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10-22-2003, 02:42 AM
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#1
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Dojo: Victoria Jujitsu Academy
Location: Victoria BC
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 67
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Don't bottle up your ki-ai!
The kiai probably doesn't come easy or natural for most. Do you remember your first KIAI? Was it so soft it sounded like a chirp? Were you a little shy to really explode? Was is so loud that everyone stopped? Did you shout "HAI YAAAA" instead?
Aikido is about extension. The kiai is part of that extension.
To generate real explosive ki, the kiai is the focal point. One of my students bites his lower lip and his face becomes red (a sure sign of keeping your ki bottled up).
That equals a loss of power.
Don't strain...let it flow...and so then will your uke...and technique.
Cheers
Ari B.
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10-22-2003, 07:43 AM
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#2
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 166
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When we first moved into our new dojo there was a yoga studio above us that had a weekly class for pregnant ladies. The yoga people came to our teacher to ask him to tell us to quit yelling like that, I think they were afraid the kiai's would scare the fetuses. Though our piercing shouts were music to our teacher's ears, anyway he wanted to be considerate and he asked us not to kiai during the time frame of the pregnant ladies class. Funny, I don't think they ever complained about the loud booming noises we made as our bodies repeatedly hit the mat... maybe they figured we deserved the pounding...
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10-22-2003, 09:25 AM
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#3
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Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 6,049
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Then, again, there are those who would say that kiai need not be vocalized...
-- Jun
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10-22-2003, 12:39 PM
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#4
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Dojo: Victoria Jujitsu Academy
Location: Victoria BC
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 67
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Jun,
Expenditure of breath or simply exhaling could /would be sufficient.
There are as many kiais as there are aikidoka.
Ari
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10-22-2003, 02:18 PM
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#5
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Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 514
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Question:
Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai? I have never been taught to "say" a particular thing, and I think the varity one hears is interesting. Personally I favour a "heeee".
h/ vowel sounds seem the most common.
Mark
x
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10-22-2003, 03:41 PM
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#6
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Dojo: Victoria Jujitsu Academy
Location: Victoria BC
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 67
Offline
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yep.
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10-22-2003, 06:11 PM
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#7
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Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,902
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Quote:
Jun Akiyama (akiy) wrote:
Then, again, there are those who would say that kiai need not be vocalized...
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Aiki Koan: What is the sound of a kiai not vocalized?
If an Aikidoka kiais in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?
BTW, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) use kiai in our warm-ups but tend not to verbalize it during training. Curious.
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Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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10-22-2003, 07:48 PM
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#8
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Dojo: Seigi Dojo
Location: Jakarta
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 247
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during warm up we do kiai on funekogi undo (boat rowing exercise), but on practice we don't usually shout but we exhale loudly instead.
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10-27-2003, 09:18 AM
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#9
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Dojo: Mushinkan Dojo, Guildford
Location: Surrey, UK
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 106
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Quote:
Mark Walsh (markwalsh) wrote:
Question:
Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai?
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I was on a course once where the teacher was asking his uke (who was making quiet kiai's) whether what he was saying was japanese. I think what he mean't was 'What are you saying?'. In kotodama there are different meanings for each sound and if used in Aikido some would be appropriate at certain times and not at others. Basically what I'm saying is it is a science in which few people are knowledgable. So in summary I would not agree with above question. HOWEVER, I have heard it said that once at a certain level, these sounds will come out naturally!!!!
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10-27-2003, 11:27 AM
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#10
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Dojo: Jiyushinkan
Location: Monroe, Washington
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,134
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Quote:
Mark Walsh (markwalsh) wrote:
Question:
Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai?
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No. The kiai (manifested, focused energy that is extended) must match the intent that focuses the force. Intent that is meant to be sharp and explosive for instance can not have kiai (audible or inaudible) that is a "sigh". Intent to do something very softly and subtle cannot be accompanied by an strong "yaaaah!"
Last edited by Chuck Clark : 10-27-2003 at 11:34 AM.
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10-28-2003, 12:49 AM
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#11
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Location: Frederick, MD
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 509
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Quote:
Mark Walsh (markwalsh) wrote:
Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai?
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Nope.
As cousin Chuck commented, in the traditional budo systems, kiai is taught integral to the kihon and there are often very specific sounds associated with specific events. These sounds are not the kiai, however, they are training aids designed to assist you in creation of kiai.
