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Old 03-09-2007, 08:11 AM   #51
aikidoc
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Speaking of style/tone. Communication is an interesting and challenging endeavor. One of my former students, when I was teaching at Memphis Aikikai, had a girlfriend he was always in a row with over about everything. They approached me, don't know why other than being a neutral 3rd party, and asked to see if I could help them iron out the conflict. After a long discussion, we discovered she grew up in an environment where love was expressed by arguing and fighting over issues. He on the other hand grew up in an environment where conflict was not only not an expression of love it was avoided and people discussed things in a more calm manner. Ultimately, they decided this was not going to work and amicably parted ways.

The lesson for me was to recognize that some thrive on conflict situations and others totally avoid it. I for one am in the avoidance category. My wife and I have been married 11 years and have never had a fight. We both realize the futility of conflict and see little need for verbal fisticuffs. I also don't recall ever getting into a verbal fight with my previous spouses either. That doesn't mean we did not have issues where we did not see eye to eye. We simply were able to work through them without contentious behavior. And we even work together every day.

FWIW we should all recognize people respond differently in such situations. Some need conflict while others hate it. By watching how we say things, we can still get our messages across in a respectful manner. Dennis leaving is unfortunate but this is not the first time. If I recall correctly, the Rev. Furuyu, may he rest in peace, also left the forum due to the brutal and disrespectful treatment he received by some. We lost the potentially valuable perspectives of someone with 47 years of aikido experience. He simply did not want to be involved with the behavior. His Buddhist training probably did not leave him to believe people were taking the middle path or for that matter had learned how to run their own brains in desirable manner. He did not hang around long once he started getting jumped on.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:56 AM   #52
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Even Shihan's have feelings.
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Old 03-09-2007, 08:58 AM   #53
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I've gotten disgusted and left twice. Over much the same issues as Dennis. In the recent flak I'd like to offer a thought I haven't seen mentioned yet
The threads that discuss these skills are few, very few in proportion to all the threads on the site. Yet they bring about the largest number of views. I can't help but corellate that to the number of folks who continue to question Aiki-do. It seems many folks realize the waza is empty of something they can't quite get a handle on. Those I have met who have felt this stuff have more or less said "Ah Hah!!" and they see that it is in fact the missing pieces. Odd, that they are now- after having felt it-simply saying what we have been saying- all along.
Folks it insn't about -who's- right.
Its about -what- is right.
All of us have or are discovering a couple truths. We've been lied to held back from or teacher outright donlt know.
Those of us who do know parts and pieces are sharing.

I dissagree with the notion of these discussions being placed in Open discussions. Why?
They are about the essence of Aiki-do. Aiki
Almost to a man folks here dissagreed with us.
Now, almost to a man every guy who has felt it....now agrees with us.
So relegating it to open discusions or off topic makes a clear statement. One that is actually in open defience of what many shihans in the art are either already doing themselves and not openly teaching, or are in fact researching and learning themselves.
No clearer statement could be made- other than showing up at the dojo with a pair of horse-in harness "blinders" on and doing the same thng for the NEXT ten years.
I think many folks who have felt it- would now agree.

Last, I will say that I've seen -some- people make perfect asses out of themselves in these debates and calling out folks with contrary ideas. I think I have been blunt but have always tried to be nice while arguing.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-09-2007 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:19 AM   #54
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I hate people; I really do! - I believe they are the root cause of all the problems the World faces today. My favorite pastime is sitting on my boat in a quite anchorage away from everyone on the Chesapeake bay, sucking down a cold-one, and just listening to the fish procreate.
I liked your examples Sensei.
I once had a pastor that said in church, "Christianity would be wonderful if it didn't have any people in it!"
The truth is that everything wrong in the world and anything that goes wrong has something to do with our human nature. We just can't stop being human. That's why I have always understood that being a leader in anything is a sacrifice if people are involved. The sacrifice is one of giving. No matter what authority you have, no matter how much money you make, no matter how famous you are or how much you are loved; if you are responsible for other humans, that factor will eventually weigh heavy on you until your leadership becomes a sacrifice on your part. It is when the giving that you do is borne out of benevolence for the good of others (sometimes called love), that what you do becomes service and then, you are on a new level. It is being at this new level that prevents a person from buying a cabin on the shore of the Chesapeake bay and living there permanently free from the rest of deficient humanity. Instead once recovered, we row back in and get in our cars and drive back to the job of helping broken humans, trying to do what we can for them in our weak and imperfect way.
The problem here is that where "everyman is a king", we can use our freedom for selfish ends and then courtesy, understanding and respect go out the window. A few of us have lived our lives in such a way, that we can't even recognize those things anymore.
Aikiweb is an artificial environment where we only get along if we all govern ourselves with the rules of a common courtesy. We cry out for moderation until we are given a moderator. Is it only with an authority, with a cop of sorts to give us warnings that we can behave? Can we self govern ourselves in an internet land of equals where we have the freedom to misbehave if we want?
If we can't and if we persist, it will be to our own ruin because we will drive down the quality of the forum until it will die a death of any meaningful discourse.
It may well be that this is out of all control because the immature can't get maturity quickly nor can they recognize their own immaturity. There are no winners or losers here because we are both from time to time. It's just that if we become abusive, then we will go down for sure.
I will say this that is true for all the internet forums. There are the good, the bad and the terrible posting. There are also some that are all four at different times but when the tone and tenor attracts the vultures and then, the immature and abusive congregate, It is then that the end is near and they will do their work and then Aikiweb will become so strictly moderated, that the forum will die a natural death. maybe that is as it should be. What a shame.

Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:22 AM   #55
aikidoc
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I don't want to take this off topic. But, a question/statement posed by Dan is interesting. Rick Clark years ago made the same comment on pressure point issues. Do the shihans who know the stuff really try to hide it from us or do they simply expect us to figure it out on our own? I think the Japanese style of teaching is a lot different from most Americans. They don't try to break it down for you, or at least a lot of them won't. THey demo, you do, or try to do. My sensei seems to be willing to help you learn and does break things down a lot, which I like. We get a lot of dame desu.
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Old 03-09-2007, 09:42 AM   #56
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Last, I will say that I've seen -some- people make perfect asses out of themselves in these debates and calling out folks with contrary ideas. I think I have been blunt but have always tried to be nice while arguing.
I think that for the most part that's a fair statement, not just for yourself but for Mike Sigman too. My irritation is mostly that a lot of these conversations remind me of the sort of people who come into my dojo and correct my aikido because when they did things that they 'think' I'm doing back in their karate/TKD/MMA dojo they did it differently and therefore they assume it is better than what I'm doing. They may have interesting things to say and may even be right. But it's my dojo, my art and my lesson, and more often than not they've missed what I was doing because they weren't listening, they were talking instead.

Respectfully

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:03 AM   #57
DarkShodan
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I don't need this abuse! If I want abuse I'll go home to my wife!

Ba dum dum!

Thank you! Thank you Aikiweb! I'll be here all week, two shows nightly! Don't forget to tip your waitresses! Try the nachos!

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:23 AM   #58
gregstec
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
I liked your examples Sensei. Jorge
Thanks for the comment - however, I am not a Sensei; just another guy that does Aikido...

Greg
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:24 AM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I think that for the most part that's a fair statement, not just for yourself but for Mike Sigman too. My irritation is mostly that a lot of these conversations remind me of the sort of people who come into my dojo and correct my aikido because when they did things that they 'think' I'm doing back in their karate/TKD/MMA dojo they did it differently and therefore they assume it is better than what I'm doing. They may have interesting things to say and may even be right. But it's my dojo, my art and my lesson, and more often than not they've missed what I was doing because they weren't listening, they were talking instead.

Respectfully

Mike
I think this is an interesting and continued example of the type of posts that are nothing but personal by this guy. He has nothing else to contribute, other than the comment that his teacher, yada, yada, can do the same things that Chen Xiao Wang can do.

When Dennis Hooker asked why some people posted on this forum, there weren't just one or two people, "outsiders", who responded.... there were a great number. These are people that left Aikido and a lot of them left because of the type of people who think they represent Aikido. One lady posted something a year or so ago about the constant passive-aggressive snipe-personalities that inhabit too much of Aikido and that's why she left.

Maybe the idea of "Subject/Tone" should be looked at from the perspective of both sides. So far, a lot of what I'm seeing is personal and vituperative attacks by people who think they are on the moral high-ground. I suggest again that they might be in a better position if they got more involved in "how to" posts, rather than in moralizing to others. There's a reason some very old friends of mine in Aikido don't post on this forum.... they're just as turned off by the quality of posters in the "old guard" as the "old guard is turned off by people who don't give them 'respect'. As Ellis indicated, the way around this silly problem is to simply ignore people you don't like and stick to the issues.... one of which is martial arts.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-09-2007, 10:47 AM   #60
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think this is an interesting and continued example of the type of posts that are nothing but personal by this guy. He has nothing else to contribute, other than the comment that his teacher, yada, yada, can do the same things that Chen Xiao Wang can do.
Now ask yourself who's making things personal here Mike? I believe my comments concerning my teacher and Chen Xiao Wang referred only to the kotegaeshi at the end of a clip posted by someone else (Ellis Amdur I think?). At least that was all they were intended to refer to, any other inference was poor writing on my part, and as far as that video clip went, I can do the same thing from kotegaeshi too, it isn't hard it's a simple trick.
Add me to your ignore list if it makes you feel better, I won't lose sleep over it. But perhaps you should take your own advice concerning ignoring people rather than trying to exhort others to ignore me, because I disagree with you and happen to find the tone of your posts sometimes condescending (and am willing to say so publically).

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 03-09-2007, 12:31 PM   #61
aikidoc
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Let's avoid turning this one into what we are talking about.
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Old 03-09-2007, 02:08 PM   #62
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I have seen this situation many times in many places. IMHO, it has never been a content/subject or insider/outsider situation. It is usually, as stated in the goodbye, the personal "tone" some people use to express themselves.

It always saddens me that some people cannot express themselves without their insecurity, arrogance, and ignorance becoming more important than the content/subject. It also saddens me that we have not learned to separate the message from the messenger and not get hooked into taking their attacks and observations seriously and personally. A lot of sadness today.

Oh well, back to training.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:19 AM   #63
dhebert
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I am reminded of this story:

..the old story of a king who sent to another king, saying, "Send me a blue pig with a black tail, or else ..." The other, in high dudgeon at the presumed insult, replied: "I have not got one, and if I had ..." On this weighty cause they went to war for many years. After a satiety of glories and miseries, they finally bethought them that, as their armies and resources were exhausted and their kingdoms mutually laid waste, it might be well enough to consult about the preliminaries of peace; but before this could be concluded, a diplomatic explanation was first needed of the insulting language which formed the ground of the quarrel. "What could you mean," said the second king to the first, "by saying, 'Send me blue pig with a black tail, or else...?' " "Why," said the other, " I meant a blue pig with a black tail, or else some other color. But," retorted he, "what did you mean by saying, 'I have not got one, and if I had ...' " "Why, of course, if I had, I should have sent it." An explanation which was entirely satisfactory, and peace was concluded accordingly.

-DH
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:02 PM   #64
gregstec
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

There is a good article on the Aikido Journal from Todd Jones on Angular Attacks. I would like to quote an excerpt from that article that I think is appropriate for this thread.

"Perception colors perspective. Perspective affects philosophy. What a person believes is a function of their intelligence, experience, education, and circumstance. Disagreement is usually a matter of insufficient commonality. When one or more parties to a disagreement are sufficiently lacking in experience (i.e. maturity and/or patience), we frequently observe physical altercations." Or, I may add, personal attack posts.

Greg
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:23 PM   #65
DH
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Perception does color everything...but so does experience.
Different experiences color opinions about things as well.
It is by far the most puzzling thing to me, to see folks here who previously doubted and even argued writing in and admitting they were wrong, and others writing in who really never doubted but honestly stated they had no clue, And now that these folks have met and experienced these skills they all agree they are germain to Aikido. Isn't that odd?

So once again their "experiences" have colored -their- perceptions and in turn-changed their opinions of things. In much the same ways you can now consider how our earlier experiences colored ours. In fact Ron Tisdale stated it bluntly that he doesn't always agree with my views- but he now has a clearer understanding why I have them and where I'm coming from.

As someone here stated after feeling these things. "Its like getting converted. Nothing looks the same again. You see a whole different reality in these arts.
I'm glad I remained nice. It led to me meeting these kind of folks. The real researchers. Everyone esle can keep doing waza and taking the very long road looking for something they may never find-real power.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-11-2007 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:37 PM   #66
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
So far, a lot of what I'm seeing is personal and vituperative attacks by people who think they are on the moral high-ground.
Indeed. Some people even have ~10 years of internet history doing just that on martial arts forums.

A secret of internal strength?:
"Let your weight from the crotch area BE in his hands."
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Old 03-11-2007, 12:52 PM   #67
DH
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Moral highground to me is how you act. I've seen folks disagree strongly and still be civil-even nice to one another. There is no justification in my view for arguing strongly, even gaining an advantage-and then being a jerk, just because you can or want too. None.
Dan
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:30 AM   #68
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I've seen folks disagree strongly and still be civil-even nice to one another.
IMHO, disagreement is an invitation to learn for both sides.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-12-2007, 07:25 AM   #69
DarkShodan
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

That's it!
I'm taking my Ki-Ball and going home!

*stomp* *stomp* *stomp*

Victims, aren't we all.
-- Eric Draven
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Old 03-12-2007, 08:40 AM   #70
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, disagreement is an invitation to learn for both sides.
I disagree!

Sorry Dr. Seiser, I couldn't resist.. I'll be crawling back into my cave now..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 03-12-2007, 10:32 AM   #71
aikidoc
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life: Create Your Life, Your Relationships, and Your World in Harmony with Your Values by Marshall Rosenberg.

