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Old 09-21-2017, 06:52 AM   #26
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,931
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido and time

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I think that in martial arts absolute (wall clock) time is pretty much irrelevant. The time that matters is determined by the rhythm of your interaction with your opponent.

If you can read you opponent in advance or force his move you will experience a plenty-of-time feeling, as if the opponent is moving slower than you. On the other side of such interaction you will have the sense of running-out-of-time with your opponent being faster and ahead of you.
i believed the term you want is "timing" not "time". Thinking of wave (as in sine and cosine waves and so on) in which one of my teachers is fond of using the terms: "in phase" and "out of phase". I rode motorcycle and had numerous accidents where the bike and i got in touch with the ground at relatively high speed.

reality: bike and i falling toward the ground
from my point of view: i got plenty of time. hey! i need to kick myself off the bike so it won't land on me. hey! there is the pavement coming up. hey! i need to tuck and roll. hey!......
reality: bike sliding and flipping along the street. me, rolling and rolling and rolling and sliding and flat out stopping
me: @#$@!@@!#
reality: damn! that hurts! that's going to leave a mark or two! damn! the bike will need fixing!
me: ukemi worked on the street! thank god! I got full protective gears on. slapping the street with your hands, even with leather gloves on, is stupid! got to stop doing that!
reality: those damn greek philosophers never rode a motorcycle in their whole life! I felt off the bike, therefore i hurt.

I agreed with Peter that translating from original language is fraud with dangers. time and changes to the cultures of the languages make translating quite challenging. there was a time that i didn't understand that point, but as time went on, it changed my view, and as such, time changed all things.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 09-22-2017, 06:30 PM   #27
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 787
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido and time

I am ok with time. Timing is a method for shaping time in your favour. Misdirection is another method. Psychologically dominating the opponent is another.

The military speak of trading space for time.

In a conflict time is shaped by the participants.

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Old 09-23-2017, 03:49 AM   #28
StefanHultberg
Dojo: Roskilde
Location: Roskilde
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 35
Denmark
Offline
Re: Aikido and time

Dear Peter Sensei
Here are a few reactions to your very interesting points a few days ago. Your comments are in italics.

Perhaps keeping one's feet firmly on the ground is not the most appropriate metaphor for aikido, but it fits the type of training I have received from my own teachers, who were all Japanese and, with one exception, were direct students of Morihei Ueshiba. I learned from them especially the crucial importance of correct attacks. I also learned a little about Morihei Ueshiba. Ueshiba was a superbly gifted martial artist, with a formidable memory, who was also superb at reading the mind and intentions of the attacker. However, he was also strongly influenced by Onisaburo Deguchi and used Omoto as a vehicle for much of what he stated about aikido. I say, 'he stated', but you have to realize that his own disciples struggled to make sense of what Morihei Ueshiba said and almost all of what he stated about aikido was edited by these disciples. They probably did this with the best of intentions, but with the definite intention of placing him in a particular context, which is that of aikido as a new and emerging postwar Japanese ‘budo.' I have discussed these issues in some detail in my AikiWeb columns.

The point about keeping one's feet firmly on the ground is taken, but at the same time I live very much according to the "middle way". I believe earth and heaven both have contributions to make, so sometimes I stay in contact with the earth, sometimes I soar towards heaven. This is me, others may follow the path appropriate for them.

The point about the disciples struggling with the spirituality of O-Sensei is like a repeat of the story about Jesus and his disciples, even the editing and framing of a spiritual message into a particular setting. Presumably there may be spiritual gems in the original message that deserve investigation. Here I have had to rely on interpretations of O-Sensei's message -- provided by some of his followers.

Have you ever read anything by J M E McTaggart? He was a philosopher who believed in the unreality of time. I was introduced to his writings when I was a student. My major was modern philosophy, but I decided to begin at the beginning and go back to the Greeks, especially the threesome of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. One of my teachers also encouraged me to study empiricism, especially the other threesome of Locke, Berkeley and Hume. Since I had spent a few years in France studying existentialism, the study of Hume especially was a welcome return to the practice of keeping one's feet firmly on the ground when doing philosophy. In fact, the Greeks, especially Aristotle, were a good model.

