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03-19-2007, 01:23 PM
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#51
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
I understand what you are saying Don. When I return to the U.S. I will be splitting my time between Lloyd Irvin's school, Alliance BJJ in Atlanta, when I can, and Aikido of Northern VA.
Obviously I won't be the best aikidoka, nor the best BJJ/MMA guy in the world, there are always trade offs!
I would love to get together with you at some point and work out, as it seems we see things in much the same way, and have had similar experiences. It'd be fun to see the similarities and differences in training!
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03-19-2007, 01:29 PM
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#52
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Eric,
Agree with your thoughts. However, I think one school of thought would say this: "if self defense is a concern of yours, then don't you owe it to yourself to train in the most effective ways possible that give you real skill, in as short amount of time, as efficiently as possible?""
I think this is the crux of why we end up with this issue in aikido, we confuse what and why we study what we do.
As you say though, there are better reasons and more logical reasons to study budo and aikido than self defense, which is the most illogical reason to spend all this time and money studying something that is an absolute inefficent delivery system for learning self defense!
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03-19-2007, 01:33 PM
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#53
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Quote:
Gee, this could be a quote from Dan, or Mike, in that other thread...what's it called...
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There is alot of things said, by alot of people in that thread. Not sure it is all logically organized, sorted out, and clear...chock full of emotion and assumptions! or maybe it is just not clear to me.
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03-19-2007, 01:46 PM
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#54
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Dojo: Ontario Martial Arts
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,423
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Ok so I think Kevin L. has the best idea so far regarding the throwdown. If we are having one however I wanna be a referee. Or better yet, one of those guys who check the ring girls for concealed items. Should I call HBO?
I find these threads funny since the folks who actually throwdown using Aikido (including those I know personally who are also on Aikiweb) hardly if ever post anything in these threads. Apparently they don't have all the questions a lot of folks here seem to be having.
Maybe it's Aikidoka Magic Pill Syndrome - since there is not enough actual testing by many to find out what works and why, everyone is looking for a quick "upgrade" that will give them an edge, or alternatively a method of indicating that it was never designed to "actually work physically", removing the need for any "martial upgrades".
I guess the newest pill/fix is "internal skills" it used to be Atemi being 99% of everything at one time or training in Daito Ryu to get that martial edge. Of course there is nothing new about these things wrt Aikido they're just unseen, like most good things in MA I guess.
Have fun folks.
Gambatte.
LC
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03-19-2007, 01:46 PM
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#55
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Location: Inglewood
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 52
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Quote:
Stan Baker wrote:
what dream, many of us in aikido have felt that the top aikidoist were on some high level control anybody with no effort. but in reality they would get there butts kicked by the best fighters.
st5an
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I think i understand your statement/question. My response is two-fold:
First; comparing Aikido with other martial arts in competition, to me, is false logic. To me, Aikido is in a different category than competition fighting, operating within completely different paradigms. The 'dream' as you you put it, is the world you have suggested, where the top 10 anyone fights the top 10 anyone else.
Second; it's the individual who makes the most of the their training. there is no individual style of martial art that is superior. there is no 'all things being equal' in battle. the advantage comes to those who came prepared.
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Barry Clemons
"The virtuous man is self-sufficient and undisturbed; not a slave of circumstance or emotion" - Zeno
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03-19-2007, 01:50 PM
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#56
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
Offline
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Yes Larry, I agree with your insights.
Now where did I put that pill???
Oh...something shiny, ahhh....pretty...
What were we talking about???
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03-19-2007, 02:00 PM
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#57
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Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
I would like to point out that at local MMA events, I usually serve one of two jobs. The first, a judge, which I enjoy, the second, I help ring girls into and out of the ring, this I truly enjoy.
I'd be down for a throwdown. I have attended one in chicago, and I'm trying to make time to attend one again.
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- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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03-19-2007, 02:12 PM
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#58
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
We have had a couple of get togethers here in Germany, more BJJ oriented, but fun none-the-less. Actually sometimes my normal classes are throwdowns being in the army, as you never know who is going to walk through the door on any given day with any given outlook or skill sets!