This is the book I referred to previously.
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Old 03-12-2007, 11:05 AM   #72
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Wow, I just re-read my earlier posts, I must've been in a really bad mood last week. I'd like to apologise for being a cantankerous grouch if I may.

Regards

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:21 PM   #73
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Re: Baseline skillset

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
I am tired of the pompous attitudes the nastiness and the overall degradation of this thread. I am done with it and I am done with the Aikiweb.

Goodbye
Yeah, Aikiweb is beginning to depress me. I think I'll take a break for a while too.
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:10 AM   #74
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

I for one would never post on a forum where everyone agreed with me. I prefer to have my opinions challenged. It helps me grow as a person. I've never understood some of the forums on the web where everyone is in one happy group think about how great X is.

I also believe in treating everyone with the exact same respect I give people I meet in real life. I know a lot of people believe my message is wrong, or that my conclusions are incorrect, but rarely do I get told my attitude is poor.

Last edited by DonMagee : 03-22-2007 at 07:13 AM.

- Don
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:30 AM   #75
Jorge Garcia
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Re: Subject/Tone of Threads

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I for one would never post on a forum where everyone agreed with me. I prefer to have my opinions challenged. It helps me grow as a person. I've never understood some of the forums on the web where everyone is in one happy group think about how great X is.

I also believe in treating everyone with the exact same respect I give people I meet in real life. I know a lot of people believe my message is wrong, or that my conclusions are incorrect, but rarely do I get told my attitude is poor.
Your attitude is ok Don but I've been on this forum for years and never had everyone agree with me and I am sure that is the case for everyone else too. The difference is that we have a core group of posters who have come on disagreeing with most of the posters and insisting that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and our teachers too. When the teachers are mentioned, there are innuendos like, "They either know and won't share or they themselves don't know and they are teachers!" It sounds like a mockery of our teachers and I think that affected Dennis Hooker because he mentioned he didn't like the broad categorization of all Aikido teachers of which he is one.
When I joined the Daito ryu Roppokai and "felt" their aiki, it was different from anything I had ever felt. Their techniques were different than the techniques of Aikido. There were 5 Aikido instructors that went in together. We were amazed because what we saw and felt was what everyone said Aikido was. Roppokai aiki is minimum force with no effort and even small weak person can do it. We talked a lot trying to figure out what happened because we wondered if O Sensei knew this kind of Aiki and held it back to make himself appearer superior to his students. We figured that there is no way he got the KYOJU DAIRI from Takeda sensei and never learned this. In our talks, the discussion has gone two ways. Some believe what I just mentioned. I believe that he used this kind of aiki on people and that this describes when people said he threw me but "I don't know how he did it". Some Daito ryu people believe he did know it but kept the knowledge to himself. I have come to acknowledge that he didn't teach it as Aikido because he wanted Aikido to be categorized as different from Daito ryu.
Having said all that, none of us had the slightest idea to hit the Aikido forums with the kind of talk about internal skills and everyones teachers that we have heard on Aikiweb recently. This is the first time I mention this in 3 years and it will be the last. My own teacher doesn't do this but I respect deeply what he does do and it has a value of it's own equal to or greater than what I learned in Daito ryu. I guess the "group" that has launched all the talk can't see how they come across.
Maybe you guys have something, but nothing you all has said has made me want to learn it. What I have learned from Aikido is great. I'm not not about fighting or trying to be able to beat other people,. I want to avoid all fights. There is no victory for me in that. In this life, I can't become invincible enough and I won't. I train because I enjoy it and I seek and learn everyday.I feel no need to become a preacher on any forum telling others what they don't have.
I may someday stumble onto a teacher of "these skills" and who knows? I may learn them and love them but it won't be because someone talking like we have read here convinced me to go that route. The reason is the subject of this thread- the tone has been really poor but I guess in those testoserone filled gyms where you have reality matches and call people out and name BS as BS, the tone is different and maybe after so many years of being in that environment, the way you guys talk now IS polite in your own ears.

It just sounds like a group of guys that are lovin to be right. It sounds like they are saying,"We're better, we know we're better, you guys aren't as good as we are, you all should be with us. Your leaders lied to you or are incompetent. Aikido is BS, you guys need to get what we have and we're such great guys, that we will teach you. All your guys are finding out the real truth over here. We're better.

Maybe Dan, Mike and the others don't mean it like that but that is the way it sounds to some and it isn't very attractive. There is a saying that says the truth is like an apple of gold when it is spoken in due time. It is a "word fitly spoken". The raw unvarnished truth will often fail to get the response we are looking for. I think tactfulness was invented so that our message would get across without being perceived wrongly. It would have saved a lot of misunderstanding in this case.

Best wishes,
Jorge

"It is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training."
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