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Old 11-09-2008, 05:29 AM   #76
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
There are no "land mines" really in these threads. Except by those that want to create them.

The fact of the matter is that folks really want straight answers and honestly want to know how they might handle certain situations.
I sincerely agree with what you say Kevin. Some people just need to find out what the majority of us think about a certain situation.

One-Aiki,

Iking
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Old 11-09-2008, 07:39 PM   #77
Ketsan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
I also disagree with the claim fighting skill can't be taught. Strongly disagree.
TBH on reflection I don't like the term "fighting skill" for what I'm talking about. You can teach techniques and tactics, fine, no argument there, you can tune them to a fine pitch with sparring and competition, fine, again no argument.

I don't think the relaxed awareness, intuition or sensitivity to surroundings that allows someone to avoid trouble or maintain the initative through the prefight ritual can be taught though.
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Old 11-09-2008, 07:51 PM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.

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Old 11-10-2008, 08:42 AM   #79
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.
100%

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

You don't own what you can't defend
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:04 PM   #80
Ketsan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You CAN learn to relax, and gain intuition and sensitivity to your surroundings. It comes with time and experience. We train this stuff in the military all the time.
It's a different situation in the military though, you're immersed in a culture which teaches and expects this kind of thing.
Things are a little bit different, IMO, for someone studying MA out in civilian life, unless you're on an uchi deshi program or something and even then I doubt an uchi deshi program is as effective at implanting a mindset as the military is.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #81
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It's a different situation in the military though, you're immersed in a culture which teaches and expects this kind of thing.
Things are a little bit different, IMO, for someone studying MA out in civilian life, unless you're on an uchi deshi program or something and even then I doubt an uchi deshi program is as effective at implanting a mindset as the military is.
I'd say my bjj training has given me the same thing. I'm much calmer now in stressful situations and in the few events where I have been put to task I have performed in a manner very close to my actual training.

Alive training can teach the skills. What you can't teach is athletic ability. I can execute my techniques under stress as well as any other practitioner, but I will never be as fast and as strong as some of the natural talent. My body was designed to be a small computer nerd.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:42 PM   #82
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Your environment is your environment. People learn to adapt to them and learn how to be "street smart" in them.

Your statement was categorically that these things can't be taught.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "generally are not".

I would go for "generally not" and agree as aikido is normally not based on a "stress induction" model.

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Old 11-10-2008, 03:56 PM   #83
Ketsan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'd say my bjj training has given me the same thing. I'm much calmer now in stressful situations and in the few events where I have been put to task I have performed in a manner very close to my actual training.

Alive training can teach the skills. What you can't teach is athletic ability. I can execute my techniques under stress as well as any other practitioner, but I will never be as fast and as strong as some of the natural talent. My body was designed to be a small computer nerd.
Ah, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about anything at the start or during a fight or in any kind of stressful situation.
I'm talking about way before any of that

I'm talking about being switched on enough to see everything that happens in a public space even if there's nothing threatening going on.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:56 PM   #84
Aikibu
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

83 83 83 83 83 84 84 84 84

William Hazen
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:20 PM   #85
Ketsan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Your environment is your environment. People learn to adapt to them and learn how to be "street smart" in them.

Your statement was categorically that these things can't be taught.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "generally are not".

I would go for "generally not" and agree as aikido is normally not based on a "stress induction" model.
I think we're talking about two different things. I'm not talking about stress induction. I agree totally that all training makes you better able to deal with stress, no argument there.

I'm not talking about that though. I'm talking partly about being streetwise and switched on, but more about setting up an opponent mentally so that he becomes predictable.
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Old 11-10-2008, 04:42 PM   #86
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about that though. I'm talking partly about being streetwise and switched on
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Quote:
but more about setting up an opponent mentally so that he becomes predictable.
You need to fill yourself with ki for that.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:24 PM   #87
Ketsan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. The thing I've noticed about people that have grown up in rough environments is that they can smell trouble a mile off. They're aware of danger long before most people are.
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Old 11-10-2008, 05:46 PM   #88
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Well, yea, sure.

Most of us are keying in on the fact that you said Can't be trained.

I agree that folks that are from a certain area will typically be more in tune to the subtle differences than someone that is not from that area.

However, put someone in that environment and they will immediately begin to "learn" and "process"....that is, if they have half a wit about them or it is of concern to them.

