses their arm to connect to uke as Dan does, but at a certain point you can learn to do the same basic thing through any point of the body and/or with less movement---as is the case with the video you posted.

That said, the amount of tensing up in the video looks exaggerated to me. There might be a training reason for it---as in, she may just be "following" whatever force she feels without any attempt to correct herself, as that helps nage practice his control---or it may just be a quirk of their dojo culture.

--Timothy Kleinert
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2017, 08:37 AM   #4
Mark Raugas
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

I would say the tensing is extremely exaggerated. I noticed the same group has additional clips on YouTube and was wondering if this was just a training exercise, as Mr. Burke describes below, or a much broader part of their practice. I found a clip where the first attack is with a tanto and a similar practice is done. I think that indicates that the behavior is a disease of their training environment and there likely is no real kuzushi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBiv6Qar3Jc

Notice that the uke is holding the tanto edge up, and at 5s into the clip raises her body up when nage presses down on her wrist from on top. It is probably not worth giving them too much benefit of the doubt, if that technique is indicative of their practice.

A quote from Dan Harden in 2012 here comes to mind:

Quote:
It is worth noting the prep work and grooming that goes on with these somewhat odd teachers, loooong before they step on a mat. It is easy to take real and actual skills, combine them with an ukemi model and mental manipulation and come out a boy wonder. It's a twice told tale that still sucks in otherwise solid people.

Last edited by Mark Raugas : 05-20-2017 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Added an amplifying quote.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2017, 12:49 PM   #5
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 350
Ireland
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
I would say the tensing is extremely exaggerated. I noticed the same group has additional clips on YouTube and was wondering if this was just a training exercise, as Mr. Burke describes below, or a much broader part of their practice. I found a clip where the first attack is with a tanto and a similar practice is done. I think that indicates that the behavior is a disease of their training environment and there likely is no real kuzushi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBiv6Qar3Jc

Notice that the uke is holding the tanto edge up, and at 5s into the clip raises her body up when nage presses down on her wrist from on top. It is probably not worth giving them too much benefit of the doubt, if that technique is indicative of their practice.

A quote from Dan Harden in 2012 here comes to mind:
Nage doesn't press down on the wrist. That's not where the kuzushii comes from, but it does illustrate the problems in putting clips out. People are always going to judge from their own POV.
Your comments about a "disease" and exaggerated kuzushi indicate that you don't really understand katageiko. This gives a good intro:

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/aikido...n-uke-and-tori

But I get that a lot of people find these clips strange.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2017, 03:09 PM   #6
Mark Raugas
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Nage doesn't press down on the wrist. That's not where the kuzushii comes from, but it does illustrate the problems in putting clips out. People are always going to judge from their own POV.
Your comments about a "disease" and exaggerated kuzushi indicate that you don't really understand katageiko. This gives a good intro:

http://www.guillaumeerard.com/aikido...n-uke-and-tori

But I get that a lot of people find these clips strange.
Very true that I don't understand. From my perspective there is no kuzishi. Just aiki accommodation syndrome. To each their own. However, from those clips I would not hesitate to spar anyone from that group.

Last edited by Mark Raugas : 05-20-2017 at 03:13 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2017, 03:27 PM   #7
Mark Raugas
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

But thank you for the link to the article. I will check it out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 04:16 AM   #8
oisin bourke
 
oisin bourke's Avatar
Dojo: Muden Juku, Ireland
Location: Kilkenny
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 350
Ireland
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
Very true that I don't understand. From my perspective there is no kuzishi. Just aiki accommodation syndrome. To each their own. However, from those clips I would not hesitate to spar anyone from that group.
If you're gauging what you're seeing on your ability to "spar" with them, you'll miss the point completely. It's using one criteria to judge an art that operates to a totally different criteria. It's like dismissing a painting by Picasso because it doesn't look like a photo. You'd be much better off gauging if the clips conform to the priniciples that they're intended to inculcate in terms of body usage, etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 11:21 AM   #9
Mark Raugas
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Not entirely.

I would agree it is true that each art's training methodology will have unique qualities and may only serve a purpose internal to that art. However, these are martial arts. So, they do ultimately exist in relation to others who do not practice the same art and need to be effective against them.