Now, on the other hand, if you're just exhaling forcefully in order to empty the lungs, tighten the diaphragm, etc -- which is NOT generating kiai, by the way -- then probably just about any sound will do.
The other Chuck
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10-28-2003, 06:23 AM
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#12
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 695
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kiaijutsu.
Is this a martial art solely devoted to kiai?
Apparently the kiai of winter *is* silent...
from: Ellis Amdur
@ http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/art...?ArticleID=153
This is a statement that I have 'sat with" for many years. It is remarkably similar to the teachings of other martial arts which explain methods of using kiai (aiki with the characters reversed) to the same end. Kiaijutsu is usually assumed to be a loud shout, but that is only its most trivial expression. First of all, kiai is always a psychophysical method to organize one's own energy and will. At the same time, it is a method of affecting another's inner world. This can be for a variety of purposes: to understand another's intentions, to deceive them as to your own intentions, or to neutralize an opponent's strong points by manipulating spacing, timing, even breath. Kiaijutsu can be amazingly sophisticated, taking many years to master. For example, in the Jikishinkage-ryu, a mid-Edo period school of kenjutsu (sword fighting), there are four kiai each of which embodies a season. Not only do they sound different (winter, indeed, is silent), but the processes engendered within and between the expressor and opponent are as radically dissimilar as the seasons themselves.
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10-28-2003, 07:33 AM
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#13
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Location: Edinburgh
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 117
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I remember reading that Osensei said you cant do aikido without Kiai. Also has anyone seen any footage with sound of Osensei with out Kiai
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10-28-2003, 08:00 AM
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#14
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 166
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Hi Josh,
That is very interesting, is there any other literature or information existing that you know of which pertains to the Jikishinkage hojo and it's seasons/kiai?
Thanks for the previous info, more please...!
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10-28-2003, 08:53 AM
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#15
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Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
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The author of the article, Mr. Ellis Amdur, is an occasional poster on this very site. You can contact him through his profile here on AikiWeb.
Bronson
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"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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10-28-2003, 09:29 AM
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#16
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Dojo: Aikido of West Florida, Pensacola, FL
Location: Pensacola, FL
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 89
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What different kiais do y'all use out there? In Yoshukai Karate, the kiai we use is something like "hussss!" although sometimes during sparring or breaking I'll throw out a "haaahh!" or a "hi yaaahhh!". In Atarashii Naginata we call our strikes which could be considered a kiai such as "men!", "sune!", "do!", etc... I've never had an aikido instructor talk specifically about kiai, but it is not necessarily discouraged either. Although they may have and I just missed that class. I personally think the loud verbal kiai helps me a lot. I feel more focused when I do. It also reinforces proper breathing so that I exhale during strikes.
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A real man does not think of victory or defeat. He plunges recklessly towards an irrational death. By doing this, you will awaken from your dreams.
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10-28-2003, 10:55 AM
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#17
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 166
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Any one of these - 'Yah!' 'Ei!' 'Toh!' is recommended to us, we use those in our zen training too... our teacher likes the focus and 'kime' that a sharp kiai helps to bring out in strike or attack, and I remember him telling me once not to use a certain high-pitched shriek (which I personally find quite comfortable), as it indicated that my energy was all up in my throat and shoulders, he told me to let the kiai come from my hara instead; it seems he can tell by a person's kiai how their center/aikido is refining and stabilizing.
Last edited by kung fu hamster : 10-28-2003 at 10:57 AM.
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10-28-2003, 10:55 AM
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#18
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
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Quote:
What different kiais do y'all use out there?
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ha -- cutting
ya -- throwing
toh -- striking/atemi -- also for recieving
ei -- pinning, atemi, cutting with bokken
I usually try to 'seal the breath' at the end of the kiai, so they often sound as if they have a 'p' on the end (as in 'hap').
Word of caution...I have known strikers who wait to see if someone uses kiai...so they can time a hook, cross, or uppercut to break your jaw when you use kiai.
Ron
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Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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10-28-2003, 12:38 PM
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#19
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Dojo: Airenjuku Brighton
Location: On the road - UK
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 514
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Cheers for the help guys, much appreciated.