Certainly there are folks that will never figure it out no matter where you put them or what you train them on!

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Old 11-11-2008, 08:52 AM   #89
Abasan
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Kevin, this aliveness you keep mentioning ... it it the mental alertness you gain from being in a volatile/dangerous environment? Kind of 'weapons live' situation? Is this how you train in aikido?

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:49 AM   #90
Flintstone
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Can be (re)trained. I mean, this is our natural state, but living in a peaceful environment makes us a bit deaf about the signals. Grow in or move to a dangerous environment and things start to change.
Actually I feel much more streetwise after my little Budo experience... 100% agree with this.
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Old 11-11-2008, 11:17 AM   #91
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
Kevin, this aliveness you keep mentioning ... it it the mental alertness you gain from being in a volatile/dangerous environment? Kind of 'weapons live' situation? Is this how you train in aikido?
From my perspective, no it is not the same thing I am talking about when talking about aliveness in training.

Aliveness in training is best explained by this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

We (at least in my aikido training) don't train for the "street environment". We have enough to concentrate on just working on aikido.

When you start talking about environmental parameters it can be different for everyone in the dojo depending on their jobs, situations, size, sex, communities etc.

I think you need to be very careful when you start injecting this stuff into the dojo environment. Philosophically I am somewhat against it as it can serve to breed the wrong things in folks. Hypervigilance, paranoria and fear, which I think are counterproductive to what we are trying to do in aikido. At least that is my opinion.

Not saying that you should not work with folks to teach them to be "smart" in these areas, just that you need to be careful about the balance of this type of training.

Police, military, and those that are "high risk" in these areas typically figure it out, or have other training that supplements "dojo" training.

Counter to this is producing "feel good" aikibunnies...well that too can be a problem! right?

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Old 11-11-2008, 12:39 PM   #92
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I think you need to be very careful when you start injecting this stuff into the dojo environment. Philosophically I am somewhat against it as it can serve to breed the wrong things in folks. Hypervigilance, paranoria and fear, which I think are counterproductive to what we are trying to do in aikido. At least that is my opinion.
...
Counter to this is producing "feel good" aikibunnies...well that too can be a problem! right?
Finding the balance...

I'd like to point to these articles by Toby Threadgill Sensei about stress induction in training an its effects.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=593
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=593
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:17 PM   #93
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Thanks for the links. I will be training with Threadgill sensei in 48 hours so I really appreciate the links!

I think he is spot on actually with his outlook on this. Sums it up very well.

Aliveness, IMO, is a big trainer of the PCS he discusses. Also teaches you to make appropriate responses (Timing) for the giving conditions, which while a part of PCS, I think timing is something separate.

WRT to "environmental awareness" I think PCS to be a little different based, although related.

Good stuff, and again thanks!

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Old 11-13-2008, 12:57 PM   #94
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09...eature=related
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:22 PM   #95
Ron Tisdale
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Saw that before, still makes me smile...

B,
R

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:13 PM   #96
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I ran across, what looks to be Aikido techniques used in MMA. Interesting to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09...eature=related
If you look at most aikido techniques you quickly see they are obvious in their effect (the same is true with 99% of all martial arts). The question is can you perform them repeatably in a high stress situation.

Given a guy's arm as in the last half of that clip I am sure I could twist it around like that, but much less sure I could break it with any reliability.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:19 PM   #97
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Don, that is really the crux of the whole issue. Aikido is a methodology, not a collection of techniques. Sure, I could troll through a bunch of fights and stop at points in many of them and say "yup" see, there is aikido. Of course, the princples are universal!

The issue is as you state, have you developed your abilities to the point that you can repeat it under very stressful conditions.

Then you get into the whole "high percentage" issue as well. "doing what works"...most of the time against the average joe in the typical situaiton.

I am betting I will still be piecing this together for myself for many, many years.

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Old 11-13-2008, 09:35 PM   #98
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Don,

Good question. Only repetitive practice under high stress situation will tell.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:37 PM   #99
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

Yes...agreed Salim!

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Old 11-14-2008, 01:51 AM   #100
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Re: aikido vs MMA figther

People take many different things from Aikido.
If you want your aikido to be effective as a self defense at some point in your training you need to train against someone who is physically trying to stop you from performing the technique. (ie resisting)

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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