Are there better videos available of more normal waza from your group? Then we could have a point of departure for analysis, starting from the exoteric before jumping into the esoteric.

Kata practice is a useful methodology but can get corrupted over time. My comment about sparring is related to the ultimate expression of an art.

If you can in principle beat the head instructor of an art (I am not focusing on your group here, rather speaking abstractly), the one who has the gokui, then it doesn't matter what the kata or that they teach to lead up to his level of skill, because that level of skill is deficient.

Additionally, if none of be students can attain the skill of the teacher, even if the teacher has the skill, the art (kata, gokui, etc) may not be worth pursuing, even if the teacher is quite skilled.

Knowing how to make the distinction between knowing some essence of skill is there one needs to work hard to attain or the group is conditioned to make the teacher appear better than he or she is, is very difficult.

So, I would agree those clips are too easy to misinterpret, as possibly I have done.

Kata, when uke has to mimic kuzushi, so that tori learns a pattern, can fall apart. This is especially problematic when the traditional roles of uchi and shi are reversed or blurred. This can happen in kenjutsu as well as jujutsu. So, aiki no jutsu kata where tori is senior to uke, where there is a possibility that uke is mimicking a conditioned response, to please their senior, is a long standing problem.

Is Daito ryu Muden Juku ever do randori or sparring, even internally within the group? Do they ever compete in Judo tournaments, if there are Japanese students for example who already do judo in high school or college?

I ask because while aspiring to high level skill is a worthy pursuit, and having access to high level instruction is a blessing, stress testing is also important.

Last edited by Mark Raugas : 05-21-2017 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Removed mistaken reference to Roppokai after reading website
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 11:43 AM   #10
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,302
Japan
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Firstly, I have no issue with uber-stylized kata and certainly don't feel the need to demand sparing when I see it although I have been pretty consistent in lauding the balance of kata with randori.

But it would be nice if the original question were answered. The video shows quite a unique action by uke and I have trouble understanding what that is supposed to instill or demonstrate. It certainly looks deliberate enough that it just did not sneak in there and inquiring minds would love to know.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2017, 11:04 PM   #11
Rupert Atkinson
 
Rupert Atkinson's Avatar
Dojo: Wherever I am.
Location: New Zealand
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 940
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Looks to me like extreme uke training. I have no problem with that as a good uke will help tori learn too. However, too much of this will instil superman belief in the 'fool' and invite ridicule from onlookers. Good ukemi is an essential tool to learn aiki, even hard aiki, but too often it just creates paper supermen whose 'belief' in their own ability is dependent upon how compliant their uke is trained to be - a downward spiral to nowhere honest.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 10:33 AM   #12
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,114
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

It's been a while since I posted anything...

There seems to be a couple of different things going on here.

With regard to ukemi. For me, uke should respond to nage appropriately for the situation. During kata, uke should be an element of the kata - it's funny, but when we talk about kata, we will chastise uke for not moving right, but we forget that nage needs to move right, too. Nage is responsible for correct kata, too. During fundamentals, uke should should respond to nage to provide feedback. During sparring, uke can be adversarial. Just make sure expectations meet actions.

With regard to internals and slack...
O Sensei's famous "masakatsu agatsu" comment can be interpreted as a comment about balance within the body by removing slack. Something like, "stand without slack," is a translation of that kanji. One can look at the source and see the importance of that comment. I think its also important that the comment was not about removing the slack from some else.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 11:57 AM   #13
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,302
Japan
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
It's been a while since I posted anything...

There seems to be a couple of different things going on here.

With regard to ukemi. For me, uke should respond to nage appropriately for the situation. During kata, uke should be an element of the kata - it's funny, but when we talk about kata, we will chastise uke for not moving right, but we forget that nage needs to move right, too. Nage is responsible for correct kata, too. During fundamentals, uke should should respond to nage to provide feedback. During sparring, uke can be adversarial. Just make sure expectations meet actions.