I simply LOVE training that way!
I am probably going to the Chicago area later this summer for an Adoption group reunion with some friends from the area. It would be great if it worked out!
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03-19-2007, 02:18 PM
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#59
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 768
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
pardon the interruption but.....
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
I understand what you are saying Don. When I return to the U.S. I will be splitting my time between Lloyd Irvin's school, Alliance BJJ in Atlanta, when I can, and Aikido of Northern VA!
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Kevin,
I'd love to hear what it's like training at Lloyd Irvin's school. I've heard that he has a unique methodology that focuses on transitions.
If you wouldn't mind posting what it's like.
Regards,
Paul
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03-19-2007, 03:08 PM
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#60
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Hi follks,
Can we please bring the focus of this thread back to aikido? Thank you.
-- Jun
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03-19-2007, 03:14 PM
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#61
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 92
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Kevin,
Sorry, off topic. You mentioned that Saotome is your Shihan. I'm looking forward to meeting him for the first time this weekend, as he is coming to our dojo. He is my Sensei's teacher. I've heard this should be quite an experience, but very crowded mat also. It would be nice to have more individual instruction, but with 60 on the mat, oh well.
Eric
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03-19-2007, 04:50 PM
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#62
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Paul: I won't be training with Lloyd Irvin's school until late July/August. I was referred there by Jacare Cavalcanti, 6 Dan BJJ.
Eric,
60 people is nothing on the mat! Go to Cherry Blossom seminar with a couple of 100! 60 is what they run at the DC dojo when he is in town! Consider 60 people not much and have a good time!
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03-20-2007, 06:23 AM
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#63
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Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
from looking at the response this looks like a good topic for inquiry, we can also consider how many fighters that are sixty or seventy could handle internal martial artists of the same age on another note I donot think we have to wait to be sixty to have great internal skills I think Dan Harden is trying very hard to make that point. and to prove that point just look at wang hai jun my taiji teacher at 35 has some of the most powerful internal power and skills I have ever seen.
stan
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03-20-2007, 08:06 AM
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#64
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Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,619
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Quote:
Dirk Hanss wrote:
OK, I set the rules: None, but the only tool is a live blade (katana).
Could be interesting, but I guess all the shihan would survive.
8 because choose, not to enter as they neither want to kill or to be killed. And two might enter, but probably your 2 best mma fighters will would withdraw.
Then all 20 survived. What is your view on that result?
Cheers Dirk
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Thanks Dirk.
For Stan: This an eternally pointless debate. It is neither about budo or bujutsu. Those are about war. " "War means fighting, and fighting means killing." This discussion is about play and sport, because it is most definitely not about life and death.
Saotome is reputed to have said once, pointing to his head:
"This is your trophy. You win, you keep your head."
I began Aikido under someone who was trained to kill for a living. He came to aikido at a critical point in his life. He described aikido to me as just as deadly serious on the life or death scale, but on the side of life -- O Sensei's "true budo." That stuck with me. I entered the killing profession myself. I found that I had to wrap my brain and heart around the problem of death and killing. I came to the same conclusion, and have continued in aikido with that intent.
You want to win in real fighting, well -- here ya go:
Quote:
WIlliam Tecumseh Sherman wrote:
I confess, without shame, that I am sick and tired of fighting—its glory is all moonshine; even success the most brilliant is over dead and mangled bodies, with the anguish and lamentations of distant families, appealing to me for sons, husbands, and fathers ... it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated ... that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.
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There is the problem O Sensei sought to solve -- through true budo.
If you just want to win a real fight, have a shotgun handy -- its quicker and less finicky. You may find, if you dwell on this point very seriously, that you do not like even imagining victory found in real fighting. If you find that you do like it -- well, we have places to help you with that, too.
"True victory -- self-victory. Come swiftly, O Day of Victory."
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Cordially,
Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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03-20-2007, 08:25 AM
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#65
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Dojo: Aikidoschule Trier
Location: Merzkirchen
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 470
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote:
Just wanted to step in and say that I appreciate the respectful tone that people have used in the latest posts in this thread. Thank you.
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Jun,
I am not sure, as your post came just a few minute after mine. nevertheless I take it personally.
Thanks very much Jun
Best regards Dirk
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03-20-2007, 10:54 AM
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#66
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Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Stan wrote:
Quote:
from looking at the response this looks like a good topic for inquiry, we can also consider how many fighters that are sixty or seventy could handle internal martial artists of the same age on another note I donot think we have to wait to be sixty to have great internal skills I think Dan Harden is trying very hard to make that point. and to prove that point just look at wang hai jun my taiji teacher at 35 has some of the most powerful internal power and skills I have ever seen.
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Really? i hadn't noticed!
Stan, so how do you define fighter? by what criteria do you judge a a fighter vice non-fighter?
How do you define success as a fighter?
I'd like a shot at "handling" a self defined internal martial artist of the same age (I am 42).
How do you define "handling" ?
what would be teh endstate to have to do to be judged as successfully "handling"?
constraints? limitations?
I really, honestly want to see how I measure up to the "internal" clubs standards.
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03-20-2007, 06:47 PM
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#67
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Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Offline
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Hi Kevin,
go and check it out then you will find out how you measure up.
stan
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03-20-2007, 09:15 PM
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#68
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Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Offline
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Re: Dan, Mike, and Aikido
Quote:
Stan Baker wrote:
Hi Craig,
your missing the point, take the ten best shihans ,and ten best fighters in the world. dream on if you want to.
stan
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Hey FANTASY MATCH UP, my nieces and nephews love these type of game on PS2.
Hey Stan, here is a thought...
When you grow up, study genetic engineering. Then extract the DNA of 10 past shihan and MMA fighter. Clone them, then make them do battle in a scientifically controlled environement. They eat the same food, sleep in the same type of place, live in the same type of environment etc. One of them study MMA, the other study aikido purely.
Then ask them to battle it out at age 5, 10, 15 , 20 and 25. Statistically analyze the results. After that Clone another new set and do a cross over studies. Wow, the result would be irrefutable.
That, my boy is how you do a scientific experiment. I suggest you get a head start Boy, genetic engineering is a very demanding field of studies. That means no more PS2 for you.
Boon.
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SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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03-20-2007, 09:28 PM
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#69
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Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
Offline
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
If it was only that easy. The diet needed to excel in MMA training would probably be too many calories for someone who trains only in aikido. Not to mention so many other variables. But we are off to a good start, who wants to collect the DNA samples....ewwwww
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- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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03-20-2007, 09:34 PM
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#70
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
Offline
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Hi folks,
Last request to please keep on-topic and away from personal attacks.
-- Jun
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03-20-2007, 09:58 PM
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#71
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Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Does anyone have any interviews or something like that where a shihan commented on UFC or maybe stated his opinion of Aikido and UFC?
Well, I started young, so you shall witness my Aikido in the octagon in a few years anyway. Bwaha.
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03-20-2007, 10:00 PM
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#72
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Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Offline
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Quote:
Roman Kremianski wrote:
Does anyone have any interviews or something like that where a shihan commented on UFC or maybe stated his opinion of Aikido and UFC?
Well, I started young, so you shall witness my Aikido in the octagon in a few years anyway. Bwaha.
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I read somewhere in an interview with Fedor E. The interviewer asked him specifically will Aikido work in the ring. Fedor E said NO.
Boon.
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SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
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03-20-2007, 10:04 PM
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#73
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Location: Auckland
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 971
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
What is Fedor's qualification to comment on Aikido?
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"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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03-20-2007, 10:05 PM
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#74
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Dojo: Toronto Aikikai
Location: Toronto, Canada
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 404
Offline
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Re: Shihan vs Fighters
Fedor is an Aikido Shihan now?
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