I do wish I had your scholarly background. I am afraid my "scholarly" background is in the direction of geology/biology and (much later) strategy, especially the age-old strategy of conflict. Even later I turned to traditional Chinese medicine and shiatsu. My background, thus, has been in natural science, business, and some of the Chinese classics, not much philosophy. I am not familiar with the writings you mention, except the greek classics of course, but I will study them based on your kind recommendations.

I have looked at the questions you raise in your No 2 paragraph and one of the advantages of my own philosophical training was the focus my teachers placed on language and the importance of language in even stating philosophical problems. To take one question you ask: whether mind truly shapes reality. You emphasize "truly" with capitals and I wonder why you did this. This comes at the end of a whole string of questions and this makes me also wonder what you believe would count as an answer—either way. A revelation? Your question also assumes that mind is a general term, like time. Did you mean this, or did you mean something more specific, like your mind or my mind? I would be interested to see what aspects of aikido lead you to think that mind TRULY shapes reality.

The words "truly" and "mind" in the passage you refer to comes from my background within natural science combined with the style of writing I have adopted in my later years, when not having to write too many scientific articles or board/government reports anymore. I have written so many formal things in my life, writings where every word was weighed on gold-scales, but in internet discussions I have made the choice to formulate things a lot more "freely". I believe this can be a very good form of communication since it reveals more of the person behind the words and perhaps more of the actual thinking behind them. The questions that follow serve to clear up what lies behind the words while deepening the personal contact.

An elemental particle exists in an indeterminate state until observed by an "observer". This "observer" is supposed to have a consciousness (whatever that may be). I equated an observer's consciousness with the word "mind" in order to connect the physics to all the metaphors expressing the idea of "mind over matter". An observer, thus, can influence elemental particles -- instantaneously and over enormous distances. I used the word "truly" because I was considering the scale change from an elementary particle to, let's say, an attacker. It has been shown that an observer ("mind") can influence objects as big as "buckyballs", carbon molecules consisting of up to 5000 protons, neutrons, and electrons, collapsing the probability wave functions of these particles into a concrete manifestation, e.g. in connection with teleportation. This is a stunning example of "mind over matter", yes, but the scale of aikido involves rather more than 15.000 elementary particles.

Regarding my "string of questions" -- yes, revelation would be great, and many breakthroughs do come as sudden insights, manifestations, e.g. the discovery of the molecular structures of benzene and dna. Seriously, though, these questions are not really asked in order to receive answers. The questions are there to indicate possibilities and stimulate the mind (my mind at least). Sometimes there can be partial answers and sometimes the questions are enough as they are.

I should add that you are approaching Morihei Ueshiba in English translation. Are you sure that this is the best method for involving Ueshiba as a guide for answering the questions you ask? When I studied Greek philosophy, I began with the Greek originals and then looked at the translations in English French and German. Later, in Japan, I looked at the Japanese translations and found them very seriously wanting. One of the reasons for studying Morihei Ueshiba in Japanese, and also the Omoto background, was the unsatisfactory nature of the English translations that we have.

The simple answer to your questions is -- of course not. I do believe in reading things in the original language whenever possible. Philosophy, religious scripture, geological reviews, or "Fellowship of the ring". Something always changes in translation, not to mention taking writings from one cultural context to another. Whenever we're talking writings in English, the Nordic languages, German, Flemish/Dutch, Greek, and French I will read in original language. My Japanese, unfortunately, is still at dojo-level.

I could make a serious effort to seriously study Japanese -- and maybe I will, but in order to answer some of my questions Chinese could be quite important. Another contender for illumination is Sanskrit. The language of particle physics may be written down mostly in English, but it doesn't look like it. Thus, the questions regarding the nature of time also involve the mathematical language -- which is mostly far beyond my capacities.

On top of these considerations there are lawns that need mowing, grandchildren that need hugging, an elderly Mother to drink coffee with every now and then, places to visit, and good deeds that need doing. If my musings, inspired not least by the training in the dojo, lead me to try to approach O-Sensei's spiritual message it will, for the time being, have to be English. Thus, for the time being, I will have to live by the paradoxical and "tongue in cheek" words of Susan Jeffers: "Everything worth doing is worth doing badly".

Words may be in Japanese or English. I believe some of the deep questions can only be answered through training/revelation. The ineffable cannot easily be transmitted in any verbal language, but the words can support the process certainly.