With regard to internals and slack...
O Sensei's famous "masakatsu agatsu" comment can be interpreted as a comment about balance within the body by removing slack. Something like, "stand without slack," is a translation of that kanji. One can look at the source and see the importance of that comment. I think its also important that the comment was not about removing the slack from some else.
No comment on slack but Jon - in sparing there is no uke (or any other defined role) and I really do think that it is a rare instructor that emphasizes the correction of uke over nage. Perhaps I lost your point, I did get confused.

Still kata really is a balance between uke and nage and in the former case, at its most basic, we don't want uke moving ahead of nage's action (i.e. throwing themselves). At higher levels uke supplies different levels of resistance AND (to the point of those videos) other actions which provide feedback to nage.

I am still trying to get my head around what those actions in the video represent. The answers so far have been disappointing.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2017, 09:21 PM   #14
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 187
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I am still trying to get my head around what those actions in the video represent. The answers so far have been disappointing.
I tried answering the question back in post #3, but here's more detail:

First, it looks to me like both the standing and kneeling throws are showcasing the same underlying internal skill, despite the different setups (grabs) and finishing moves (throws). I could be wrong about that, it's hard to tell from a video.

Uke starts by applying a force on nage, be it grab to the belt or the collar. I'm pretty sure this is a "dumb" force, meaning a muscular (external) force that's applied in a consistent manner regardless of what nage does. In other words, uke makes no attempt to change or correct herself when nage begins his counter. When I've trained this way it was done for the benefit of nage alone, as it allows nage to practice his control/skill in a unhindered setup.

It looks to me like nage grounds uke's force and "reflects" it back at her in a way---I assume---that makes her feels as if she's being lifted up and pushed back. The "reflection" of force is an internal skill, and in this video nage does it with hardly any external movement. Because of that, it looks like uke is moving herself, but she's not really. She's being manipulated by nage. The "tensing up" and slow distortion of her posture is the "natural" reaction to the counter force nage is projecting.

I do think uke's response looks exaggerated, but it looks to me like there's some amount of legit skill there. I don't know anything about this organization, though, so who knows. (I also think Roppokai videos often look exaggerated, but by all accounts Okamoto has tons of skill.) For reference, here's a couple videos of Roy Goldberg distorting his uke's posture: tenchi nage & let's call it a "light touch" throw. Also here's Kodo himself doing a really slow off-balancing thing (obviously in an informal training environment).

--Timothy Kleinert
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 07:20 AM   #15
Timothy WK
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 187
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Adding to my previous post, the underlying internal skill---the reflection or redirection of uke's force---is very useful, even if the kata itself is unrealistic.

--Timothy Kleinert
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 08:31 AM   #16
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,114
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
No comment on slack but Jon - in sparing there is no uke (or any other defined role) and I really do think that it is a rare instructor that emphasizes the correction of uke over nage. Perhaps I lost your point, I did get confused.

Still kata really is a balance between uke and nage and in the former case, at its most basic, we don't want uke moving ahead of nage's action (i.e. throwing themselves). At higher levels uke supplies different levels of resistance AND (to the point of those videos) other actions which provide feedback to nage.

I am still trying to get my head around what those actions in the video represent. The answers so far have been disappointing.
I don't want to derail. My uke comment was directed at the observations that while many of us have several different perspectives about what uke should (or should not) do, I think matching expectations is most important. I suppose we can talk about labels on sparring partners and whether we still call them uke or tori or shite, or whatever. Listen to any competitive match and the commentary can usually identify someone controlling the engagement and someone defending. Sure, the roles may switch more rapidly, but they are still there.

With regard to the video, I think [presumably] its showing an internal exercise with a transparent uke illustrating where she feels her body is being affected. The slack question has merit for me because the idea is similar to pushing a chain. How do you push a chain? By twisting the links until they remove the space and join (adhere) to one another. Then you can push the chain. Adhesion through rotation, and all that.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 01:07 PM   #17
Scott Harrington
Location: Wilmington, De
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 85
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Watched the ‘aiki' video. Very nice. Was in a class yesterday that ALL the instructor worked on was the ‘floating' that you see here (from a one and two hand grasp.) Great class and great learning experience. For those that haven't felt it, your loss. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Couple of things. Attacking with the knife edge UP is considered a higher level of intent (lethal attack) in Japan (by the police.) A single sided knife (tanto / bowie) can be pushed down by the dull spine quite easily. Also the cut cuts deeper as the retraction will pull against the falling body.