My seasonal kiai would have to be:
Autumn/ Winter - ooohhh (cold)
Spring - raaahhh (hormones)
Summer - sluuuurp (Stella)
Mark
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10-28-2003, 07:53 PM
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#20
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Dojo: Aikido Santa Fe
Location: Aragua Venezuela
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 130
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The thing is that theres an esencial difference between the sounds that comes out when a man "lives" on the upper part of his body than that ones from its lower abdomen that occurs when his lives "planted" and in close relation to earth.
Something that comes from the center is very solid, due to the fact that we Westerners mostly live in the upper part of our bodies always racionalising everything with a concept of "I" that is even bigger, makes our kiais sounding like screaming noises rather than beatiful sounds kiais.
A natural kiai comes from a relaxed concious center and it prevents those states of crispation which are originated on a "tensioned self" I believe that every correct kiai filling the above plus spirit, intent and proper unification get us closer to our very essencial form. Thats it.
Praetorian
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10-29-2003, 08:56 AM
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#21
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Location: Providence, RI
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 94
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Kiai?!
Really, I'm surprised that any Aikidoka kiai. Well, maybee not surprised, but a little confused/dissapointed. You see, as I heard it from a previous instructor, although the Kiai has a venerable tradition, and even a couple of good stories about Grand Old Masters (tm) who did incredible things with theirs (chopped wood, killed small animals, knocked their opponents physically back), the modern kiai has more pragmatic roots.
He said that it was something that mostly started with Funakoshi teaching his Karate to schoolchildren in Japan. He wanted to make sure they were breathing at the proper times. Which is to say, breathing out as they strike. While this is easy to do in a small class, when you have lots of them, all standing in a line, it's easier just to tell them to scream their fool heads off. You can tell if someone isn't shouting easier than watching for their breathing.
While I am not qualified to comment on the veracity of this history, I do know that a kiai causes you to tighten up, at the very least around the diaphram and hara, and usually elsewhere as well. This is actually antithetical to channeling good power into your strikes, and certainly just a bad idea in general if you're practicing a relaxed, flowing martial art. I know I have enough tension to get rid of without adding to it.
That being said, one would hope that at least Aikidoka would kiai "correctly", which is to say, from the center. I've run into a few people, especially a few TKD black belts who kiai'd like a particularly vicious squirrel being strangled. Squeaky, high pitched, and with utterly no force behind it. They said that it was meant to scare your opponent in a sparring match. Personally, I would have been more scared if they had kept their mouths shut.
Not that I have an opinion on the matter
Ted
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10-29-2003, 09:54 AM
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#22
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Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
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Re: Kiai?!
Quote:
Ted Marr wrote:
Really, I'm surprised that any Aikidoka kiai. Well, maybee not surprised, but a little confused/dissapointed. You see, as I heard it from a previous instructor....it was something that mostly started with Funakoshi teaching his Karate to schoolchildren in Japan.
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You heard it wrong. KIAI has long been a part of martial traditions in Japan long antedating Funakoshi. Btw, Ueshiba Morihei, Saito, and Saotome (as I have witnessed in person or on video) all KIAI.
Some teachers actively discourage it. I've heard from Kanai's students that he doesn't want to hear it, e.g. Don't know the rationale there.
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10-29-2003, 09:58 AM
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#23
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Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
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Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I usually try to 'seal the breath' at the end of the kiai, so they often sound as if they have a 'p' on the end (as in 'hap').
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Were you doing that practicing KOSHI GURUMA at Kondo's seminar?
This technique opened up a new avenue of training inquiry for me, actually. I couldn't understand the category "KOKYU" to which Kondo ascribed it: "Aren't they all KOKYU?" I reasoned. I then began playing with the exhalation and stopped stopping it (as you say you do above.) It seemed to make the technique much stronger.
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10-29-2003, 09:58 AM
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#24
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Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,615
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I actually know one MAist whose favorite kiai is based on the scream of a monkey...he constricts the throat to produce it. Doesn't sound beautiful, but he freezes **my** blood with it.
RT
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Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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10-29-2003, 11:42 AM
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#25
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Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
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Don't typically kiai with a verbalization. Will sometimes do a sharp exhalation from the diaphram.
Side story. One of my students is an ex TKD student. He was telling me that in his old school they were given sheets with written descriptions of the kata in Korean. He said that there were always people who would shout "KEEOP", which is the Korean word for kiai, because that's what was written in the description
Not very funny but I'm very tired from a visit to the emergency room early this morning which I'll probably relate in the current poll discussion...thanks for letting me babble
Bronson
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"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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