En passant I may add that I am presently struggling with the words of Dogen regarding time and being -- "time is being". I would like to penetrate how he, in Japanese, constructs his message around "for the time being". Here availability of Japanese originals and understanding of the Japanese language would be most helpful.
In any case, I will make a serious effort to try to match your wisdom to my abilities and options as best I can. I will read what I can, listen to those that know much more than I, and practice diligently in the dojo.

Perhaps levitation is too soon for shodan and should be required for higher dan ranks, perhaps to match the larger size of the diploma and the increasingly smaller registration numbers?


I may not reach the levitation-stage in my present life, but I did feel quite lightheaded towards the end of my sandan grade test, so I believe I'm getting some of the hang of it.
Again, I am so grateful for your input. I look forward to future continued dialogue!!

Thank you so much, best regards

Stefan
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:34 AM   #29
StefanHultberg
Dojo: Roskilde
Location: Roskilde
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 35
Denmark
Offline
Re: Aikido and time

Quote:
Stefan Hultberg wrote: View Post
Dear Peter Sensei
Here are a few reactions to your very interesting points a few days ago. Your comments are in italics.

Perhaps keeping one's feet firmly on the ground is not the most appropriate metaphor for aikido, but it fits the type of training I have received from my own teachers, who were all Japanese and, with one exception, were direct students of Morihei Ueshiba. I learned from them especially the crucial importance of correct attacks. I also learned a little about Morihei Ueshiba. Ueshiba was a superbly gifted martial artist, with a formidable memory, who was also superb at reading the mind and intentions of the attacker. However, he was also strongly influenced by Onisaburo Deguchi and used Omoto as a vehicle for much of what he stated about aikido. I say, 'he stated', but you have to realize that his own disciples struggled to make sense of what Morihei Ueshiba said and almost all of what he stated about aikido was edited by these disciples. They probably did this with the best of intentions, but with the definite intention of placing him in a particular context, which is that of aikido as a new and emerging postwar Japanese ‘budo.' I have discussed these issues in some detail in my AikiWeb columns.

The point about keeping one's feet firmly on the ground is taken, but at the same time I live very much according to the "middle way". I believe earth and heaven both have contributions to make, so sometimes I stay in contact with the earth, sometimes I soar towards heaven. This is me, others may follow the path appropriate for them.

The point about the disciples struggling with the spirituality of O-Sensei is like a repeat of the story about Jesus and his disciples, even the editing and framing of a spiritual message into a particular setting. Presumably there may be spiritual gems in the original message that deserve investigation. Here I have had to rely on interpretations of O-Sensei's message -- provided by some of his followers.

Have you ever read anything by J M E McTaggart? He was a philosopher who believed in the unreality of time. I was introduced to his writings when I was a student. My major was modern philosophy, but I decided to begin at the beginning and go back to the Greeks, especially the threesome of Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. One of my teachers also encouraged me to study empiricism, especially the other threesome of Locke, Berkeley and Hume. Since I had spent a few years in France studying existentialism, the study of Hume especially was a welcome return to the practice of keeping one's feet firmly on the ground when doing philosophy. In fact, the Greeks, especially Aristotle, were a good model.

I do wish I had your scholarly background. I am afraid my "scholarly" background is in the direction of geology/biology and (much later) strategy, especially the age-old strategy of conflict. Even later I turned to traditional Chinese medicine and shiatsu. My background, thus, has been in natural science, business, and some of the Chinese classics, not much philosophy. I am not familiar with the writings you mention, except the greek classics of course, but I will study them based on your kind recommendations.

I have looked at the questions you raise in your No 2 paragraph and one of the advantages of my own philosophical training was the focus my teachers placed on language and the importance of language in even stating philosophical problems. To take one question you ask: whether mind truly shapes reality. You emphasize "truly" with capitals and I wonder why you did this. This comes at the end of a whole string of questions and this makes me also wonder what you believe would count as an answer—either way. A revelation? Your question also assumes that mind is a general term, like time. Did you mean this, or did you mean something more specific, like your mind or my mind? I would be interested to see what aspects of aikido lead you to think that mind TRULY shapes reality.

The words "truly" and "mind" in the passage you refer to comes from my background within natural science combined with the style of writing I have adopted in my later years, when not having to write too many scientific articles or board/government reports anymore. I have written so many formal things in my life, writings where every word was weighed on gold-scales, but in internet discussions I have made the choice to formulate things a lot more "freely". I believe this can be a very good form of communication since it reveals more of the person behind the words and perhaps more of the actual thinking behind them. The questions that follow serve to clear up what lies behind the words while deepening the personal contact.

An elemental particle exists in an indeterminate state until observed by an "observer". This "observer" is supposed to have a consciousness (whatever that may be). I equated an observer's consciousness with the word "mind" in order to connect the physics to all the metaphors expressing the idea of "mind over matter". An observer, thus, can influence elemental particles -- instantaneously and over enormous distances. I used the word "truly" because I was considering the scale change from an elementary particle to, let's say, an attacker. It has been shown that an observer ("mind") can influence objects as big as "buckyballs", carbon molecules consisting of up to 5000 protons, neutrons, and electrons, collapsing the probability wave functions of these particles into a concrete manifestation, e.g. in connection with teleportation. This is a stunning example of "mind over matter", yes, but the scale of aikido involves rather more than 15.000 elementary particles.

Regarding my "string of questions" -- yes, revelation would be great, and many breakthroughs do come as sudden insights, manifestations, e.g. the discovery of the molecular structures of benzene and dna. Seriously, though, these questions are not really asked in order to receive answers. The questions are there to indicate possibilities and stimulate the mind (my mind at least). Sometimes there can be partial answers and sometimes the questions are enough as they are.

I should add that you are approaching Morihei Ueshiba in English translation. Are you sure that this is the best method for involving Ueshiba as a guide for answering the questions you ask? When I studied Greek philosophy, I began with the Greek originals and then looked at the translations in English French and German. Later, in Japan, I looked at the Japanese translations and found them very seriously wanting. One of the reasons for studying Morihei Ueshiba in Japanese, and also the Omoto background, was the unsatisfactory nature of the English translations that we have.

The simple answer to your questions is -- of course not. I do believe in reading things in the original language whenever possible. Philosophy, religious scripture, geological reviews, or "Fellowship of the ring". Something always changes in translation, not to mention taking writings from one cultural context to another. Whenever we're talking writings in English, the Nordic languages, German, Flemish/Dutch, Greek, and French I will read in original language. My Japanese, unfortunately, is still at dojo-level.

I could make a serious effort to seriously study Japanese -- and maybe I will, but in order to answer some of my questions Chinese could be quite important. Another contender for illumination is Sanskrit. The language of particle physics may be written down mostly in English, but it doesn't look like it. Thus, the questions regarding the nature of time also involve the mathematical language -- which is mostly far beyond my capacities.

On top of these considerations there are lawns that need mowing, grandchildren that need hugging, an elderly Mother to drink coffee with every now and then, places to visit, and good deeds that need doing. If my musings, inspired not least by the training in the dojo, lead me to try to approach O-Sensei's spiritual message it will, for the time being, have to be English. Thus, for the time being, I will have to live by the paradoxical and "tongue in cheek" words of Susan Jeffers: "Everything worth doing is worth doing badly".

Words may be in Japanese or English. I believe some of the deep questions can only be answered through training/revelation. The ineffable cannot easily be transmitted in any verbal language, but the words can support the process certainly.

En passant I may add that I am presently struggling with the words of Dogen regarding time and being -- "time is being". I would like to penetrate how he, in Japanese, constructs his message around "for the time being". Here availability of Japanese originals and understanding of the Japanese language would be most helpful.
In any case, I will make a serious effort to try to match your wisdom to my abilities and options as best I can. I will read what I can, listen to those that know much more than I, and practice diligently in the dojo.

Perhaps levitation is too soon for shodan and should be required for higher dan ranks, perhaps to match the larger size of the diploma and the increasingly smaller registration numbers?


I may not reach the levitation-stage in my present life, but I did feel quite lightheaded towards the end of my sandan grade test, so I believe I'm getting some of the hang of it.
Again, I am so grateful for your input. I look forward to future continued dialogue!!

Thank you so much, best regards

Stefan
Ps. And here, a few weeks after writing this, Peter Sensei, I find myself looking at MIT, Oxford, Open University etc. homepages looking for distance learning bachelor courses - there may be hope for the old swede yet
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