Using Dan Harden as an example against "prep work and grooming" is funny as I distinctly remember him saying, "here, watch this" as he positioned my arms and then proceeded to loosen a tooth in my mouth (I vacillated on smacking him upside the head and wondering if this would cost me another $5000 titanium implant.)

As to taking ukemi, I also remember the first time ‘we' trained a police officer to take a high fall from kote gaeshi and he got up and said, "My wrist doesn't hurt!" Duh, that's why we learn to fall properly.

And that reminds me when I saw a Gracie competitor taking 6 aspirins before his match thereby eliminating pain tolerance but if cut in a real fight would have bled like a stuck pig. It also reminds me of the competitive MMA fighter who squealed (again like a pig) when a finger lock was applied.

There is a reason that wrist / finger / and pressure point fighting (yonkajo) doesn't make it into the ring. Too much damage and yelling.

Back to Aiki. Difficult sometimes to get right, worth it when it does. Takeda Sokaku worked on two principles -- Aiki and pain. To say otherwise is to discount history.

The best line from the comments here -- "Very true that I don't understand." So true.

Scott Harrington
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2017, 09:56 AM   #18
Mark Raugas
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Timothy Walters Kleinert wrote: View Post
Adding to my previous post, the underlying internal skill---the reflection or redirection of uke's force---is very useful, even if the kata itself is unrealistic.
Definitely. I am a proponent of developing internal skill. In Taijiquan, which is my focus, subtle off-balancing is a major focus of the training. I feel like from what I am watching on those original videos, there is a conditioned response versus an actual off-balancing. Maybe they are trying to show the idea of an action as an instructional reference. I would agree with Mr. Burke that they are too easy to misinterpret.

I did not find Scott Harrington's post very helpful in explaining anything. It jumped all over the map from high break falls to getting man handled at a seminar to statements about ignorance. I am not trying to disparage the original group, but point out challenges in presenting kuzushi from kata. It is also important to see what a person can do in an unscripted environment. Otherwise there is just a model of a skill, or a claimed pedagogy for a skill, and not maybe the skill itself. I remember fondly a colleague describing watching Kiyama do randori with several judoka, unscripted, and it was a sight to behold he would never forget.

That is the kind of Aiki that interests me and deserves utmost respect.
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 05:48 AM   #19
Currawong
Dojo: Shoheijuku Aikido, Fukuoka
Location: Fukuoka
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 98
Japan
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

I reckon it's pre-conditioned response as well. There just isn't any significant physical contact going on when you grab someone's label, even on a dogi. Maybe the really telling thing is this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGQrrhhNHm4

Where the guy is still unable to move even after contact is lost.
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM   #20
Mark Raugas
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 35
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

The next one is also challenging. With a full nelson and dropping weight on the elbows, there is even less body contact than through the collar of the dogi. Uke seems to stay spread out and then launch himself. I am going to move on to other discussion topics at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGLv0Wk8ch0
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM   #21
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo & Kiko - NY, PA, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 994
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Yeah, Mark, seems pretty clearly to be a rising (ground) and sinking (gravity) force direction exercise but very difficult to tell based on the choreography how much is genuine force management vs trained staging.

Taikyoku Mind & Body
http://taikyokumindandbody.com
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM   #22
Scott Harrington
Location: Wilmington, De
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 85
United_States
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Real.

Go grab Kiyama (father or son.)

Scott Harrington
  Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:06 PM   #23
asiawide
Location: Seoul
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 142
Offline
Re: Muden Juku Daito Ryu and internal training

Quote:
Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
The next one is also challenging. With a full nelson and dropping weight on the elbows, there is even less body contact than through the collar of the dogi. Uke seems to stay spread out and then launch himself. I am going to move on to other discussion topics at this point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGLv0Wk8ch0
Starting from 0:10, I can see the nage stretches front side to get more support from ground. Then it's possible to pull the uke if he was pulling the nage (holding collar => probably pulling). Then the nage adds little weight over the uke by bowing. Possible but I don't think the nage can do it out of lab.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:01 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate