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Old 11-07-2002, 10:51 AM   #1
SeiserL
 
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Randori

Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

Until again,
Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-07-2002, 11:16 AM   #2
diesel
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Re: Randori

Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

Until again,

Lynn
Staying calm for one! Keep your cool when you have 3-5 people running at you, it is very nerve rattling!

uhm.. Sankyo and yonkyo can be your friend just dont get attached to them. Also remember your diashi<sp>. It's better to deflect the first few passes and get them slowed down.

Cheers,

Eric
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Old 11-07-2002, 11:32 AM   #3
akiy
 
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I'm guessing we're talking about randori in the sense of taninzudori (multiple person attacking exercise) rather than how it's defined in some approaches to aikido (freestyle, one-on-one).

George Ledyard put it nicely when he told me he thought randori involved the "conflict" between nage trying to line up the multiple uke into a line and the multiple uke trying to surround nage.

The most useful pieces of advice that I have received for randori has been:

1) Keep moving forward.

2) Enter into the spaces, not into the people.

3) Use movement, not techniques.

4) Stay out of the "middle" of the group.

5) Be assertive in your movements.

6) Stay away from "fancy" things like sutemiwaza.

7) Use atemi and kiai.

8) Keep breathing.

9) Maintain an open focus to take in the group.

... and ...

10) Practice randori regularly.

-- Jun

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Old 11-07-2002, 12:16 PM   #4
mike lee
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breath control

11) Eat a lot of garlic.
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Old 11-07-2002, 02:06 PM   #5
erikmenzel
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12) Imagine the uke you are in contact with to be a bowling ball and all the other uke to be bowling pins.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
kokoro o makuru taisanmen ni hirake
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Old 11-07-2002, 02:21 PM   #6
L. Camejo
 
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Timing, ma ai, controlling the rhythm of the attacks, zanshin and the use of simple, effective techniques over pretty ones that require so much time to execute that the ukes close on you.

Good application of sen timing works great too, you don't always have to sit there and wait for uke to attack you.

L.C.

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 11-07-2002, 02:33 PM   #7
Sean Moffatt
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Re: Randori

Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?

Until again,

Lynn
Important Strategy to learning randori:

Dedicate one hour a week to it's study.


You know you are famous when you have your own action figure.
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Old 11-07-2002, 02:48 PM   #8
MattRice
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-never wait: choose who will attack you when

-don't over commit to direction, you may have to change it suddenly

-let atemi guide entry

-control breathing

-use bodies as shields in a pinch

-use bodies as projectiles in a pinch

-laugh at yourself
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Old 11-07-2002, 07:23 PM   #9
MaylandL
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Did some randori this week. I can say that a lot of what is posted is very useful advice and does help in the randori. I found that I didnt do any of the techniques though there were occassions when I did use Ikkyo and sumi otoshi. I was surprised that there were times that I used kiai and that seemed to be beneficial.

I have got to work on my breathing, distance and tactics in terms of moving into the spaces and lining people up.

Looks like sensei will be focussing more on randori for the Yundansha grades over the next few months.

Glad you raised the thread Lynn and thanks for the pointers all. Its very timely. Happy training

Mayland
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Old 11-07-2002, 10:29 PM   #10
sanosuke
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Quote:
Curious, what do you believe are important points and strategies in learning Randori?
timing and distance, these two are the most important aspect in doing randori. then we also learn how to relax ourselves as multiple attackers coming. I also realized that randori teach us how to move efficiently.

strategies?, mmmm...I think always put your opponent within your vision range, never leave any opponent behind you.
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Old 11-08-2002, 01:55 AM   #11
Ta Kung
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I have yet to practise randori. We do practise jiu waza (sp?) sometimes, though. What do you people consider beeing a good time to start practising randori? After a year? Earlier? Two years?

/Patrik
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Old 11-08-2002, 03:06 AM   #12
Creature_of_the_id
 
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Breath, enter, Kokyo nage is your friend!, relax (i.e. don't be afriad)

Choose who attacks you by 'going at them'.

Don't judge your technique, when you have thrown someone forget about it and focus on the next one.

Have faith in your training.

"What do you people consider beeing a good time to start practising randori? After a year? Earlier? Two years?"

I personally like to start people off early with maybe one attacker and a set attack. Any technique can be done.

Then you change the attack, then over time you increase the speed and realism. Then over time increase the number of Ukes.

I think the time it takes to get to 'full' randori will vary for each person. With no practice of randori and just training I think it would take about a year and a half? to be able to cope with multiple attack.

With prior practice and building up obviously less... but, who's in a hurry?

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Old 11-08-2002, 08:41 AM   #13
ian
 
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I think the suprising thing is how nage controls the speed of the movement - if you start off relaxed and move gently around the mat (rather than spriting around) the control of the attacking ukes is much easier. Also, don't try and do technique - randori is definately one of these things where you must allow uke to commit to the attack - otherwise the grabs/strikes become half-hearted; once they are committed a response is possible. Also, generally no pins, and if someone is not actually trying to attack you, just walk past them (i.e. a half hearted grab or strike). Its very easy to think you have to DO something - the trick is to do as little as possible.

Ian

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-08-2002, 09:01 AM   #14
SeiserL
 
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I am impressed. Deepest compliments and appreciation.

As always; relax, breathe, and enjou yourself.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 11-08-2002, 09:33 AM   #15
Kevin Wilbanks
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I always used to have problems with even very limited variable randori, but lately I've been enjoying it and faring pretty well. Of course, a good bit of this confidence could be coming from the fact that the uke in my current training situation are mostly less experienced and aggressive, so take that as a qualifier. Nonetheless, I feel like I'm starting to get an intuitive handle on some of the principles.

I think the main problem I see and I used to have is letting the energy get too high up - around the arms and head. This tends to result in ukes not getting thrown, but just tangled up a little and pushed away. The solution seems to be to make sure to turn the hips and cut down, so that the uke are actually thrown and it takes them longer to get up and come back at you. I also think taking big steps helps.

Perhaps this is obvious, but as soon as you engage someone by touch, stop looking at them and deal with them only by feel, surveying the situation as you throw them.

I was always told to attempt to line up the uke so that you can deal with them one at a time. This used to seem like somewhat wishful thinking, but lately I seem to be able to do it. What made the difference? I get into a very aggressive mode and really go after each uke. I think of Toshiro Mifune taking on multiple attackers in an old movie... like I want the attackers to be thinking "Wait a minute! I thought we were attacking him?!" Anyway, it has been working - I line 'em up and plow right through them. A few times, I've noticed that I get to an uke before they are even ready to attack me - unlike the prior fellows advice, I just grab them and take them down, ready or not. If anyone else tries this tack, I'd like to hear about their experiences with it. It takes a lot of energy, but it seems to be the single best 'trick' I've found for randori.
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Old 11-08-2002, 10:40 AM   #16
Russ Qureshi
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I highly recommend George Ledyard Sensei's Randori Intensive. He usually conducts two intensives per year. If you want to know about strategy in randori he is the man! Here is his URL.

www.aikieast.com

Regards,

Russ
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Old 11-08-2002, 12:10 PM   #17
faramos
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Keep your head up, listen to you body move and above all else... Just Breath.
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Old 11-10-2002, 04:12 PM   #18
Trung Dinh
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Mr. Seiser,

I saw an awesome demonstration of randori by Phong Sensei this weekend. I'd be very interested to hear what you have learned from him on the essential points of randori.

By way of introduction, I studied with Hoa Newens Sensei who studied with Phong Sensei in Vietnam.

Trung
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Old 11-10-2002, 08:55 PM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
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For me the important thing I need to worry about is posture. I start out okay, but after a while (I'm a big guy) I break posture and start trying to lean into uke and push them around. It usually ends with me in trouble with someone on my back or pulling me down.

That said, moving-irimi/tenkan is the other most important thing.

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Old 11-10-2002, 09:21 PM   #20
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I've seen randori in which nage walks backward away from the attacks. I say, IRIMI, IRIMI, IRIMI!!!
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:08 AM   #21
Fiona D
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"I've seen randori in which nage walks backward away from the attacks. I say, IRIMI, IRIMI, IRIMI!!!"

In my last grading, the examiner had an interesting way of getting me around this problem. First I had to defend against a 2-person attack from the middle of the mat as normal, then starting from having my back against the wall (ie. having to move forwards or sideways) then, lastly, starting from being stuck in a corner so nowhere to go except forwards! Rather scary, but it worked.
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:07 AM   #22
mike lee
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cornered

Quote:
... lastly, starting from being stuck in a corner so nowhere to go except forwards!
Thanks for the idea my students will hate you for it!
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Old 11-11-2002, 03:49 PM   #23
bcole23
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Randori is where Aikido is at. I'm not that good at it yet, but this is my philosophy:

-As always breath, stay relaxed, and let go of yourself.

-At first, I don't do any technique at all. None. Zero. Just try to move.

-If you find yourself getting caught up in the attack, get back to your center any way you can and relax again.

-Getting smashed and "losing" for trying stuff out is OK. When learning and experimenting, you don't need to be perfect.

-Atemi.

-MOVE.

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Old 11-21-2002, 09:18 PM   #24
gi_grrl
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I've been focusing on positive / negative techniques in randori:

1. Big enter: don't wait for them to attack just get in there fast. I think of this as 'big feet, small hands' because your legs are doing most of the work and the atemi comes from the movement of your body.

2. Fly-by: let their movement carry them on past you, but give them some added momentum with your technique. This is 'big hands, small feet' because your arms, body and hips do the movement while you hold your ground and throw uke past you.
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Old 11-25-2002, 01:49 PM   #25
Doug Mathieu
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Hi

I have a question relating to all of this. Has anyone dealt very well with the bear hug?

I have been in and observed quite a few Jiyu Waza/Randori sessions and tests. It seems like that when ukes get tired of the play they go for a frontal bear hug and that finishes things very quickly.

Similarly even ryo kata tori grabs that are agressively applied are almost impossible to get out of or avoid when there are more than a couple ukes.

One thing I noticed is we don't usually use atemi. Maybe because we are to nervous of hurting uke more than a little.

In 11 years I have yet to see a Yudansha test where nage doesn't get pinned very quickly

(I count myself in that group). This includes up to 4th Dan.
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